Quality of hacks from a casual perspective

Edit history:

Zeku: 2008-09-29 11:10:43 pm

2008-09-29 06:39:11 pm

I haven't been actively reading this forum since ZM came out. (a prisoner of WoW)

Recently I took a day off and played through the first 30 minutes or so of many of the hacks discussed here, as well as Redesign, which I didn't see here, and I have some comments.

1. These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty. (That is not the same thing as saying "It's too hard.") I'm aware that savestates are available, but I really curious why you think this really makes any difference? If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process. This is not any more fun, nor is it any better gameplay than just blowing through a typically easy exploration session.

2. There's way too much detail in all of these hacks. This is a departure from typical game-modding, where detail is critical. If I play through an above average FPS level, I expect it to have a lot of detail. Here in super metroid, it's like strolling through a junk-yard. Sure, every tile is important. But the location that you're exploring is even more important, because the environment is completely stylized. I think long-time players tend to forget that a side-scroller is a preposterously artificial experience. Noone wants to see more pipes winding around, or more tiny passages that need to be navigated with 10 suit powerups. They want to be transported to a place where their imagination can fill in the details and say "Hey, this is a representation of a real place." "Hey I just walked into a cave!" "Hey something mechanical was built right into the hardened lava here!"

3. Finding places to shoot. The first time I was required to find a shot block in Fusion, just to progress, is the same moment that I mentally placed it dead-last on the quality list. When designing your gameplay, think in terms of foundations: The foundation of the gameplay must be:

A. Walk in the front door
B. Kill stuff right in front of you
C. Collect the items right there

This is the entire game. What makes a game great, is when it takes this foundation and adds all kinds of goodies. Goodies include: awesome environments, shootable blocks, visual secrets, map secrets, difficult areas, alternate pathways, sequence breaking, etc. Without the foundation, all those goodies are just painful jabs in the eye.

4. Massive maze rooms. Bzzzt. Nothing should actually be worse than Maridia or the left side of Wrecked Ship. There's a reason why that's the least fun part of the game. For many of these hacks, the first room is the size of a basketball stadium with 15 smaller rooms all jammed into it. Those rooms suck. Try to think of what makes a single room fun, and challenge yourself to make it as small as possible, not as large as possible. I'll give you a hint, it's often visible items or passages. If you have too many however, it's like going to the shopping mall; overwhelming and tedious. I strongly believe that no room should have more than 1 gimmick or idea in it, and that gimmick can just be a visual style.

5. "Return to Zebes." I realize there's a limit to how much can be changed, but SM was cool because you were returning to the location of Metroid 1!!! Going back here yet again, just because you can, is probably the most boring idea I can think of, like watching old Cheers reruns. Sure, they were funny the first 10 times....There has to be a new story, a new reason, a new location, and it must be told visually, not with words.

6. Crossovers. Overlapping progression routes. Think 'the breakable water tube,' except not endlessly hammered into the skull like that one is. Start with your simple, finished, room, and mentally connect it with something else before proceeding. It can be as simple as a couple of power bomb doors in an early room. One in the ceiling, one in the floor, and there's your new passage to the last area of the game. It's 10x better if they look like they belong there.

7. OMG not Brinstar again. You may be cool with getting funky with the plants 10 minutes in, but I've just about had it with that. There's no need to follow the zone rules of the first game. For example, the second or third room could be some Wrecked Ship rooms that are the 'entrance' to some lower (or upper) caverns, an entrance that never existed until the ship crashed. Naturally, the rest of the Wrecked Ship might not be avilable till later.

etc. More creativity and less 'gameplay.' I really feel like the essence of the first game is completely missing from these hacks, and I feel sad that so much effort is being wasted on me. I can't play them, they're just not fun.

Thread title:

I haven't been actively reading this forum since ZM came out.  (a prisoner of WoW)

Recently I took a day off and played through the first 30 minutes or so of many of the hacks discussed here, as well as Redesign, which I didn't see here, and I have some comments.

1.  These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty.  (That is not the same thing as saying "It's too hard.")  I'm aware that savestates are available, but I really curious why you think this really makes any difference?  If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process.  This is not any more fun, nor is it any better gameplay than just blowing through a typically easy exploration session.

2.  There's way too much detail in all of these hacks.  This is a departure from typical game-modding, where detail is critical.  If I play through an above average FPS level, I expect it to have a lot of detail.  Here in super metroid, it's like strolling through a junk-yard.  Sure, every tile is important.  But the location that you're exploring is even more important, because the environment is completely stylized.  I think long-time players tend to forget that a side-scroller is a preposterously artificial experience.  Noone wants to see more pipes winding around, or more tiny passages that need to be navigated with 10 suit powerups.  They want to be transported to a place where their imagination can fill in the details and say "Hey, this is a representation of a real place."  "Hey I just walked into a cave!"  "Hey something mechanical was built right into the hardened lava here!"

