Quality of hacks from a casual perspective

2008-10-02 01:31:15 am

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

Quote from DonnyDonovan:

The recent trend of hack creators offering an easy and hard version of the same game (Cliffhanger, Precision, Golden Dawn) is an excellent one because more casual players can still experience the hack while hardcore SM players can also derive enjoyment.

I'm sorry but this is just not true. All of those 3 hacks needs you to play SM in befor hand and know quite a bit about it befor playing. Even if it is the easy version.

xpenzif

2008-10-02 02:06:19 am

I like your observation of zone rules. Zones get boring. Its fun to break the monotony of the zone with something unexpected. Like your crashed ship example. I can appreciate when the environment uncovers parts to a bigger story. Its also nice when the areas have a purpose. For example, in the original SM, part of crateria is built with metal blocks, but only because it was supposed to be the remains of the old torian. Anyways thanks for sharing your thoughts.

horscht(i)

2008-10-02 08:50:46 am

defrag in progress

As a casual SM player (not a hacker), I see some of the points. With some I disagree, though.

I cannot agree with points 5 and 7 on your list, because most of the new hacks like Volta or Aegis will have completely new maps with new areas, tiles and so on.

I agree with you in terms of "where is the shootable block" and far too complicated rooms, that are more frustration than anything else. I don`t think it`s a problem of the size of the room. It`s more a problem of how much "stuff" is packed into it, that might look good, but prevents you from seeing the next passage, the next morhpball area etc.

DonnyDonovan

2008-10-02 10:52:14 am

Quote:

I'm sorry but this is just not true. All of those 3 hacks needs you to play SM in befor hand and know quite a bit about it befor playing. Even if it is the easy version.

I am assuming that anyone who plays hacks has played through the original at least a couple times and is familiar with the original. To do otherwise is doing yourself a disservice.

To opium: There is a hard version of golden dawn. The original is the "easy" version, which I acknowledge is not the easiest of hacks.

J-SNAKE

(user is banned)

J-SNAKE

Edit history:

J-SNAKE: 2008-10-02 12:16:10 pm

2008-10-02 11:28:46 am

thats me

Quote from DonnyDonovan:

IMO, one of the three or four best videogames of all time.

DonnyDonovan:
So you cannot imagine new innovation which also covers more aspects in gameplay, right?

DonnyDonovan

2008-10-02 11:51:07 am

I'm afraid I don't understand your question.

J-SNAKE

(user is banned)

2008-10-02 12:15:43 pm

thats me

It is harder for me to understand how someone can say a game is the best or second best or... of ALL TIME. It implies you know all the game ideas of all times and their realisation ,
but it is alright: everyone has his own taste and personal opinion

Von Richter

Edit history:

Von Richter: 2008-10-02 02:46:41 pm

2008-10-02 12:44:33 pm

Quote from J-SNAKE:

It is harder for me to understand how someone can say a game is the best or second best or... of ALL TIME. It implies you know all the game ideas of all times and their realisation ,
but it is alright: everyone has his own taste and personal opinion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumptions

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/literalism

"Favorite of all time" is a commonly used phrase that comes with instantly understood qualifications and assumptions. It is intentionally exaggerated (anyone with a shred of common sense can see that nobody can live "for all time").

Now back on topic,
Who is to say that all hacks should cater to a 'general audience' in the first place? I for one prefer having a variety of hacks with different goals. Some are meant to offer an experience similar to SM, some are meant to eat top players for breakfast, some are just meant to look cool, some are meant to nearly break SM, etc.

[quote="J-SNAKE"]
It is harder for me to understand how someone can say a game is the best or second best or... of ALL TIME. It implies you know all the game ideas of all times  and their realisation ,
 but it is alright: everyone has his own taste and personal opinion  
[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumptions

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/literalism

"Favorite of all time" is a commonly used phrase that comes with instantly understood qualifications and assumptions. It is intentionally exaggerated (anyone with a shred of common sense can see that nobody can live "for all time").

