One of Nesvideos finest TAS is done!! JXQ's 100% run!

2006-04-23 09:41:43 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from moozooh:

While I absolutely agree with this, my point about segmentation and saves was about the definition of "real time" versus "tool-assisted time". SABERinBLUE expressed the same opinion as me earlier (but I didn't notice it immediately, cause it was an edit).

Considering MonsterERB, I wrote an explanation above (though, you've already answered to it, so that topic is closed as well).

My guess is that the time displayed was via the stuff you guys do, and as such is not achievable by a human being. Calling it a "real" time may give the interpretation that it can be achieved by a person playing on their Super Nintendo, which it is not. It is merely trying to differentiate. Time and "time" were perhaps better usage instead of the word "real" there.

Besides, don't you guys go by the amount of time the actual movie is anyway?

Quote from moozooh:

One shouldn't expect hostility as well. :)

One shouldn't expect anything when going somewhere else. Not everywhere is the same. :o

[quote="moozooh"]While I absolutely agree with this, my point about segmentation and saves was about the definition of "real time" versus "tool-assisted time". SABERinBLUE expressed the same opinion as me earlier (but I didn't notice it immediately, cause it was an edit).

Considering MonsterERB, I wrote an explanation above (though, you've already answered to it, so that topic is closed as well).[/quote]

My guess is that the time displayed was via the stuff you guys do, and as such is not achievable by a human being.  Calling it a "real" time may give the interpretation that it can be achieved by a person playing on their Super Nintendo, which it is not.  It is merely trying to differentiate.  Time and "time" were perhaps better usage instead of the word "real" there.

Besides, don't you guys go by the amount of time the actual movie is anyway?

[quote="moozooh"]One shouldn't expect hostility as well. :)[/quote]

One shouldn't expect anything when going somewhere else.  Not everywhere is the same.  :o

JXQ

2006-04-23 09:47:21 pm

Quote from nate:

i think that once i present my viewpoint, it will become clear to everyone why i seem to be friendly to the concept of tas, putting both time and money into its development here, and yet at the same time seem to be so hostile toward the tas "mothership" as it were.

I'll actually be quite interested in reading this. I'm even surprised to hear you say you are friendly to the concept. Thanks for removing your current signature.

Quote from nate:

in addition, i was curious as to why you declined to use mockballs coming up from getting missiles and after the bombs boss. there seems to be some slowdown when samus touches the ground after moving through the air, and i thought that this was why scarlet made such extensive use of mockballs in her 0:55, specifically at those locations.

The shoulder-pumping run is surprisingly faster than the mockball if the distance is great enough, although I don't know where you mean by "coming up from getting the missiles", so I can't confirm it there. Could you give a frame number or avi time?

Quote from Arkarian:

I have not used my moderator powers once in this entire thread. And even if I had, why would that invalidate my points?

If I'm getting to know you through posting, then your post that reminds us all that you are a moderator and that your definition of flaming is what will go if you are the particular moderator in the case makes me think that you are putting a large amount of emphasis on this. Combining this with your way of trying to decree which posts are flames and which are jokes, simply based on how much you think you know the posters, makes it appear that you will be quick your modding based on how much you think you know the posters as well. Doesn't seem productive to me, and it really doesn't concern me, but you asked.

Quote from Red Scarlet:

What I don't get is why most of you guys from Bisqwit seem to ONLY respond to these types of topics here.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but this site is known for being anti-TAS - whether that is true or not. Even if Nate was the only one to speak out against it, he did so very emphatically. That would shy away some people. Also, Metroid isn't the only game I've TASed, but I'm not going to talk on here about my TAS to Sonic, Smash TV, or Super Demo World, because the site isn't for that purpose. So for a topic like this, a TASer actually has something to say, so sometimes they do.

Quote from Red Scarlet:

Which befuddles me, because as he already knows from the Fusion 0% topic being created, it is already being done long before yesterday. So I don't get why he's even asking this.

I'm pointing out that even if you (not you specifically) are very against TASing, it has helpful applications in a site that is designed to compile information on Metroid sequence breaking. So it further confuses me to see some of the anti-attitudes about it for this specific site, when it could be used to enhance it. I understand that it's Nate's site and it's a democracy and blah blah blah blah....geez, of course that was all assumed. I'm just stating my view.

Quote from Red Scarlet:

Besides, don't you guys go by the amount of time the actual movie is anyway?

Yes we do, that's why I aimed for frame count instead of in-game time when optimizing.

