PAL version any% and 100% speed runs

2011-03-25 08:09:06 am

I understand now, thanks! And let's hope your run is good for them. hehehe...

2011-03-25 08:20:26 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Well, as far as the run is concerned, the only problem I can see them running into is one of them claiming that cheating took place, due to there being tricks that are all but impossible to perform normally. However, anybody that has been in touch with recent (i.e. the last 12-18 months) developments will realise how much practice and research has taken place. My gut feeling is that there shouldn't be a problem at all, but fingers crossed, just in case.

Behemoth

2011-03-25 09:25:33 am

I've thought of this potential problem many times. irrc SnUfFit86 wants/wanted to verify the run. He's a very skilled player who can do anything I can do in that run also. At the very least I hope all verifiers are open minded people who also like you say have kept in touch with developments for the past 18 months. If not, well I still have faith in the run being accepted nonethless.

Reeve

2011-03-25 09:49:10 pm

I remember that when Hotarubi submited his run and people was thinking he cheated, Nate (iirc) asked Kejardon's help. Maybe if the same happens to your run they ask some experienced player like Kejardon, Cpadolf, Hero Of The Day, Saturn, NameSpoofer... etc to help with the validation of the run. Anyway, i just hope it doesn't take too long, like happened to Hotarubi's any% run, for the run to be accepted. In the end, no matter how long it takes to be analized, i'm sure the run will be accepted. They'll probably make some research on this forum and i think Nate is already aware that this run was comming.

Behemoth

2011-03-26 04:46:06 am

The only thing I'm worried about is my mess up in the 2nd room of Tourian looks so unbelievably ridiculous that it actually looks kind of forced. In the very worst case scenario if they think I cheated they might think "he made mistakes to look human" or some shit like that lol. That was a a genuine shocking mistake I made due to finger slipping to the left on the d pad. I was lucky to get enough supers back to finish Tourian off almost properly at least. I really thought that was a reset at the time but I carried on to see what the time would be.

F-Bomb

2011-03-26 02:14:39 pm

The Bomb that says it all .!..

I watched this run again from start to finish yesterday and man is it sweet. If you're worried about the last segment looking as if you cheated, then all the verifiers will have to do is watch the other 5 segments and they will see that your run is consistently great throughout, but not without mistakes (which is perfectly fine, and probably bodes well in your favour).

I also noticed other very cool things which I had missed on earlier viewings, such as:
The amount of speed and mockball through out the entire run.
The water balls in the Wrecked Ship were sweet.
The Jump and Mockball across the missile lake on return from WS.
in the Lower Norfair Pillar room you bust through the last 2 pillars with speed echoes not screw attack Dancing

.
The whole of Lower Norfair in General is just a pleasure to watch, and is as close to perfect as could be.
Wrap around glitch when leaving Crocomire area.
Speedball to blue brinstar power bombs.
Wrap around glitch in Blue Brinstar followed by speedball.

Another thing in your favour is that, while your tricks and skills are mad and fucking awesome, I feel as someone that plays this game a lot, that with enough practice I could maybe pull them off. Whereas the shit in a Saturn TAS for instance is well beyond the realm of my skills (which is really the purpose of a TAS innit).

Even if the verifiers don't accept it (which is doubtful) you've already wowed plenty of people here.

I watched this run again from start to finish yesterday and man is it sweet. If you're worried about the last segment looking as if you cheated, then all the verifiers will have to do is watch the other 5 segments and they will see that your run is consistently great throughout, but not without mistakes (which is perfectly fine, and probably bodes well in your favour).

I also noticed other very cool things which I had missed on earlier viewings, such as:
The amount of speed and mockball through out the entire run.
The water balls in the Wrecked Ship were sweet.
The Jump and Mockball across the missile lake on return from WS.
in the Lower Norfair Pillar room you bust through the last 2 pillars with speed echoes not screw attack:ohyeah_orig:.
The whole of Lower Norfair in General is just a pleasure to watch, and is as close to perfect as could be. 
Wrap around glitch when leaving Crocomire area.
Speedball to blue brinstar power bombs.
Wrap around glitch in Blue Brinstar followed by speedball.