3.  Finding places to shoot.  The first time I was required to find a shot block in Fusion, just to progress, is the same moment that I mentally placed it dead-last on the quality list.  When designing your gameplay, think in terms of foundations:  The foundation of the gameplay must be:

A.  Walk in the front door
B.  Kill stuff right in front of you
C.  Collect the items right there

This is the entire game.  What makes a game great, is when it takes this foundation and adds all kinds of goodies.  Goodies include:  awesome environments, shootable blocks, visual secrets, map secrets, difficult areas, alternate pathways, sequence breaking, etc.  Without the foundation, all those goodies are just painful jabs in the eye.

4.  Massive maze rooms.  Bzzzt.  Nothing should actually be worse than Maridia or the left side of Wrecked Ship.  There's a reason why that's the least fun part of the game.  For many of these hacks, the first room is the size of a basketball stadium with 15 smaller rooms all jammed into it.  Those rooms suck.  Try to think of what makes a single room fun, and challenge yourself to make it as small as possible, not as large as possible.  I'll give you a hint, it's often visible items or passages.  If you have too many however, it's like going to the shopping mall; overwhelming and tedious.  I strongly believe that no room should have more than 1 gimmick or idea in it, and that gimmick can just be a visual style.

5.  "Return to Zebes."  I realize there's a limit to how much can be changed, but SM was cool because you were returning to the location of Metroid 1!!!  Going back here yet again, just because you can, is probably the most boring idea I can think of, like watching old Cheers reruns.  Sure, they were funny the first 10 times....There has to be a new story, a new reason, a new location, and it must be told visually, not with words.

6.  Crossovers.  Overlapping progression routes.  Think 'the breakable water tube,' except not endlessly hammered into the skull like that one is.  Start with your simple, finished, room, and mentally connect it with something else before proceeding.  It can be as simple as a couple of power bomb doors in an early room.  One in the ceiling, one in the floor, and there's your new passage to the last area of the game.  It's 10x better if they look like they belong there.

7.  OMG not Brinstar again.  You may be cool with getting funky with the plants 10 minutes in, but I've just about had it with that.  There's no need to follow the zone rules of the first game.  For example, the second or third room could be some Wrecked Ship rooms that are the 'entrance' to some lower (or upper) caverns, an entrance that never existed until the ship crashed.  Naturally, the rest of the Wrecked Ship might not be avilable till later.

etc.  More creativity and less 'gameplay.'  I really feel like the essence of the first game is completely missing from these hacks, and I feel sad that so much effort is being wasted on me.  I can't play them, they're just not fun.

Acheron

2008-09-29 06:51:22 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

You're:
-not a hacker
-not up to date with hacking

Yet you wall of text'd us anyway. :|

Whatever, they are legitimate issues and I agree that there's some weaknesses. Still, the SM hacking scene is still new, and people are just learning, so don't sound so expectant. Calling people's first hacks a waste of effort is going to turn them off from doing a second one. You could afford to be a little encouraging.

It also sounds like you really like Redesign, which is fine, but even Redesign had its flaws, and not everyone wants to or can afford to aim that high in the first place.

I get irked when someone no one knows shows up and talks down to a lot of people who are honestly trying. Maybe that's not your intent, but it's how you're coming off. Also, have you played Cliffhanger easy mode? It knocks a lot of your complaints out of the park. If you haven't you should, and if you have you could've acknowledge it so we'd actually know where you're coming from.

On the other hand I think the community is tired of hard hacks and half hacks, so you'll see some changes soon, just be patient.

You're:
-not a hacker
-not up to date with hacking

Yet you wall of text'd us anyway. :|

Whatever, they are legitimate issues and I agree that there's some weaknesses. Still, the SM hacking scene is still new, and people are just learning, so don't sound so expectant. Calling people's first hacks a waste of effort is going to turn them off from doing a second one. You could afford to be a little encouraging.

It also sounds like you really like Redesign, which is fine, but even Redesign had its flaws, and not everyone wants to or can afford to aim that high in the first place.

I get irked when someone no one knows shows up and talks down to a lot of people who are honestly trying. Maybe that's not your intent, but it's how you're coming off. Also, have you played Cliffhanger easy mode? It knocks a lot of your complaints out of the park. If you haven't you should, and if you have you could've acknowledge it so we'd actually know where you're coming from.

On the other hand I think the community is tired of hard hacks and half hacks, so you'll see some changes soon, just be patient.

Bioniclegenius

2008-09-29 06:52:13 pm

Fear Me! (Or else...)

~~Yay! First post!~~
Rats... Beaten to it.