In regards to the quotes on "0:39" (which I think has been blown way out of proportion by this point), I think that it could have been put differently - but, so could have my first post, so it is what it is.

[quote="nate"]i think that once i present my viewpoint, it will become clear to everyone why i seem to be friendly to the concept of tas, putting both time and money into its development here, and yet at the same time seem to be so hostile toward the tas "mothership" as it were.[/quote]
I'll actually be quite interested in reading this.  I'm even surprised to hear you say you are friendly to the concept.  Thanks for removing your current signature.

[quote="nate"]in addition, i was curious as to why you declined to use mockballs coming up from getting missiles and after the bombs boss. there seems to be some slowdown when samus touches the ground after moving through the air, and i thought that this was why scarlet made such extensive use of mockballs in her 0:55, specifically at those locations.[/quote]
The shoulder-pumping run is surprisingly faster than the mockball if the distance is great enough, although I don't know where you mean by "coming up from getting the missiles", so I can't confirm it there.  Could you give a frame number or avi time?

[quote="Arkarian"]I have not used my moderator powers once in this entire thread. And even if I had, why would that invalidate my points?[/quote]
If I'm getting to know you through posting, then your post that reminds us all that you are a moderator and that your definition of flaming is what will go if you are the particular moderator in the case makes me think that you are putting a large amount of emphasis on this.  Combining this with your way of trying to decree which posts are flames and which are jokes, simply based on how much you think you know the posters, makes it appear that you will be quick your modding based on how much you think you know the posters as well.  Doesn't seem productive to me, and it really doesn't concern me, but you asked.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]What I don't get is why most of you guys from Bisqwit seem to ONLY respond to these types of topics here.[/quote]
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but this site is known for being anti-TAS - whether that is true or not.  Even if Nate was the only one to speak out against it, he did so very emphatically.  That would shy away some people.  Also, Metroid isn't the only game I've TASed, but I'm not going to talk on here about my TAS to Sonic, Smash TV, or Super Demo World, because the site isn't for that purpose.  So for a topic like this, a TASer actually has something to say, so sometimes they do.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]Which befuddles me, because as he already knows from the Fusion 0% topic being created, it is already being done long before yesterday. So I don't get why he's even asking this.[/quote]
I'm pointing out that even if you (not you specifically) are very against TASing, it has helpful applications in a site that is designed to compile information on Metroid sequence breaking.  So it further confuses me to see some of the anti-attitudes about it for this specific site, when it could be used to enhance it.  I understand that it's Nate's site and it's a democracy and blah blah blah blah....geez, of course that was all assumed.  I'm just stating my view.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]Besides, don't you guys go by the amount of time the actual movie is anyway?[/quote]
Yes we do, that's why I aimed for frame count instead of in-game time when optimizing.

In regards to the quotes on "0:39" (which I think has been blown way out of proportion by this point), I think that it could have been put differently - but, so could have my first post, so it is what it is.

DJGrenola

2006-04-23 09:49:07 pm

As a gesture of goodwill, I have mirrored JXQs TAS on some webspace I have. Bandwidth is limited, so until mills gets the run mirrored, anyone who wants the avi and genuinely cannot get it via bittorrent can send me a pm and I will supply them with the URL.

Of course once I give the link to a few people, half the internet will know about it and my mirror will die, so I will remove the file at the end of this month.

Red Scarlet

2006-04-23 10:00:07 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from JXQ:

The shoulder-pumping run is surprisingly faster than the mockball if the distance is great enough, although I don't know where you mean by "coming up from getting the missiles", so I can't confirm it there. Could you give a frame number or avi time?

Maybe he means after the very first Missile Tank? I don't remember if you mockballed after getting it or not (which I did, and which may be what Nate is referring to).

Quote from JXQ:

I'm pointing out that even if you (not you specifically) are very against TASing, it has helpful applications in a site that is designed to compile information on Metroid sequence breaking. So it further confuses me to see some of the anti-attitudes about it for this specific site, when it could be used to enhance it. I understand that it's Nate's site and it's a democracy and blah blah blah blah....geez, of course that was all assumed. I'm just stating my view.

Has there been anything extremely groundbreaking that can also be performed on the console version or is it just emulator only? Or is it "jump closer to the ledge to save time"? What are some examples of such breaks that have been found that are not exclusive to doing it on an emulator with slowdown? As earlier said maybe Nate prefers showcasing what anyone that owns the game can reproduce, not via the rom/emulator only. The stuff known about here (such as the 0% Fusion) are in their own categories aren't they?