Another thing in your favour is that, while your tricks and skills are mad and fucking awesome, I feel as someone that plays this game a lot, that with enough practice I could maybe pull them off. Whereas the shit in a Saturn TAS for instance is well beyond the realm of my skills (which is really the purpose of a TAS innit).

Even if the verifiers don't accept it (which is doubtful) you've already wowed plenty of people here.

072

2011-03-26 05:11:20 pm

coral to complement blue

Just finished watching.

Quote from F-Bomb:

Man this run is fuckin awesome.

Seriously, wow. Those speedball jumps. O_O

Without a doubt the best SM run I've ever seen. The top of the WS was also neat. How long ago did you come up with that strategy?

Behemoth

2011-03-26 05:22:58 pm

Awesome to see you here 072 !!!

Really glad you liked the run. That strategy in the wrecked ship attic room is a room op that forensic found/devised around mid/late last year I think. It can be tricky but is consistent when you have a visual for the take off jump. It saves between 2 - 3 seconds.

Reeve

2011-03-27 09:15:29 am

Well, it seems your run has already enough verifiers as it's not listed in the "Runs Needing Verification" topic. Now we just need to wait for the verifiers to receive you run to start the verification.

Behemoth

2011-03-28 11:21:05 am

Yep. That was very quick and just proves how popular this game is.

Anyway I didn't stick to my guns and I've recently started doing 1 very casual SS 100% run per day. So far, I'm a bit rubbish. Haven't hit 0:52 yet in 3 runs. Just hit a 0:53 though. Again it's just casual, continuing with very bad mistakes. I seem to get better in the later part of the run. Which to me suggests it's because those are fresher in my hands for execution and avoidance of mistakes. Having said that I did a Torizo skip yesterday. Anyway I'm just building myself up very gradually for future attempts for a stab at 0:50. I really don't know how hard it will be. A lot of luck might be needed on bosses actually and not just consistency throughout the run. I also don't think a 0:51 will cut it knowing that 0:50 is very much feasible. Not to mention 3 minutes slower than my segmented run won't cut it anyway in my opinion.

OptimoPeach

Edit history:

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 01:26:51 am

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 01:23:30 am

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 01:23:01 am

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 01:09:51 am

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 01:08:03 am

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 01:06:13 am

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 01:05:29 am

2011-04-02 12:57:35 am

asdf?

Quote from Quietus:

Well, as far as the run is concerned, the only problem I can see them running into is one of them claiming that cheating took place, due to there being tricks that are all but impossible to perform normally. However, anybody that has been in touch with recent (i.e. the last 12-18 months) developments will realise how much practice and research has taken place. My gut feeling is that there shouldn't be a problem at all, but fingers crossed, just in case.

I think a lot of people are just ignorant to how high the ceiling is in video games in general. Years and years of watching pro Counter-Strike, Starcraft: Brood War, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, etc has really opened my eyes to what is possible -- not just the the crazy hand-eye coordination and reflexes comparable to that of fighter pilots that can translate to an in-game performance that seems almost inhuman, but also the intricate planning that requires both unfathomable dedication and some true strategic genius. I would even go so far as to say, with no offense intended towards Behemoth or anyone else, that the levels of skill I've personally seen displayed in live matches of such games trump anything that will ever be produced by the speed running community. After all, when it comes down to it, it is a numbers game, and speed running is undeniably way more obscure than competitive Starcraft and the like

ANYWAY, the fine folks at SDA probably know all this better than just about anyone, so I'm not sure what I'm rambling about lol. No doubt they know what a fake run looks like, and I'm confident Behemoth has nothing to worry about, especially with the support of an entire forum of nerds who have spent like a bajillion hours dissecting the game

