The problem with TAS, and a solution

2006-05-16 03:32:00 pm

http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/5-minute-mario-bros-speed-run

I already posted that, but until I had posted something and my post being moderator approved, it was three pages of people believing it was an actual speed run.

It came up as the ~8th or so search result for speed run on google.

Ekarderif

2006-05-17 11:23:42 am

Quote from 13M13:

So call them what their creators call them...TAS runs...

Joining the likes of Personal Identification Number numbers, Liquid Crystal Display displays, Redundant Array of Independent Disks arrays, and The TTP Project, we now have Tool Assisted Speedrun runs.

DJGrenola

2006-05-17 11:55:17 am

Don't forget Human Immunodeficiency Virus Virus.

Ekar, don't you have anything to say about all this stuff ? I'm sure quite a few of us would be interested to hear your take on it all, even though I'm determined to stay out of the fray this time.

Chanoire

2006-05-17 01:09:22 pm

Quote from Ekarderif:

Redundant Array of Independent Disks arrays

That one's supposed to be redundant, it says so in the name. >_>

Dragonfangs

2006-05-17 03:36:43 pm

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=516709&topic=28159010

I'd prefer if nobody intervenes.

USBCD36

2006-05-17 04:10:36 pm

I rest my case. Says "Tool Assisted" and all!

Hmm…and cheated. Maybe not…

Chanoire

2006-05-17 04:12:25 pm

It also says "cheated" and all.

nate

2006-05-17 04:15:42 pm

very cool. everyone please refrain from posting there no matter what you say or how badly you want to say it. this is a controlled experiment.

USBCD36

2006-05-17 04:18:11 pm

Two posts says they get referred to the tas page…

…

What?

I figured "hey, we're on a forum, so I'll bet posts!"

Also, DF, is that your username at GFAQs or something, or did a misinformed someone happen to see your run?

Dragonfangs

2006-05-17 04:30:57 pm

That would be my alternate account, which I never ever use.

A problem is that the account has like no karma, which a lot of GFAQers find important for credibility.

USBCD36

2006-05-17 04:42:10 pm

Also, the smart tags topic seems to have disappeared. Might it be possible to get tas added?

nate

2006-05-17 04:45:15 pm

temporarily removed for the duration of this topic.

spineshark

2006-05-17 05:29:29 pm

in the name of justice!

Quote from Dragonfangs:

A problem is that the account has like no karma, which a lot of GFAQers find important for credibility.

aren't we looking for no credibility? i could have done it too...

nate

2006-05-17 05:43:58 pm

not necessarily. slashdot etc post crap from anonymous people.

Rox

2006-05-17 06:11:15 pm

Just felt like throwing in something about "cheating" here... To cheat is to disobey the rules of a game. In other words, bypassing limits that were set by whoever made the game. Exactly anything that makes something qualify as a tool-assisted run bypasses some rule in one way or another. Thus, those runs are made by cheating.

Now, if I was making one, I wouldn't consider it cheating, because I'd have a different goal. Usually, one's goal in a game is to win. If you cheat, you do it to win with less effort. A sequence breaker or speedrunner might actually make things harder for themselves by setting new goals. So, with a *runner's objectives in mind, it's not really cheating. But then again... making your own goals in a game kinda bypasses the original rules, so... we're all cheating. There shouldn't really be any confusion about that.

*awaits responses in the GFAQs thread*

ZooM

2006-05-17 06:13:55 pm

Whatever the case may be, I will never use the word 'cheated' to describe a TAS.

Never.

And to be honest, I don't think I'll ever care how good somebody is against a computer opponent, so the whole TAS debate seems quite trivial to me.

I can sympathize with Nate, though. I mean, Red Scarlet's speed run 20-30 times? Yeah. When I read that I understood everything.

Ekarderif

2006-05-17 06:29:54 pm

Quote from DJGrenola:

Ekar, don't you have anything to say about all this stuff ? I'm sure quite a few of us would be interested to hear your take on it all, even though I'm determined to stay out of the fray this time.

Of course I do. I had rather remained neutral because there was no reason for me to get involved. But since you prodded...

Saying "tool assisted" has the exact same impact as saying "cheated". Most people will go, "Oh, that's using external tools. It's not legitimate." And it's hella less derogatory (similarly ambiguous though). If it was me, I'd just stick with "tool-assisted". (Keep in mind, I am most definitely not advocating "TAS". That term means shit to people who don't know any better. That and speed run is two words.)

Forcing Bisqwit to say "cheated" is not going to solve any problems. People will still rip the video off the site and post it where there are no explanations. The only ways to fix the problem completely is to kill the video in some manner. Having a splash screen is pointless because it's as useful as the explanations (oh boy, I can just rip the splash right off). Other fixes include having a little "CHEATED" symbol in a corner, or better yet, flashing a "THIS IS CHEATED" screen after every frame. I'm sure Bisqwit will enjoy doing that.

Nate can have his assertions. They just will never work. From what I've witnessed, nobody at Bisqwit will bother listening to him.

[quote="DJGrenola"]Ekar, don't you have anything to say about all this stuff ? I'm sure quite a few of us would be interested to hear your take on it all, even though I'm determined to stay out of the fray this time.[/quote]
Of course I do. I had rather remained neutral because there was no reason for me to get involved. But since you prodded...