Now back on topic, 
Who is to say that all hacks [i]should [/i]cater to a 'general audience' in the first place? I for one prefer having a variety of hacks with different goals. Some are meant to offer an experience similar to SM, some are meant to eat top players for breakfast, some are just meant to look cool, some are meant to nearly break SM, etc.

J-SNAKE

(user is banned)

J-SNAKE

Edit history:

J-SNAKE: 2008-10-02 01:49:01 pm

2008-10-02 01:21:19 pm

thats me

VR:
Yes, and that is why I am ready to talk about something. It is not that a small thing and can be asked or even discussed. But I am forcing no one, if the person is not interested to talk about it, then it is OK, but there is one thing that is bad: Just considering you: if you have no interest to read or talk about something, then you can say it straight away or just say NOTHING. It is a clear sign and it is OK.
But you gave me such a respectless answer (about "randomizing-idea") which just shows your disrespect and that you didn't imagine anything correct about it. But why answering something that way if you do not REALLY want to read and understand the idea and the correct dimension? Is it good manner? If you would say nothing I would leave it that way. There is a big difference.

Also, I wasn't talking to you, but to DonnyDonovan. A better manner is if you would contribute after our conversation is finished, but not crushing senseless from the side.

And if you still don't see it: I am still good natured to you and to everyone here. Wink

Don't worry guys, It is all. So go on now with more content Wink

VR: 
Yes, and that is why I am ready to talk about something. It is not that a small thing and can be asked or even discussed. But I am forcing no one, if the person is not interested to talk about it, then it is OK, but there is one thing that is bad: Just considering you: if you have no interest to read or talk about something, then you can say it straight away or just say NOTHING. It is a clear sign and it is OK. 
But you gave me such a respectless answer (about "randomizing-idea") which just shows your disrespect and that you didn't imagine anything correct about it. But why answering something that way if you do not REALLY want to read and understand the idea and the correct dimension? Is it good manner? If you would say nothing I would leave it that way. There is a big difference.

Also, I wasn't talking to you, but to DonnyDonovan. A better manner is if you would contribute after our conversation is finished, but not crushing senseless from the side.

And if you still don't see it: I am still good natured to you and to everyone here. :wink:

Don't worry guys, It is all. So go on now with more content :wink:

DonnyDonovan

2008-10-02 02:02:56 pm

I meant it was one of my 3 or 4 favorite videogames of all time (and of course I haven't played every game ever made), and while I probably could have expresed that more clearly, it also seems like a farily obvious point when taken in context.

VonRichter stated exactly what I stated in my first post in this thread. SM hacks are not "one size fits all" nor should they be. That's one of the nice things about the increasing number of choices out there.

J-SNAKE

(user is banned)

J-SNAKE

Edit history:

J-SNAKE: 2008-10-02 02:34:05 pm

2008-10-02 02:23:31 pm

thats me

Quote from DonnyDonovan:

SM hacks are not "one size fits all" nor should they be. That's one of the nice things about the increasing number of choices out there.

I agree with no doubt in general and I said the same. And that is why I wanted to go sure I understand you correctly, or not. Because sometetimes I am very interested what makes some people FEEL and THINK a certain game is the best of ALL times.

Alright then, just keep the thread going on. :-)

Quietus

2008-10-02 02:55:58 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Straying a little off topic here, but I always thought that saying anything along the lines of 'favourite games' automatically implies 'of the ones I've played'...

On topic: While I understand a lot of what has been said, I disagree with the topic in itself to a degree. My reason is that the normal order of things hack related is: Game released, game played to death, popularity wanes, hacking / modification becomes available, game life is extended as long as hacking / modding continues. But, I think it is rare for somebody to attempt / want to play a hack if they have not played the original. Why would somebody search for 'Super Metroid Hack' if they'd never played the game and had no idea what it was?

Therefore, as far as hacks go, almost everybody will have played the original game, so the whole thing is not new, so people don't get annoyed and quit.

Regarding the difficulty thing, you should also remember that most of the people who are creating hacks that are hard do not find them THAT hard. Yes, they're tough, yes they're frustrating at times, but they were designed that way for a reason. Also remember that some of the hackers are creating the hacks for themselves, so difficulty is irrelevant. If you enjoy their hack too, that's great. (I think it was Cardweaver who said about this...)