[quote="Quietus"]Well, as far as the run is concerned, the only problem I can see them running into is one of them claiming that cheating took place, due to there being tricks that are all but impossible to perform normally.  However, anybody that has been in touch with recent (i.e. the last 12-18 months) developments will realise how much practice and research has taken place.  My gut feeling is that there shouldn't be a problem at all, but fingers crossed, just in case.[/quote]
I think a lot of people are just ignorant to how high the ceiling is in video games in general. Years and years of watching pro Counter-Strike, Starcraft: Brood War, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, etc has really opened my eyes to what is possible -- not just the [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/7808860/Computer-gamers-have-reactions-of-pilots-but-bodies-of-chain-smokers.html]the crazy hand-eye coordination and reflexes comparable to that of fighter pilots[/url] that can translate to an in-game performance that seems almost inhuman, but also the intricate planning that requires both unfathomable dedication and some true strategic genius. I would even go so far as to say, with no offense intended towards Behemoth or anyone else, that the levels of skill I've personally seen displayed in live matches of such games trump anything that will ever be produced by the speed running community. After all, when it comes down to it, it is a numbers game, and speed running is undeniably way more obscure than competitive Starcraft and the like

ANYWAY, the fine folks at SDA probably know all this better than just about anyone, so I'm not sure what I'm rambling about lol. No doubt they know what a fake run looks like, and I'm confident Behemoth has nothing to worry about, especially with the support of an entire forum of nerds who have spent like a bajillion hours dissecting the game

Behemoth

Edit history:

Behemoth: 2011-04-02 08:27:34 am

Behemoth: 2011-04-02 08:24:53 am

Behemoth: 2011-04-02 08:08:47 am

Behemoth: 2011-04-02 08:08:39 am

Behemoth: 2011-04-02 08:07:58 am

Behemoth: 2011-04-02 08:07:01 am

Behemoth: 2011-04-02 08:04:35 am

2011-04-02 08:00:37 am

I often wonder how much better the general performance of SM speed running would be if there were hundreds, if not thousands more people doing it on a regular basis. In a competitive environment. I'd say no doubt that very hardcore times would have already been achieved some years ago by now.

I myself have seen online matches of my personal favourite fighting game Ultimate mortal kombat and seen the top players playing like a god. I took it to near that level myself on the DS but I stopped playing because all the pro players seem to have left. I think the performance difference between say a fighting game and speed running Super Metroid is that with the former, you reacting on spare of the moment decisions all the time, and are relying on your practice you've had of the moves to see these decisions through. So as something that is built entirely on reflexes, those aspects of your gaming will be at an all time high.

SM on the other hand is not a competitive game. You are hardly never relying on pure reflexes, that aspect is far more settled, the game is just memorization and hand eye coordination. So your goal is perfection of movements that you strive for and not winning decisions. So what I'm trying to say is, is that different aspects of gaming are at their peaks with the two types of games I've described. So they are not readily comparable directly. But back to an earlier point I made, due to smaller numbers, there might be more of a shock value in a good speed run when there really shouldn't be, because the level of skill, although different, are at similar peaks. Speed running may even have a lot more to offer that what we know of today. Speed running is still a sub culture, where as competitive gaming is far more out there in the mainstream. Because with more numbers, competition gets more fierce, so more godlike game playing becomes the norm

I often wonder how much better the general performance of SM speed running would be if there were hundreds, if not thousands more people doing it on a regular basis. In a competitive environment. I'd say no doubt that very hardcore times would have already been achieved some years ago by now.

I myself have seen online matches of my personal favourite fighting game Ultimate mortal kombat and seen the top players playing like a god. I took it to near that level myself on the DS but I stopped playing because all the pro players seem to have left. I think the performance difference between say a fighting game and speed running Super Metroid is that with the former, you reacting on spare of the moment decisions all the time, and are relying on your practice you've had of the moves to see these decisions through. So as something that is built entirely on reflexes, those aspects of your gaming will be at an all time high.