I have to agree with a lot of what you said. For some reason, though, I think that number 4 was aimed at me in particular...
Anyways, the junkyard is an accurate simile. People do tend to place to many things in one room at a time, and most people don't spend enough time testing to catch tiling errors and places you can get stuck. As to the difficulty thing, I agree. It gets pretty boring when you have to redo one thing over and over and over again, just to get it right. It ought to be difficult enough that it challenges you, but shouldn't take more than, say, two tries to get it right.
As to the detail level, people put too much and place too much emphasis on the backgrounds and inside large solid blocks - the detail should be on the outside, where you can interact with it. Also, it's nice to actually have some small hint as to where hidden passages are - otherwise, what's the point if nobody ever finds them?
The enemies shouldn't probably be right next to the door, or right next to each other. It'd be really nice if they actually had some space in between them (Think the original plasma beam room), and the items should be somewhere inside, not after a series of five rooms, all jam-packed with enemies.
As to the backtrack thing, I agree. I liked especially how in the original metroid, after Kraid, you were subtly led back to the start, and could go back and get things, if you wanted. It was also nice to go back, and suddenly realize, "Hey! I can go into that yellow door now!"
As to a new area, we ought to have new grounds, and new looks to each section. It'd also be nice to not go to Zebes time after time after time after time after time - eventually, you've exhausted that idea. It's better if we expand the space station, or something like that. I mean, come on, it was meant for several thousands of people to live on, and you only see about 4 dead people and five rooms. Go back to old areas that didn't get enough attention - it's nice to relive something and recognize something that you thought you would never see again.
All in all, that was a lot of really good points brought up. Thanks, Zeku!

[s]Yay! First post![/s]
Rats... Beaten to it.

I have to agree with a lot of what you said. For some reason, though, I think that number 4 was aimed at me in particular...
Anyways, the junkyard is an accurate simile. People do tend to place to many things in one room at a time, and most people don't spend enough time testing to catch tiling errors and places you can get stuck. As to the difficulty thing, I agree. It gets pretty boring when you have to redo one thing over and over and over again, just to get it right. It ought to be difficult enough that it challenges you, but shouldn't take more than, say, two tries to get it right.
    As to the detail level, people put too much and place too much emphasis on the backgrounds and inside large solid blocks - the detail should be on the outside, where you can interact with it. Also, it's nice to actually have some small hint as to where hidden passages are - otherwise, what's the point if nobody ever finds them?
    The enemies shouldn't probably be right next to the door, or right next to each other. It'd be really nice if they actually had some space in between them (Think the original plasma beam room), and the items should be somewhere inside, not after a series of five rooms, all jam-packed with enemies.
    As to the backtrack thing, I agree. I liked especially how in the original metroid, after Kraid, you were subtly led back to the start, and could go back and get things, if you wanted. It was also nice to go back, and suddenly realize, "Hey! I can go into that yellow door now!"
    As to a new area, we ought to have new grounds, and new looks to each section. It'd also be nice to not go to Zebes time after time after time after time after time - eventually, you've exhausted that idea. It's better if we expand the space station, or something like that. I mean, come on, it was meant for several thousands of people to live on, and you only see about 4 dead people and five rooms. Go back to old areas that didn't get enough attention - it's nice to relive something and recognize something that you thought you would never see again.
    All in all, that was a lot of really good points brought up. Thanks, Zeku!

Bolognab

2008-09-29 07:12:27 pm

Quote from Bioniclegenius:

I have to agree with a lot of what you said. For some reason, though, I think that number 4 was aimed at me in particular...

How can he take a jab at you if you've never made a hack?

Anyway, this post seems to me out of the blue:

1. I like how you generalize and mash different hackers into one vague group. The only hard hacks I remember are mine, Saturn's, Dmantra's, and maybe Cardweaver's.

2/3.

Quote:

A. Walk in the front door
B. Kill stuff right in front of you
C. Collect the goodies right there

Hate to get all jsnake and stuff, but you want to simplify the gameplay so that it's so linear that all you do is run around and kill stuff? The original Super Metroid has more game deepness then what you described. There has to be a mix of all the values of Super Metroid to make an actual hack. @Point 2: You want less detail in games? Uhhh....okay?

4. Well this is a blatant opinion. Big mazes are bad sometimes. But I don't remember any mazes in left wrecked-ship, nor it being "not fun."

5. I agree that new stories need to be backed by visuals. Every hack with new storylines never implemented it in any manner or form, other than Redesign.

6. Yup?

7. I don't really understand this. You don't like Brinstar?

[quote="Bioniclegenius"]
    I have to agree with a lot of what you said. For some reason, though, I think that number 4 was aimed at me in particular...
[/quote]
How can he take a jab at you if you've never made a hack?

Anyway, this post seems to me out of the blue:

1. I like how you generalize and mash different hackers into one vague group. The only hard hacks I remember are mine, Saturn's, Dmantra's, and maybe Cardweaver's.

2/3. 
[quote]A.  Walk in the front door
B.  Kill stuff right in front of you
C.  Collect the goodies right there[/quote]
Hate to get all jsnake and stuff, but you want to simplify the gameplay so that it's so linear that all you do is run around and kill stuff? The original Super Metroid has more game deepness then what you described. There has to be a mix of all the values of Super Metroid to make an actual hack. @Point 2: You want less detail in games? Uhhh....okay?

4. Well this is a blatant opinion. Big mazes are bad sometimes. But I don't remember any mazes in left wrecked-ship, nor it being "not fun."

5. I agree that new stories need to be backed by visuals. Every hack with new storylines never implemented it in any manner or form, other than Redesign.

6. Yup?

7. I don't really understand this. You don't like Brinstar?

Pheonix

2008-09-29 07:29:21 pm

(sic)

What I think he means by 7 is that the areas in a hack should be mixed up - and not have the same area progression as the original (Surface, Plant Area, Fire Cave Area, Ship Area, Water Area).
My current plans fall into the second area as a plant area trap, unfortunately. At least it won't have water being a big feature of one of the areas.