It's not a democracy though (which I'm sure is what you meant to say).

[quote="JXQ"]The shoulder-pumping run is surprisingly faster than the mockball if the distance is great enough, although I don't know where you mean by "coming up from getting the missiles", so I can't confirm it there.  Could you give a frame number or avi time?[/quote]

Maybe he means after the very first Missile Tank?  I don't remember if you mockballed after getting it or not (which I did, and which may be what Nate is referring to).

[quote="JXQ"]I'm pointing out that even if you (not you specifically) are very against TASing, it has helpful applications in a site that is designed to compile information on Metroid sequence breaking.  So it further confuses me to see some of the anti-attitudes about it for this specific site, when it could be used to enhance it.  I understand that it's Nate's site and it's a democracy and blah blah blah blah....geez, of course that was all assumed.  I'm just stating my view.[/quote]

Has there been anything extremely groundbreaking that can also be performed on the console version or is it just emulator only?  Or is it "jump closer to the ledge to save time"? What are some examples of such breaks that have been found that are not exclusive to doing it on an emulator with slowdown?  As earlier said maybe Nate prefers showcasing what anyone that owns the game can reproduce, not via the rom/emulator only.  The stuff known about here (such as the 0% Fusion) are in their own categories aren't they?

It's not a democracy though (which I'm sure is what you meant to say).

moozooh

2006-04-23 10:48:21 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

Besides, don't you guys go by the amount of time the actual movie is anyway?

To be more precise, by the input length. The game timer is not to be trusted anyway (the input stops after 01:13:10, which is almost twice the in-game "real time"). The "00:39" mark can be a kind of reference for console runners, like the estimated absolute record. That provide some distinctness on this matter. In a couple of months we'll know the same for the any% run (Saturn thinks sub-20 time for any% is possible).

Quote from Red Scarlet:

Has there been anything extremely groundbreaking that can also be performed on the console version or is it just emulator only?

Well, as far as I can see, none of the "exclusive" tricks featured in the movie are 100% irreproducible on a console. Some of them just require some extra fast button pressing to be more or less effective in conventional playthrough, and the others are just not impossible (i.e. either they require some exceptional luck or exceptional reflexes).

For example, it is possible to do arm pumping on a console, but for the most cases mockball would be more effective (however, slow arm pumping would still yield positive, albeit almost unnoticeable result in the other cases). Spring-speedballing, waterballing and other advanced ball techniques are definitely possible on the console, as well as the tricks involving manipulating Samus's hitbox. You occasionally used most of them in your run.

I doubt there was anything "extremely groundbreaking" (well, it depends on what to count groundbreaking) at all, most of the time saved came from careful planning and smooth playing. Major tricks rarely save much time, the consistent and precise use of small ones do. The only exception to this are boss fights.

Edit: numerous wording issues. Gotta sleep more.

Edit 2: Thanks, Grenola!

[quote="Red Scarlet"]Besides, don't you guys go by the amount of time the actual movie is anyway?[/quote]
To be more precise, by the input length. The game timer is not to be trusted anyway (the input stops after 01:13:10, which is almost twice the in-game "real time"). The "00:39" mark can be a kind of reference for console runners, like the estimated absolute record. That provide some distinctness on this matter. In a couple of months we'll know the same for the any% run (Saturn thinks sub-20 time for any% is possible).

[quote="Red Scarlet"]Has there been anything extremely groundbreaking that can also be performed on the console version or is it just emulator only?[/quote]
Well, as far as I can see, none of the "exclusive" tricks featured in the movie are 100% irreproducible on a console. Some of them just require some extra fast button pressing to be more or less effective in conventional playthrough, and the others are just [i]not impossible[/i] (i.e. either they require some exceptional luck or exceptional reflexes).

For example, it is possible to do arm pumping on a console, but for the most cases mockball would be more effective (however, slow arm pumping would still yield positive, albeit almost unnoticeable result in the other cases). Spring-speedballing, waterballing and other advanced ball techniques are definitely possible on the console, as well as the tricks involving manipulating Samus's hitbox. You occasionally used most of them in your run.

I doubt there was anything "extremely groundbreaking" (well, it depends on what to count groundbreaking) at all, most of the time saved came from careful planning and smooth playing. Major tricks rarely save much time, the consistent and precise use of small ones do. The only exception to this are boss fights.

[size=11px]Edit: numerous wording issues. Gotta sleep more.