SM on the other hand is not a competitive game. You are hardly never relying on pure reflexes, that aspect is far more settled, the game is just memorization and hand eye coordination. So your goal is perfection of movements that you strive for and not winning decisions. So what I'm trying to say is, is that different aspects of gaming are at their peaks with the two types of games I've described. So they are not readily comparable directly. But back to an earlier point I made, due to smaller numbers, there might be more of a shock value in a good speed run when there really shouldn't be, because the level of skill, although different, are at similar peaks. Speed running may even have a lot more to offer that what we know of today. Speed running is still a sub culture, where as competitive gaming is far more out there in the mainstream. Because with more numbers, competition gets more fierce, so more godlike game playing becomes the norm

OptimoPeach

Edit history:

OptimoPeach: 2011-04-02 03:10:45 pm

2011-04-02 03:09:59 pm

asdf?

Yeah I'll agree that the variable of a human competitor introduces a lot of intangibles absent from speed running, so it is a kinda awkward comparison.

And I think you're spot on about the whole shock value thing. Something like Hotarubi coming along when he did and absolutely shattering records rarely happens in competitive multiplayer, simply because with more people playing (and watching) the multiplayer games, the increases in skill are typically steady, incremental gains. It would be like seeing Boxer circa 2001 in Starcraft and then hopping in a time machine to skip nearly a decade of development and go watch Flash vs Jaedong in 2010. I really wish I could find some good quality first-person VODs of old Starcraft to illustrate how eerily similar the scenarios are in this regard

But dude, you should check out SSF4, BlazBlue, MvC3, etc if you're into fighting games! You would no doubt be a beast with some practice

Behemoth

2011-04-07 01:39:10 pm

Well I had a change of mind, I'm gonna do any% SS. I'm just bored of 100% because I've been doing it for too long now and for some reason I'm just not "on it" so to speak. Making mistakes all over the place. I want to enjoy running this game not feel bogged down which is what it was doing. But it won't take too much to get back into shape on it some time later this year.

Speaking of getting back in shape I've been doing some any% practice/casual speed runs. Just now I did a run that started off with the Torizo skip but the rest of the run was mostly mediocre and I managed to get 0:33, wtf!. Beat my record yeaaa haaaa !. It must have been 1 second from turning to 0:34 lol honestly. I took all the necessary optimizations that we went through ages ago. Along with shit load more experience and ultra beefed up execution from doing my segmented 100%. I've just been blitzing it today on this any%. I really was expecting a 0:35 coz the run didn't feel altogether there. It was casual, but I admit I did some parts very cleanly, especially Lower Norfair. Phantoon was a 2 rounder with slowest patten and a fast pattern, so that was average. Draygon was terrible (keeps giving me bad patterns lately) and guess what ? I did the Hotarubi mistake in the attic room of wrecked ship, hah!. I crashed my shinespark into the electric pillar thingy making the rest of the room waaaaay too slow. Anyway I'm really pleased I managed to beat my record with a much less that satisfactory run and only a small amount of time recapping and practicing bits a pieces. I reckon I might start recording soon and aim for that 0:32.

Well I had a change of mind, I'm gonna do any% SS. I'm just bored of 100% because I've been doing it for too long now and for some reason I'm just not "on it" so to speak. Making mistakes all over the place. I want to enjoy running this game not feel bogged down which is what it was doing. But it won't take too much to get back into shape on it some time later this year.

Speaking of getting back in shape I've been doing some any% practice/casual speed runs. Just now I did a run that started off with the Torizo skip but the rest of the run was mostly mediocre and I managed to get 0:33, wtf!. Beat my record yeaaa haaaa !. It must have been 1 second from turning to 0:34 lol honestly. I took all the necessary optimizations that we went through ages ago. Along with shit load more experience and ultra beefed up execution from doing my segmented 100%. I've just been blitzing it today on this any%. I really was expecting a 0:35 coz the run didn't feel altogether there. It was casual, but I admit I did some parts very cleanly, especially Lower Norfair. Phantoon was a 2 rounder with slowest patten and a fast pattern, so that was average. Draygon was terrible (keeps giving me bad patterns lately) and guess what ? I did the Hotarubi mistake in the attic room of wrecked ship, hah!. I crashed my shinespark into the electric pillar thingy making the rest of the room waaaaay too slow. Anyway I'm really pleased I managed to beat my record with a much less that satisfactory run and only a small amount of time recapping and practicing bits a pieces. I reckon I might start recording soon and aim for that 0:32.