Saying "tool assisted" has the exact same impact as saying "cheated". Most people will go, "Oh, that's using external tools. It's not legitimate." And it's hella less derogatory (similarly ambiguous though). If it was me, I'd just stick with "tool-assisted". (Keep in mind, I am most definitely [b]not[/b] advocating "TAS". That term means shit to people who don't know any better. That and speed run is two words.)

Forcing Bisqwit to say "cheated" is not going to solve any problems. People will still rip the video off the site and post it where there are no explanations. The only ways to fix the problem completely is to kill the video in some manner. Having a splash screen is pointless because it's as useful as the explanations (oh boy, I can just rip the splash right off). Other fixes include having a little "CHEATED" symbol in a corner, or better yet, flashing a "THIS IS CHEATED" screen after every frame. I'm sure Bisqwit will enjoy doing that.

Nate can have his assertions. They just will never work. From what I've witnessed, nobody at Bisqwit will bother listening to him.

DJGrenola

2006-05-17 06:38:55 pm

Quote from Ekarderif:

Quote from DJGrenola:

Ekar, don't you have anything to say about all this stuff ? I'm sure quite a few of us would be interested to hear your take on it all, even though I'm determined to stay out of the fray this time.

Of course I do. I had rather remained neutral because there was no reason for me to get involved. But since you prodded...

Saying "tool assisted" has the exact same impact as saying "cheated". Most people will go, "Oh, that's using external tools. It's not legitimate." And it's hella less derogatory (similarly ambiguous though). If it was me, I'd just stick with "tool-assisted". (Keep in mind, I am most definitely not advocating "TAS". That term means gunship to people who don't know any better. That and speed run is two words.)

Forcing Bisqwit to say "cheated" is not going to solve any problems. People will still rip the video off the site and post it where there are no explanations. The only ways to fix the problem completely is to kill the video in some manner. Having a splash screen is pointless because it's as useful as the explanations (oh boy, I can just rip the splash right off). Other fixes include having a little "CHEATED" symbol in a corner, or better yet, flashing a "THIS IS CHEATED" screen after every frame. I'm sure Bisqwit will enjoy doing that.

Nate can have his assertions. They just will never work. From what I've witnessed, nobody at Bisqwit will bother listening to him.

Thanks for replying - for what it's worth, I think I agree with pretty much everything you said.

[quote="Ekarderif"][quote="DJGrenola"]Ekar, don't you have anything to say about all this stuff ? I'm sure quite a few of us would be interested to hear your take on it all, even though I'm determined to stay out of the fray this time.[/quote]
Of course I do. I had rather remained neutral because there was no reason for me to get involved. But since you prodded...

Saying "tool assisted" has the exact same impact as saying "cheated". Most people will go, "Oh, that's using external tools. It's not legitimate." And it's hella less derogatory (similarly ambiguous though). If it was me, I'd just stick with "tool-assisted". (Keep in mind, I am most definitely [b]not[/b] advocating "TAS". That term means gunship to people who don't know any better. That and speed run is two words.)

Forcing Bisqwit to say "cheated" is not going to solve any problems. People will still rip the video off the site and post it where there are no explanations. The only ways to fix the problem completely is to kill the video in some manner. Having a splash screen is pointless because it's as useful as the explanations (oh boy, I can just rip the splash right off). Other fixes include having a little "CHEATED" symbol in a corner, or better yet, flashing a "THIS IS CHEATED" screen after every frame. I'm sure Bisqwit will enjoy doing that.

Nate can have his assertions. They just will never work. From what I've witnessed, nobody at Bisqwit will bother listening to him.[/quote]

Thanks for replying - for what it's worth, I think I agree with pretty much everything you said.

nate

2006-05-17 06:38:58 pm

cool, thanks for that. i agree with everything you said, but i think that putting both tool-assisted and cheated will work better than just one of them. also can throw in tas too for backward compatibility.

Yoshi348

2006-05-17 06:39:50 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Put Pikachu on there too. Cause he's Pikachu. Ooh! And some french fries. I do love them french fries...

Red Scarlet

2006-05-17 06:41:40 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from ZooM:

I can sympathize with Nate, though. I mean, Red Scarlet's speed run 20-30 times? Yeah. When I read that I understood everything.

At least it wasn't your run, amirite?
It would have been someone else's run had it not been mine.
Don't get what you're saying there.

ZooM

2006-05-17 07:00:37 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

It would have been someone else's run had it not been mine.

Exactly. The fact that he would be even willing to watch any run that many times means that he obviously loves this stuff. And that is why I can sympathize with his views, even though I may not agree with them totally.

Red Scarlet

2006-05-17 07:06:59 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Yeah, he even keeps tapes grouped together by the person.
He's very weird.

nate

2006-05-17 07:09:58 pm

;-[

RT-55J

2006-05-17 07:26:18 pm

Armor Guardian

Quote from Dragonfangs:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=516709&topic=28159010

Quote from The first poster in that topiX, Black_Mage_Nuke,:

T'would be better if it wasn't a tool assisted run.

I so feel like stabbing that poster with a knife. What kind of word is t'would? Seriously, WTF?