Quietus

2008-09-29 07:30:33 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Bolognab:

Hate to get all jsnake and stuff

I think that this comment is entirely inappropriate. If you can't say anything nice... :|

Quote from Acheron86:

On the other hand I think the community is tired of hard hacks and half hacks, so you'll see some changes soon, just be patient.

I second this notion. It am fairly certain that DMantra and FirePhoenix0 are both working on hacks that focus on exploration rather than difficulty. Join us and cheer them on! grin new

Opium

2008-09-29 07:44:15 pm

Redesign was hard?

Anyways, did you even play Legacy?

InsomniaDMX

2008-09-29 07:53:49 pm

--Lawrence of Arrakis--

Quote from Quietus:

It am fairly certain that DMantra and FirePhoenix0 are both working on hacks that focus on exploration rather than difficulty. Join us and cheer them on!

He speaks the truth! I can tell you from firsthand experience that DMantra is most definitely building a hack that will please you.

Bioniclegenius

2008-09-29 08:07:10 pm

Fear Me! (Or else...)

Quote from Bolognab:

Quote from Bioniclegenius:

I have to agree with a lot of what you said. For some reason, though, I think that number 4 was aimed at me in particular...

How can he take a jab at you if you've never made a hack?

Don't you remember my training patch? Man, now that I look back on that, that was a nightmare... Still, for a first attempt using SMILE, I think it was reasonable.
Btw, when you say:

Quote from Bolognab:

You don't like Brinstar?

,I think (tell me if I'm wrong - I don't want to put words in your mouth) that he means that we tend to waaay overdo the plants. We put in too many of them, and it clutters up the screen and is unnecessary detail, thus pointing back to the detail remark. It draws your attention away from the game itself, and doesn't look good if you overdo it at all.

Deep_Space_Observer

Edit history:

Deep_Space_Observer: 2008-09-29 08:29:02 pm

2008-09-29 08:24:57 pm

Quote from Zeku:

Recently I took a day off and played through the first 30 minutes or so of many of the hacks discussed here, as well as Redesign, which I didn't see here, and I have some comments.

I think it would've been best to play some hacks all the way through instead of the start of a bunch of them. There's some hacks that for me started off very slow and boring but picked up later on (Kind of like MP2 Echoes). Everyone has different oppinions, but just because you didn't like the appetizer does not nessecarily mean the main course is bad. Then again, you do bring up some good points.

1. These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty... If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process.

This I agree with, but not everyone will. Most of the people who are dedicated to the game enough to make hacks of it have been playing for a very long time and most of what you find needlessly difficult is what they might need to feel like the game is still challenging. Because they're good at dealing with enemies or performing difficult jumps, things that force normal players to loadstate over and over again will only take them a couple of tries. At any rate, it seems like quite a few hacks we have to look forward to are closer to regular SM level than we've been having.

2. There's way too much detail in all of these hacks...
I kind of agree here. Sometimes Super Metroid only had tiles used in one place, and that made it a very special place in the game. Many hacks lack these special one of a kind areas, which were my favorite places in SM.

5.
Your issue with this may be amplified by the fact that you played through the begining of a bunch of hacks and probably saw the same "Ceres was under attack!" message and stuff every single time.

6.
Not quite understanding this, but I think you are refering to something like "I just got powerbombs, I should go back to X area and open that powerbomb door I saw there." And then go there and find a whole new area you can explore opened up to you, as opposed to "Ha ha, you just got powerbombs and went back to go through this door, but found out you need speedbooster which is back somewhere in the other area to do anything!". If that's what you're refering to, I really understand it, as I hated that one powerbomb door in Cliffhanger around Kraid, which I headed to right after powerbombs only to find it was underwater and I couldn't go anywhere. It also had enemies that practically killed Samus without Varia/Gravity in one hit and I didn't even have anything that could hurt them at that point. It wasn't the only place that powerbombs opened up the entrance to, the problem was, it was the only one I could think of.

I would recommend playing the Beta version of Volta. It really feels like the closest thing to the original to me.

Edit: tried shortening my WoT a little...

[quote="Zeku"]
Recently I took a day off and played through the first 30 minutes or so of many of the hacks discussed here, as well as Redesign, which I didn't see here, and I have some comments.
[/quote]

I think it would've been best to play some hacks all the way through instead of the start of a bunch of them. There's some hacks that for me started off very slow and boring but picked up later on (Kind of like MP2 Echoes). Everyone has different oppinions, but just because you didn't like the appetizer does not nessecarily mean the main course is bad. Then again, you do bring up some good points.

1.  These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty...  If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process.

This I agree with, but not everyone will. Most of the people who are dedicated to the game enough to make hacks of it have been playing for a very long time and most of what you find needlessly difficult is what they might need to feel like the game is still challenging. Because they're good at dealing with enemies or performing difficult jumps, things that force normal players to loadstate over and over again will only take them a couple of tries.  At any rate, it seems like quite a few hacks we have to look forward to are closer to regular SM level than we've been having.