Straying a little off topic here, but I always thought that saying anything along the lines of 'favourite games' automatically implies 'of the ones I've played'...

On topic: While I understand a lot of what has been said, I disagree with the topic in itself to a degree.  My reason is that the normal order of things hack related is: Game released, game played to death, popularity wanes, hacking / modification becomes available, game life is extended as long as hacking / modding continues.  But, I think it is rare for somebody to attempt / want to play a hack if they have not played the original.  Why would somebody search for 'Super Metroid Hack' if they'd never played the game and had no idea what it was?

Therefore, as far as hacks go, almost everybody will have played the original game, so the whole thing is not new, so people don't get annoyed and quit.

Regarding the difficulty thing, you should also remember that most of the people who are creating hacks that are hard do not find them THAT hard.  Yes, they're tough, yes they're frustrating at times, but they were designed that way for a reason.  Also remember that some of the hackers are creating the hacks for themselves, so difficulty is irrelevant.  If you enjoy their hack too, that's great.  (I think it was Cardweaver who said about this...)

Crys

2008-10-02 04:18:19 pm

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

Quote from Quietus:

Therefore, as far as hacks go, almost everybody will have played the original game, so the whole thing is not new, so people don't get annoyed and quit.

I'm not sure if did think before posting that. Or even read up at all. Even some hackers dislike hard type hacks.
Like me for example.

It's true that you don't look for a SM hack if you have not played SM. But on the other hand; You may look for a SM hack that is around the same as SM in difficulty! Thats what I do at least. And I have yet to find one. *hint hint *
:/

DonnyDonovan

2008-10-02 04:39:32 pm

I'd say Legacy and SFI are about the same difficulty as the original, if only a little bit harder.

Zeku

2008-10-02 06:45:54 pm

Doom modding has been going on for even longer than Super Metroid has existed, and user levels containing the following characteristics:

1. ultra-difficulty (masters only, and still annoying)
2. high-difficulty (you'll have to play it 2-10+ times to beat each area)
3. 'original game' difficulty (first time victory)
4. powerful aesthetic content
5. recreating emotional impact of the original

have all coexisted with each other perfectly, and are still being released.

I only mention this, because it's the levels that combine 2+4, or 2+5 that are powerfully received and remembered by the modding community. Maps with characteristics of 1 or 3 are never mentioned again, not even in archived old 'best of' lists.

You shouldn't take this personally, it's just an observation of mine, intended to be informative.

Acheron

2008-10-02 07:08:24 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Quote from Zeku:

some stuff

Fair enough, but there are some hacks (Redesign, Cliffhanger, GD) that definitely achieve 2, 4, and 5 as far as the majority of the community here are concerned. I think your first post would have been much more palatable if you'd acknowledged this at some point. :|

Zeku

Edit history:

Zeku: 2008-10-02 10:57:59 pm

2008-10-02 10:50:57 pm

I don't think that's in question.

What's in question is whether the preference of players zealous enough to spend 365 days a year talking about and working on one particular game series is really meaningful outside this rarified setting, or capable of drawing in new fans, or even applicable to anyone else.

I guess the question in my mind is whether the Metroid2002 community (an awesome and intelligent group from memory-after all, you like Metroid) wants the attention of more casual hack fans? Maybe everyone concerned kind of likes the village atmosphere, and all I'm doing here is stomping on cupcakes.

DSDrew7

2008-10-02 11:03:59 pm

Break the chains!

Acheron, if im flaming im sorry but Zeku, look at all the threads and tell me exactly what Im not seeing (especially on the sticky threads).