Quietus

2011-04-07 02:15:26 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I think that you've been so involved in the 100% run that it seems like any% is a secondary goal. I think you should dedicate the same process to this as you did with your recent run. Create a new TAS, see what the optimum time will be with all of the new manoeuvres, and then really try to crank it down. Surely if you can casually get a 33, then the goal to aim for is 31. If it ends up too far out of reach, then so be it, but start with a hard goal. Good luck, either way.

* Quietus prepares to be Behemoth's conscience once again, and talk about his 'destiny'. Cool

Behemoth

Edit history:

Behemoth: 2011-04-07 02:33:01 pm

2011-04-07 02:28:32 pm

Oh I certainly will take it seriously as it's the current run. I enjoy any% just as much if not a little more than 100%. The any% I just did was undoubtedly a very high 0:33. Just like all my records are very high into the minute I think. I'm always shocked when I achieve them expecting a much lower time. I would need to find over 2 minutes in the run to get 0:31, Yeah that ain't happening. I can tell 0:32 is going to be very hardcore and I need very high consistency with or without a Torizo skip. 0:31 is only really feasible segmented. My last TAS I did was 30:51 and honestly there's not that much more to the run as far as optimizations go. I even incorperated some from the 100%. Also I can't make a TAS anyway because I'm still having problems with snes9x. Only thing I can do is use a keyboard which certainly aint happening lol. Not for a realtime run anyway.

I'm hearing the voices already... the've started... agghhh somebody help

F-Bomb

2011-04-07 07:15:52 pm

The Bomb that says it all .!..

I feel your pain Behemoth,
I've been doing 100% SS runs for about 10 - 12 months now and it's really wearing me down (but I have finally consistanly got 1hr times, just gotta get that next step to around 0:55).

It's basically 90 mins (real time) of 100% concentration and a trick fest that can come unrailed at any moment, and it can be really disheartening to be flying along then have something really stupid totally ruin your run (I'm looking at you Spring ball with Ice beam glitch).

It must be a coincedence, but last night I did my first ever any% SS run, It was a truly amazing feeling, almost liberating to not have to collect all of the out of the way items, with rediculous tricks to get them. I didn't actually finish the run, I died in lower Norfair, but it was a awesome feeling to be doing something fresh.

Anyway good luck with your new run, hopefully it wont be too long untill you have something great for us all to watch.

Behemoth

2011-04-08 08:19:26 am

That is a funny coincidence. The good thing about any% runs is that you can do like 3,4 or 5 a day and not even feel that fatigued or bored with it. So you can get your skill up pretty quickly. 100% on the other hand, you do one run and it's like "right well I think I'm done for the day". You don't exactly want to keep playing because you know that it's another 90 minutes of high level concentration to do the hard tricks, boredom and inevitable disappointment 99% of the time. They really take up a lot of time and they eat up the days hours very quickly. I commend you for having done this run for 10 - 12 months. I've given up after 6, hah ! well for the time being at least. For the Ice ceiling glitch just try doing exactly what I do but as your on NTSC (I think) shoot the hopper immediately as you touch the ceiling.

For any% don't worry about lower Norfair, it's one of the hardest parts of the run. One of my attempts ended down there yesterday too.

Behemoth

Edit history:

Behemoth: 2011-04-08 01:42:31 pm

2011-04-08 01:40:11 pm

I forgot to mention actually that I got the 0:33 and I didn't even do murder beam on mother brain (forgot mostly). So that would have been 10 - 15 seconds faster by default. Another confidence booster for my run Razz

F-Bomb

2011-05-04 05:01:25 pm

The Bomb that says it all .!..

Thanks for the tips on the NTSC thread.

Any Idea on when this 100% run is going to be up on SDA?

I've been checking every day but to no avail.