2.  There's way too much detail in all of these hacks...
I kind of agree here. Sometimes Super Metroid only had tiles used in one place, and that made it a very special place in the game. Many hacks lack these special one of a kind areas, which were my favorite places in SM.

5.
Your issue with this may be amplified by the fact that you played through the begining of a bunch of hacks and probably saw the same "Ceres was under attack!" message and stuff every single time.

6.
Not quite understanding this, but I think you are refering to something like "I just got powerbombs, I should go back to X area and open that powerbomb door I saw there." And then go there and find a whole new area you can explore opened up to you, as opposed to "Ha ha, you just got powerbombs and went back to go through this door, but found out you need speedbooster which is back somewhere in the other area to do anything!". If that's what you're refering to, I really understand it, as I hated that one powerbomb door in Cliffhanger around Kraid, which I headed to right after powerbombs only to find it was underwater and I couldn't go anywhere. It also had enemies that practically killed Samus without Varia/Gravity in one hit and I didn't even have anything that could hurt them at that point. It wasn't the only place that powerbombs opened up the entrance to, the problem was, it was the only one I could think of.

I would recommend playing the Beta version of Volta. It really feels like the closest thing to the original to me.

Edit: tried shortening my WoT a little...

Zeku

2008-09-29 08:46:07 pm

Hey guys, my only intent with this criticism is to highlight what (I believe) the majority of your audience is thinking when they try these things. There's no attack here, only a desire for bigger and better things. I'm familiar enough with FPS editing to know the amount of work that goes into completing just a single area.

It's not that I believe that making beginners happy is the goal of these hacks, but rather, that it's just more satisfying if every type of person can enjoy the experience.

devonodev

2008-09-29 09:30:20 pm

Devonodev: Other D

I have to agree with some of the things that Zeku said. But some of it I don't agree with.
It's all a matter of opinion. Some people like new tile sets, some people never get sick of the old tile sets.
Some people like linear hacks, some people don't.

Quote from Bioniclegenius:

As to the difficulty thing, I agree. It gets pretty boring when you have to redo one thing over and over and over again, just to get it right. It ought to be difficult enough that it challenges you, but shouldn't take more than, say, two tries to get it right.

there are 3 types of hacks: You always know what to do and you never die
You spend a long time trying to figure out what to do or where to go
You spend a long time trying to get past an obstacle, or do a trick that is too hard

DSDrew7

2008-09-29 09:40:42 pm

Break the chains!

Quote from Zeku:

It's not that I believe that making beginners happy is the goal of these hacks, but rather, that it's just more satisfying if every type of person can enjoy the experience.

Its more difficult than what it looks. Not everyone can enjoy one hack/fan game. I do agree that it needs to be more towards the original, the only concern is trying to get that exact same feel that it originally did. Cliffhanger/Impossible/Redesign is more of pushing you to limitations that you may not know you had. I feel that until a group of people (even though others may disagree) sit down and take the time and look at everything SM had, and combine ideas. But as others claimed, its more of a challenge on beginners. They believe that they can change things and it works but ends up not working because there are those that truly annihilated the original and know every single thing.

petrie911

2008-09-29 11:05:21 pm

3 is a problem I've had with nearly all hacks. "Find the shotblock" is a really horrible thing to do to the player, as it's incredibly tedious. Plus, some hackers decide that regular shotblocks aren't enough and use SM blocks, which don't show up with PBs. Oh, and to top it all off, edited shotblocks often don't show up on X-ray (If the hack even gives it to you). I think Redesign was pretty good about this, but Cliffhanger and Golden Dawn could have stood to do it less, and Dependence had a rather nasty example in Tourian that didn't show up on Xray. Invisible passages should also have some hint that they are there, as they also have a tendency to not show up on Xray in hacks, and they're really just as bad as shotblocks.

Crys

Edit history:

Crys: 2008-09-30 07:40:57 am

2008-09-30 07:34:47 am

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

I will not read all post, This comment is for the first post!

SM-R is a great hack. But it have many flaws IMO.

But all other hacks here on this forum... Are worse.. in a lot of ways.
I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying it's not metroid.

How ever... You have to see what is in the works too.

I have been working on my hack for over 3 years. It took 3 years for me to understand SMILE and SM so much; To the point that I could hack it.

I belive my hack will do well when it gets out. Because I have been trying so hard to make some thing new. I design my own puzzles on the spot. I do rooms on the spot with out planing. Yet it works out well.

But it's not just me. Look at acheron he mastered hacking a lot faster then me. And he is also working on his own game, His own areas, and his own dream.

I have been wanting to make a game like super metroid since I was a kid; And now I can.

It's not easy.. And it's time consuming.
You have good points. I give you that.

But you have to look at every thing; Not just parts!

Quote:

I think it would've been best to play some hacks all the way through instead of the start of a bunch of them. There's some hacks that for me started off very slow and boring but picked up later on (Kind of like MP2 Echoes). Everyone has different oppinions, but just because you didn't like the appetizer does not nessecarily mean the main course is bad. Then again, you do bring up some good points.