Acheron

Edit history:

Acheron: 2008-10-02 11:15:56 pm

2008-10-02 11:13:47 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

I don't really know what you do to draw in more attention. If you google "metroid forum" this is the first place that comes up. Anyone who searches "metroid hack" will find EP's site first. We're clearly the definitive place... the community for Super Metroid hacking. You want us to make different kinds of hacks? How will that draw in people that aren't looking for hacks already? :|

I just don't think the "casual hack fans" you're talking about exist except as exceptional cases. Anyone who likes a game enough to play custom-made hacky versions of it is already by definition no longer being "casual". I agree with you about difficulty and quality... but there does not exist a hacking community wherein the ratio of crap to not-crap isn't ridiculously one-sided. You will always have at least 20 shitty or mediocre hacks for every 1 good one. Go look at Zelda Classic or Super Mario World hacking if you need an idea of what I mean.

The hacking community for SM is very young yet. It takes time for people to produce quality hacks... we're still finding our place, figuring out what to make. Until this year, Redesign was the only full-hack that stood as any sort of inspiration. That, plus the fact that SM hacking is inherently more time-consuming and difficult than other types of ROM hacks, are pretty good explanations for why the truly "casual" hacks are few and far between. I still don't see how you aren't basically saying "guys, I'm not a hacker, but I think you all could be doing better at making hacks I would like."

Note I'm not accusing you here of that attitude, I understand it's not your intent, but that's sort of the rub of it. Your post would probably get similar results in any ROM hacking community, not "because you're wrong" or "because you're stupid" but because you don't seem to understand or appreciate the endeavor behind ROM hacking, nor have you grasped why the majority of bad hacks are bad in the first place. The former I mention because you can't really understand how hard a job it is until you're doing it; the latter I say because:
-everyone starts somewhere, so some hacks will always be bad; they're a learning experience
-some people simply lack the creative talent or the time but still want to produce something
-hacking is a form of creation, an artistic endeavor of sorts, and is not always done for an audience
These are all points any hacker quickly realizes; they are the reason I find your suggestions so frustrating, because they are not based on the reality that defines the grudge-work and mental drudgery hacking will be for anyone who isn't really cut out for the job of a revolutionary hack like you're looking for. By reading your thread, I feel like you are treading on the efforts of people who want to be that good but haven't got there yet, and you're putting down the work of those who have gotten there by trivializing it (which is why I wish you had mentioned the good hacks, so that I had some indication you understood their significance and rarity).

Anyway, it's unlikely you'll understand my intent in posting this, because these are the internets and as such are serious business. I can only hope you understand this is not a personal accusation or a grudge; this is me asking you to step up and show me why you are qualified to tell us how to do what we do. Blow me away and make a full hack of excellent quality, and tell me it's easy... then I will happily concede the point (and beg you to teach us all how to do it). Otherwise, I'm not trying to toss your ideas aside or make you feel ignored, but I'll be forced to conclude your ideas are not tethered to the reality we create hacks in, because it seems to me that you'd raise the bar higher than even the best of us can meet, whether you realize it or not.

Edit: Should have mentioned this earlier, but making a good full-hack is far more time-consuming than designing a Doom map, for obvious reasons.

I don't really know what you do to draw in more attention. If you google "metroid forum" this is the first place that comes up. Anyone who searches "metroid hack" will find EP's site first. We're clearly the definitive place... [i]the[/i] community for Super Metroid hacking. You want us to make different kinds of hacks? How will that draw in people that aren't looking for hacks already? :|

I just don't think the "casual hack fans" you're talking about exist except as exceptional cases. Anyone who likes a game enough to play custom-made hacky versions of it is already by definition no longer being "casual". I agree with you about difficulty and quality... but there does not exist a hacking community wherein the ratio of crap to not-crap isn't ridiculously one-sided. You will always have at least 20 shitty or mediocre hacks for every 1 good one. Go look at Zelda Classic or Super Mario World hacking if you need an idea of what I mean.

The hacking community for SM is very young yet. It takes time for people to produce quality hacks... we're still finding our place, figuring out what to make. Until this year, Redesign was the [i]only[/i] full-hack that stood as any sort of inspiration. That, plus the fact that SM hacking is inherently more time-consuming and difficult than other types of ROM hacks, are pretty good explanations for why the truly "casual" hacks are few and far between. I still don't see how you aren't basically saying "guys, I'm not a hacker, but I think you all could be doing better at making hacks I would like."