Behemoth

2011-05-04 06:46:11 pm

I've been checking too. It's a taking a fair amount of time but then I think my any% took about this long for a topic on the verification section to come about. I just hope there wasn't any problem with the video itself, but I'm sure I would have been notified if there was something drastically wrong with the video like segments missing or whatever. I think SDA are going through a heap of games so I think everybodys run is taking a long time, I would expect a topic on the verification section to appear within the next month.

Or maybe my run itself is just having a hard time going through verification, which I bloody hope not Think

Behemoth

Edit history:

Behemoth: 2011-05-14 11:44:04 am

2011-05-14 11:42:57 am

Small update of my progress on the any%.

It's going very well !. I can say for certain that 0:31 is totally not feasible at all, 0:32 on the other hand is a perfect goal. It's very very difficult as I'm nearly constantly getting 0:33 but they are certainly mid to high ones. I still occasionally get 0:34 though.

I recorded a 0:33 last night that reads 56:50 on the DVD. I looked at my old DVD containing my SDA run and that reads 57:54. so I'm more than a minute faster than that run. The SDA run I calculated (although I'm not certain) is around the 34:40 range. So I therefore assume this is something like 33:30. The run started off ok but climbing up Crateria shaft I got hit and didn't recover health. So in the bat room before Torizo I stuck around for at least 10 seconds trying to grab health before torizo, and making a mess of that as well (getting hit by bats lol). After that, I did Torizo skip. So I could easily omit those 10 seconds from the run. Phantoon was average, fast pattern then slow pattern, Botwoon was abysmal, Draygon 3 rounder + blue suit but I crashed my shinespark right at the start. It feels like every run I do has to have the same amount of mistakes to keep me on my current time threshold. I've somehow got to break that barrier and minimize these mistakes to hopefully just about get a high 0:32.

Small update of my progress on the any%.

It's going very well !. I can say for certain that 0:31 is totally not feasible at all, 0:32 on the other hand is a perfect goal. It's very very difficult as I'm nearly constantly getting 0:33 but they are certainly mid to high ones. I still occasionally get 0:34 though.

I recorded a 0:33 last night that reads 56:50 on the DVD. I looked at my old DVD containing my SDA run and that reads 57:54. so I'm more than a minute faster than that run. The SDA run I calculated (although I'm not certain) is around the 34:40 range. So I therefore assume this is something like 33:30. The run started off ok but climbing up Crateria shaft I got hit and didn't recover health. So in the bat room before Torizo I stuck around for at least 10 seconds trying to grab health before torizo, and making a mess of that as well (getting hit by bats lol). After that, I did Torizo skip. So I could easily omit those 10 seconds from the run. Phantoon was average, fast pattern then slow pattern, Botwoon was abysmal, Draygon 3 rounder + blue suit but I crashed my shinespark right at the start. It feels like every run I do has to have the same amount of mistakes to keep me on my current time threshold. I've somehow got to break that barrier and minimize these mistakes to hopefully just about get a high 0:32.

Quietus

2011-05-14 03:04:48 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I suspect it's like most runs, in that you'll make so many attempts, and they'll all be the same, with mistakes here and there, and then it'll just come together on one attempt, and you'll have achieved your goal. Just keep pluggin' away! aiwebs_013

Reeve

2011-05-15 10:00:52 am

It's good to know that you have problems with Crateria Shaft too, cause it really pisses me off! I don't kbow, sometimes i can climb walljumping really fast and don't have any problems, but sometimes it seems i forgot how to walljump and fall or hit the ledge and then a pirate damages me. It's really annoying. Also, if i get hit while climbing, i usually manaile to recover my health while still climbing, but if i can't, i go to Torizo without stopping to refill and just hope for lucky with torizo gunk drops, if i'm not, then it's a reset.

Behemoth

Edit history:

Behemoth: 2011-05-15 01:23:18 pm

2011-05-15 01:22:54 pm

Well I used to go straight to Torizo and hope I got lucky but that never seemed to happen and would just get too much health and no missiles from him. So now I go and try and hit one bat, it drops health and move straight on, but like I say I messed it up and got hit by bats anyway which wasted the ten odd seconds. But generally speaking I shouldn't accept none of this full stop.