You fail to see the point. If you keep dieing becuse it's to hard at the start. Then why would you want to play it? :/

I will not read all post, This comment is for the first post!

SM-R is a great hack. But it have many flaws IMO.

But all other hacks here on this forum... Are worse.. in a lot of ways.
I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying it's not metroid.

How ever... You have to see what is in the works too.

I have been working on my hack for over 3 years. It took 3 years for me to understand SMILE and SM so much; To the point that I could hack it.

I belive my hack will do well when it gets out. Because I have been trying so hard to make some thing new. I design my own puzzles on the spot. I do rooms on the spot with out planing. Yet it works out well.

But it's not just me. Look at acheron he mastered hacking a lot faster then me. And he is also working on his own game, His own areas, and his own dream.

I have been wanting to make a game like super metroid since I was a kid; And now I can.

It's not easy.. And it's time consuming.
You have good points. I give you that.

But you have to look at every thing; Not just parts!

[quote]
I think it would've been best to play some hacks all the way through instead of the start of a bunch of them. There's some hacks that for me started off very slow and boring but picked up later on (Kind of like MP2 Echoes). Everyone has different oppinions, but just because you didn't like the appetizer does not nessecarily mean the main course is bad. Then again, you do bring up some good points.[/quote]
You fail to see the point. If you keep dieing becuse it's to hard at the start. Then why would you want to play it? :/

Opium

2008-09-30 08:04:56 am

Quote from Crys:

I will not read all post, This comment is for the first post!

SM-R is a great hack. But it have many flaws IMO.

Are you referring to flaws in the quality of the game, or things that you simply don't like? If you're talking about your own preferences, then its hardly fair to call them flaws.

Quote:

But all other hacks here on this forum... Are worse.. in a lot of ways.
I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying it's not metroid.

hmm lets see...you play as samus, there's kraid & ridley & MB, exploring a large map to find items/upgrades, I think it sounds like metroid to me.

Quote:

I belive my hack will do well when it gets out. Because I have been trying so hard to make some thing new. I design my own puzzles on the spot. I do rooms on the spot with out planing. Yet it works out well.

Your aspirations are not unique, I hope your hack is unique though. If it is outside my personal likes/dislikes I won't call it 'flawed'

Cardweaver

Edit history:

Cardweaver: 2008-09-30 10:35:16 am

2008-09-30 10:11:03 am

Another point that has yet to be considered is the fact that hacking is an artform, and like any other art, it brings joy to its creator. I mostly hack because I like to. The minute I stop wanting to hack and hack anyway because its for other people is the minute the quality suffers dramatically. I love the feeling of trying out a new room, or reading the reactions of everyone when I show spoilers. When I first release a hack, I usually plan to be online all the next day just to provide support, answer questions, and revel in the joy caused by something I made. An in depth hack is much like your child; you're quick to praise it, and have a hard time realizing its flaws.

I would be more forgiving in my opinion about this topic if you were an experienced SM hacker yourself, but considering that you aren't, you cannot possibly understand the impossibility that is creating a hack that appeals to everyone. Basically, I make my hacks for me, and if other people enjoy them, then that's just gravy.

Another point that has yet to be considered is the fact that hacking is an artform, and like any other art, it brings joy to its creator. I mostly hack because I like to. The minute I stop wanting to hack and hack anyway because its for other people is the minute the quality suffers dramatically. I love the feeling of trying out a new room, or reading the reactions of everyone when I show spoilers. When I first release a hack, I usually plan to be online all the next day just to provide support, answer questions, and revel in the joy caused by something I made. An in depth hack is much like your child; you're quick to praise it, and have a hard time realizing its flaws.

I would be more forgiving in my opinion about this topic if you were an experienced SM hacker yourself, but considering that you aren't, you cannot possibly understand the impossibility that is creating a hack that appeals to everyone. Basically, I make my hacks for me, and if other people enjoy them, then that's just [i]gravy[/i].

Zhs2

2008-09-30 10:26:17 am

Yo.

As discussed in a topic that started on a similar note, making a thread to bash something is bad form. The author get a quote from me:

Quote from Zhs2:

It's just another person complaining about how much they don't like this game or that game, and nobody wants to hear that. If you didn't like the game, don't play it again. If you say, "Hey, this or that's not fair," somebody deserves to tell you, "Hey, life's not fair, buddy." Complaining doesn't change anything, so why do it?

J-SNAKE

(user is banned)

J-SNAKE

Edit history:

J-SNAKE: 2008-09-30 11:14:20 am

2008-09-30 11:01:47 am

thats me

The point is, you advertise the wrong people here, the hackers. They need more motivation and that cannot be their aim to make best METROID GAME ever. They are happy and it is hard enough for them to create some variation, but you can not expect much more.
Just look for example, some may try to create a good exploration experience, but a simple "putting marks on the map to remember places of interest" -Feature seems to be to difficult to implement.

If you want to see something innovative also covering more aspects in gameplay you have to wait for SM2 and probably for MSR388. Personally I can only speak for my game (SM2), of course.