Note I'm not [i]accusing[/i] you here of that attitude, I understand it's not your intent, but that's sort of the rub of it. Your post would probably get similar results in [i]any[/i] ROM hacking community, not "because you're wrong" or "because you're stupid" but because you don't seem to understand or appreciate the endeavor behind ROM hacking, nor have you grasped why the majority of bad hacks are bad in the first place. The former I mention because you can't really understand how hard a job it is until you're doing it; the latter I say because:
-everyone starts somewhere, so some hacks will always be bad; they're a learning experience
-some people simply lack the creative talent or the time but still want to produce something
-hacking is a form of creation, an artistic endeavor of sorts, and is not always done for an audience
These are all points any hacker quickly realizes; they are the reason I find your suggestions so frustrating, because they are not based on the reality that defines the grudge-work and mental drudgery hacking will be for anyone who isn't [i]really[/i] cut out for the job of a revolutionary hack like you're looking for. By reading your thread, I feel like you are treading on the efforts of people who want to be that good but haven't got there yet, and you're putting down the work of those who have gotten there by trivializing it (which is why I wish you had mentioned the good hacks, so that I had [i]some[/i] indication you understood their significance and rarity).

Anyway, it's unlikely you'll understand my intent in posting this, because these are the internets and as such are serious business. I can only hope you understand this is not a personal accusation or a grudge; this is me asking you to step up and show me why you are qualified to tell us how to do what we do. Blow me away and make a full hack of excellent quality, and tell me it's easy... then I will happily concede the point (and beg you to teach us all how to do it). Otherwise, I'm not trying to toss your ideas aside or make you feel ignored, but I'll be forced to conclude your ideas are not tethered to the reality we create hacks in, because it seems to me that you'd raise the bar higher than even the best of us can meet, whether you realize it or not.

Edit: Should have mentioned this earlier, but making a good full-hack is far more time-consuming than designing a Doom map, for obvious reasons.

Opium

2008-10-03 04:15:07 am

Acheron you're reading his post from the perspective of a hacker and I'm reading it from the perspective of a player. I think he just wants to see hacks that are more mainstream in the difficulty department. No he doesnt know what goes into hacking, and neither do I but I at least know this: I don't understand it and won't assume that I do understand it, therefore I won't comment on hacking itself, only on the results of the hacking from a players perspective. Maybe he overstepped the hacker/player line with some of his comments, but I got the basic point he was trying to make:

Let's see some more hacks that appeal to the mainstream in terms of challenge.

Quietus

2008-10-03 08:24:08 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Crys:

Quote from Quietus:

Therefore, as far as hacks go, almost everybody will have played the original game, so the whole thing is not new, so people don't get annoyed and quit.

I'm not sure if did think before posting that. Or even read up at all. Even some hackers dislike hard type hacks.

Perhaps I should have clarified that my two paragraphs (the one you quoted and the one above) were aimed at the original post in this thread, about them being hard for casual players.

I was trying to say that it was unlikely that anybody would play these hacks if they didn't have experience with the original game, so they wouldn't see them as THAT hard compared to a player that just decided to play a hack for the sake of it.

For example, I feel fairly confident in saying that a random player that played Redesign would struggle, whereas anybody that had played Super Metroid (particularly as much as some of us) found the difficulty to be just fine.

Perhaps it could've been worded a little more clearly, but I don't think it'll end the world. :)

Also, for the record, I too fall in to the category of exploration / original difficulty over hard hacks.

[quote="Crys"]
[quote="Quietus"]Therefore, as far as hacks go, almost everybody will have played the original game, so the whole thing is not new, so people don't get annoyed and quit.[/quote]
I'm not sure if did think before posting that. Or even read up at all. Even some hackers dislike hard type hacks.
[/quote]

Perhaps I should have clarified that my two paragraphs (the one you quoted and the one above) were aimed at the original post in this thread, about them being hard for casual players.

I was trying to say that it was unlikely that anybody would play these hacks if they didn't have experience with the original game, so they wouldn't see them as THAT hard compared to a player that just decided to play a hack for the sake of it.