Acheron

2008-09-30 11:53:53 am

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Before the flames start, J-SNAKE is right, bittersweet truth though it is. Hacking is inherently always going to be limited by the flaws of the engine, unless you rewrite it, which is probably more work than making a new one from scratch. Yes I'm biting my tongue too, but it's still a fact.

On the other hand, it's not our fault if someone plays a hack and expects it to be an entirely new Metroid game. And at least we actually release the stuff we make to the public. So take some consolation in that; even if we can't make a new Metroid game, obviously we're happy with hacking the one we have, and anyone who doesn't like that should just not play hacks.

Crys

2008-09-30 02:17:06 pm

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

Quote from Opium:

Quote from Crys:

I will not read all post, This comment is for the first post!

SM-R is a great hack. But it have many flaws IMO.

Are you referring to flaws in the quality of the game, or things that you simply don't like? If you're talking about your own preferences, then its hardly fair to call them flaws.

IMO stands for In My Opinion. =)

Quote from Opium:

Quote:

But all other hacks here on this forum... Are worse.. in a lot of ways.
I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying it's not metroid.

hmm lets see...you play as samus, there's kraid & ridley & MB, exploring a large map to find items/upgrades, I think it sounds like metroid to me.

When I say metroid. I'm not talking about samus or the metroids. I am referring how the game is built up.
Most hacks here mainly relies on skills and such. And that is what I meant. Sorry if I confuse you.

SleepingSeaweed

2008-10-01 03:38:14 pm

Quote:

These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty. (That is not the same thing as saying "It's too hard.") I'm aware that savestates are available, but I really curious why you think this really makes any difference? If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process. This is not any more fun, nor is it any better gameplay than just blowing through a typically easy exploration session.

I won't hijack this thread with any speeches about how I think a hack should be, but this one is really my major issue with most new hacks. I do enjoy challenge runs in vanilla SM that can be sort of challenging aside from normal speedruns, like low% and NBMB. I do not enjoy having to constantly load save states to get through a game. This doesn't apply to SM Impossible - difficulty is the main theme of the hack, so if you play it, you ask for it.

Quote from petrie911:

3 is a problem I've had with nearly all hacks. "Find the shotblock" is a really horrible thing to do to the player, as it's incredibly tedious. Plus, some hackers decide that regular shotblocks aren't enough and use SM blocks, which don't show up with PBs. Oh, and to top it all off, edited shotblocks often don't show up on X-ray (If the hack even gives it to you).

And please spare us from random breakable grapple blocks that looks like normal terrain! Fortunately I haven't seen a lot of these and I hope I won't in the future either. Anyway, if we're talking about the main path there needs to be *some* kind of hint to these, even if it's nothing more than a dead end that suggests you start checking walls, floors and ceilings. The joy in exploration does not lie in trying to find the main path...

However, I think Cardweaver brought up a very important point - the artistic freedom. I can forgive any occurance in a hack if it's an effect of that cause, because the point of a game will entirely disappear if the game isn't made according to the intentions of its creator.

Zeku, I suggest you get familiar with SMILE and try to make your own hack - you seem to have a good perception of the player-to-game interaction, and it could become interesting if you keep those things in mind. Naturally, you shouldn't bother with it unless you have some idea of what you want it to be about, and I don't think I need to mention how much work it takes to actually make something good.

Last words, I think every SM hacker here should try to appreciate criticism. In the end it's just opinions and nothing personal, and it gives an idea of how the hack is percieved by others. One shouldn't give in to the opinions of others, but it's important to understand them. I might have to swallow these words when I eventually come up with something of my own, but that's something I can live with.

[quote]These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty.  (That is not the same thing as saying "It's too hard.")  I'm aware that savestates are available, but I really curious why you think this really makes any difference?  If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process.  This is not any more fun, nor is it any better gameplay than just blowing through a typically easy exploration session.[/quote]

I won't hijack this thread with any speeches about how I think a hack should be, but this one is really my major issue with most new hacks. I do enjoy challenge runs in vanilla SM that can be sort of challenging aside from normal speedruns, like low% and NBMB. I do not enjoy having to constantly load save states to get through a game. This doesn't apply to SM Impossible - difficulty is the main theme of the hack, so if you play it, you ask for it.

[quote="petrie911"]
3 is a problem I've had with nearly all hacks.  "Find the shotblock" is a really horrible thing to do to the player, as it's incredibly tedious.  Plus, some hackers decide that regular shotblocks aren't enough and use SM blocks, which don't show up with PBs.  Oh, and to top it all off, edited shotblocks often don't show up on X-ray (If the hack even gives it to you). [/quote]

And please spare us from random breakable grapple blocks that looks like normal terrain! Fortunately I haven't seen a lot of these and I hope I won't in the future either. Anyway, if we're talking about the main path there needs to be *some* kind of hint to these, even if it's nothing more than a dead end that suggests you start checking walls, floors and ceilings. The joy in exploration does not lie in trying to find the main path...

However, I think Cardweaver brought up a very important point - the artistic freedom. I can forgive any occurance in a hack if it's an effect of that cause, because the point of a game will entirely disappear if the game isn't made according to the intentions of its creator.

Zeku, I suggest you get familiar with SMILE and try to make your own hack - you seem to have a good perception of the player-to-game interaction, and it could become interesting if you keep those things in mind. Naturally, you shouldn't bother with it unless you have some idea of what you want it to be about, and I don't think I need to mention how much work it takes to actually make something good.

Last words, I think every SM hacker here should try to appreciate criticism. In the end it's just opinions and nothing personal, and it gives an idea of how the hack is percieved by others. One shouldn't give in to the opinions of others, but it's important to understand them. I might have to swallow these words when I eventually come up with something of my own, but that's something I can live with.

Von Richter

2008-10-01 04:57:39 pm

I think the first post on this thread is well intentioned but perhaps missing the point. I'll point out some observations of my own:

*It looks like Zebes because it's a hack of Super Metroid. That's not the point, the gameplay is. Even with tile edits and so on, it's still going to be derived from SM. A hack is a hack.

*The "details" become ornate and crazy because it's using existing SM assets. Without making a new game from scratch, there isn't much else you can do. When people create bizarre alien constructions using the existing tiles, it has an appeal of it's own if you understand how much work goes into it.

*It's all about cleverly re-arranging the existing game materials to come up with something new. There is an artistry to this.

*Some hacks are hard, some aren't. Some seem harder than they really are due to vague level design. The justification for the hard hacks is that, by now, anyone who's played SM to death wants a new challenge. It's unfair to go into a rom hack expecting it to be a new official Metroid game.

I think the first post on this thread is well intentioned but perhaps missing the point. I'll point out some observations of my own:

*It looks like Zebes because it's a hack of Super Metroid. That's not the point, the gameplay is. Even with tile edits and so on, it's still going to be derived from SM. A hack is a hack.

*The "details" become ornate and crazy because it's using existing SM assets. Without making a new game from scratch, there isn't much else you can do. When people create bizarre alien constructions using the existing tiles, it has an appeal of it's own if you understand how much work goes into it.

*It's all about cleverly re-arranging the existing game materials to come up with something new. There is an artistry to this.

*Some hacks are hard, some aren't. Some seem harder than they really are due to vague level design. The justification for the hard hacks is that, by now, anyone who's played SM to death wants a new challenge. It's unfair to go into a rom hack expecting it to be a new official Metroid game.

DonnyDonovan

2008-10-02 12:44:42 am

Not only that, but it seems like the TC is taking an awfully "one size fits all" approach to SM hack analysis. There exists an ever increasing variety of hacks and, in addition to varying in quality, they set out to do different things. Some people want to perform feats of timing, dexterity and difficulty even if it means loading states and dying repeately. Some people see a new hack where, for example, IBJ or HBJ is required and immediately download it. Some immediately move on. Some prefer exploration to hard boss fights. Some want a combo platter. The recent trend of hack creators offering an easy and hard version of the same game (Cliffhanger, Precision, Golden Dawn) is an excellent one because more casual players can still experience the hack while hardcore SM players can also derive enjoyment.

I feel we are entering a fantastic era of Super Metroid hacking because as more people create hacks, and more people push the limits of what is possible, the variety and quality of options available keeps going up and up. You don't have to like all of them, but there are hacks out there that should please almost any fan of Super Metroid, as they add variety and replayability to what is already, IMO, one of the three or four best videogames of all time.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the hackmakers and the time and effort they employ. They create incredible games not for money but because they love to make something awesome, and they've given me hours and hours of enjoyment. I raise a glass to all of you, whether I liked your particular hack or not.

Not only that, but it seems like the TC is taking an awfully "one size fits all" approach to SM hack analysis.  There exists an ever increasing variety of hacks and, in addition to varying in quality, they set out to do different things.  Some people want to perform feats of timing, dexterity and difficulty even if it means loading states and dying repeately.  Some people see a new hack where, for example, IBJ or HBJ is required and immediately download it.  Some immediately move on.  Some prefer exploration to hard boss fights.  Some want a combo platter.  The recent trend of hack creators offering an easy and hard version of the same game (Cliffhanger, Precision, Golden Dawn) is an excellent one because more casual players can still experience the hack while hardcore SM players can also derive enjoyment.

I feel we are entering a fantastic era of Super Metroid hacking because as more people create hacks, and more people push the limits of what is possible, the variety and quality of options available keeps going up and up.  You don't have to like all of them, but there are hacks out there that should please almost any fan of Super Metroid, as they add variety and replayability to what is already, IMO, one of the three or four best videogames of all time.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the hackmakers and the time and effort they employ.  They create incredible games not for money but because they love to make something awesome, and they've given me hours and hours of enjoyment.  I raise a glass to all of you, whether I liked your particular hack or not.

Opium

2008-10-02 01:13:41 am

Quote from DonnyDonovan:

The recent trend of hack creators offering an easy and hard version of the same game (Cliffhanger, Precision, Golden Dawn) is an excellent one because more casual players can still experience the hack while hardcore SM players can also derive enjoyment.

There's an easy ver. of golden Dawn ?