For example, I feel fairly confident in saying that a random player that played Redesign would struggle, whereas anybody that had played Super Metroid (particularly as much as some of us) found the difficulty to be just fine.

Perhaps it could've been worded a little more clearly, but I don't think it'll end the world.  :)

Also, for the record, I too fall in to the category of exploration / original difficulty over hard hacks.

Acheron

2008-10-03 09:10:09 am

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Quote from Acheron86:

Anyway, it's unlikely you'll understand my intent in posting this, because these are the internets and as such are serious business. I can only hope you understand this is not a personal accusation or a grudge; this is me asking you to step up and show me why you are qualified to tell us how to do what we do.

I'm not sure there exists a good way to say "that's fine, this is your opinion, now let me explain why I think you're wrong" on the internet. I tried above, but it looks like I was misunderstood. Personally, this is a form of discourse for me; a player said some things about hacks, and I expressed where I disagree with his points. Through this I hope to inform him and everyone about why the current situation is the way it is, and why it may take some time to change, and why I think a player urging us onward when the community is still so young is not necessarily a good thing.

More than anything, what concerns me is the possibility that any number of hackers on this forum may feel disappointed or frustrated with the feedback they receive, or that they might interpret this thread as an attack of sorts (and I realize it isn't such a thing, but it can come off that way). I guess I just feel like someone needs to speak up for the hackers on why things are the way they are.

[quote="Acheron86"]Anyway, it's unlikely you'll understand my intent in posting this, because these are the internets and as such are serious business. I can only hope you understand this is not a personal accusation or a grudge; this is me asking you to step up and show me why you are qualified to tell us how to do what we do.
[/quote]

I'm not sure there exists a good way to say "that's fine, this is your opinion, now let me explain why I think you're wrong" on the internet. I tried above, but it looks like I was misunderstood. Personally, this is a form of discourse for me; a player said some things about hacks, and I expressed where I disagree with his points. Through this I hope to inform him and everyone about why the current situation is the way it is, and why it may take some time to change, and why I think a player urging us onward when the community is still so young is not necessarily a good thing.

More than anything, what concerns me is the possibility that any number of hackers on this forum may feel disappointed or frustrated with the feedback they receive, or that they might interpret this thread as an attack of sorts (and I realize it isn't such a thing, but it can come off that way). I guess I just feel like someone needs to speak up for the hackers on why things are the way they are.

J-SNAKE

(user is banned)

J-SNAKE

Edit history:

J-SNAKE: 2008-10-03 10:06:20 am

2008-10-03 09:40:46 am

thats me

What I don't get: WHY do some feel so offended IF they "only make hacks for fun". Is it really true then? Wouldn't you stay cool then if you are making it "only for fun" and assumingly not for the general audience?

Then why don't you just remove this thread directly? But personally I see more sense to change the discussion to what Von Richter
suggested:

Quote from Von Richter:

Now back on topic,
Who is to say that all hacks should cater to a 'general audience' in the first place? I for one prefer having a variety of hacks with different goals. Some are meant to offer an experience similar to SM, some are meant to eat top players for breakfast, some are just meant to look cool, some are meant to nearly break SM, etc.

Acheron

2008-10-03 10:24:50 am

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

I don't remove threads because I'm not going to rule with an iron fist. This sort of discussion is perfectly fine.

Making a hack should be for fun but that doesn't mean it isn't more satisfying if others enjoy it as well. Arguably, an artist should paint to express himself, but he'd probably be happier if someone else appreciated his work. Likewise, making something that you're proud of and having someone else tell you it sucks is always a discouragement, even if you didn't do it for anyone else. That's basic human nature.

J-SNAKE

(user is banned)

2008-10-03 10:59:25 am

thats me

Yes, but this was only one person here and there always are some guys who don't understand and appreciate the artists work. It cannot be healthful that you are reacting like thousends of people want putting down your arts. One time explaining is fine but don't defending oneself for no sensefull reason.

Anyway, back on topic. Wink