Edit 2: Thanks, Grenola![/size]

SABERinBLUE

2006-04-23 11:02:15 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from moozooh:

Back to the point, I still would like you to tell me the indisputable criteria of what is to be considered a flame. It is twice as important to know how do you use your power once you have it.

That's out of line. Read the rules, and if it's still not clear (it may well not be) you can ask him in PM or start a thread in the feedback forum if you think it's a really big deal. Don't lecture us on how to do our job. We're not perfect and we can be wrong, but that doesn't give you call to bring the moderating system of this site into question in this manner.

moozooh

2006-04-23 11:13:27 pm

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

you can ask him in PM or start a thread in the feedback forum if you think it's a really big deal.

Nope, I don't...

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Don't lecture us on how to do our job.

...neither I do that.

LordJimmy

2006-04-23 11:29:01 pm

Aww, it's out of sinc for me.

moozooh

2006-04-23 11:35:35 pm

Quote from LordJimmy:

Aww, it's out of sinc for me.

What snes9x and rom version are you using? Have you changed some settings? Did you wait a couple of seconds before playing the movie? :)

Chanoire

2006-04-24 02:29:54 am

Wow, lots and lots happened. I was going to reply to something and saw that the last post in the topic review was completely new to me...and that's when I realized there'd been two more pages of posts. Shocked

Looks like most things have been taken care of, though, which is nice to see. Just wanted to comment on one or two things.

Most things are ultimately subjective judgment calls. Obviously modding will be one of them. Some stuff will be straightforward, such as ROM linkage, some stuff will be less clear-cut...such as what constitutes flaming. The same posts could be friendly insults between people who get along and trolling/flaming between people who don't. I don't see why this necessary case-by-case treatment should be surprising, or why a response explaining this by the person who has to make that judgment is seen as throwing his weight around. Pressing repeatedly to define the undefinable beyond the extent in the posted rules which one assumes every forum member has read does indeed read like telling people how to do their jobs to me.

The whole quotation mark thing came from a comment of JXQ's; Ark and others surely wouldn't have raised an issue otherwise. Glad that seems to be resolved.

As other people have said, there's a wide range of opinions and usage of emulators. I don't use them at all and it really is nontrivial to change this even if I had the time and ability to become a Kejardon acolyte, my primary incentive; that doesn't mean I don't want to watch their product (and in fact I intend to request that url from Grenola, since my sysadmin/fiancé tells me that setting up my comp to deal with torrents would also be nontrivial). Monster surely has his own issues, which may or may not be the same as mine; his statement that he hasn't installed one and probably never will is not necessarily disdain. I remember people at my old main MB saying the same about playing Metroid Prime because they were absolutely never going to play a FPS without a keyboard/mouse. I've indulged in overdramatic horror of emulation to people who as far as I know were completely uninterested in making TASes, by the way, largely to make fun of the person writing EMU as if it were an acronym (and making assumptions instead of inquiring before giving useless advice).

This thread has been interesting reading. For which I thank JXQ for the entertainment, even if not quite what he'd intended. ;) And now I will go take steps to appreciate the intended entertainment.

Wow, lots and lots happened.  I was going to reply to something and saw that the last post in the topic review was completely new to me...and that's when I realized there'd been two more pages of posts.  :shock:  Looks like most things have been taken care of, though, which is nice to see.  Just wanted to comment on one or two things.

Most things are ultimately subjective judgment calls.  Obviously modding will be one of them.  Some stuff will be straightforward, such as ROM linkage, some stuff will be less clear-cut...such as what constitutes flaming.  The same posts could be friendly insults between people who get along and trolling/flaming between people who don't.  I don't see why this necessary case-by-case treatment should be surprising, or why a response explaining this by the person who has to make that judgment is seen as throwing his weight around.  Pressing repeatedly to define the undefinable beyond the extent in the posted rules which one assumes every forum member has read does indeed read like telling people how to do their jobs to me.

The whole quotation mark thing came from a comment of JXQ's; Ark and others surely wouldn't have raised an issue otherwise.   Glad that seems to be resolved.

As other people have said, there's a wide range of opinions and usage of emulators.  I don't use them at all and it really is nontrivial to change this even if I had the time and ability to become a Kejardon acolyte, my primary incentive; that doesn't mean I don't want to watch their product (and in fact I intend to request that url from Grenola, since my sysadmin/fiancé tells me that setting up my comp to deal with torrents would also be nontrivial).  Monster surely has his own issues, which may or may not be the same as mine; his statement that he hasn't installed one and probably never will is not necessarily disdain.  I remember people at my old main MB saying the same about playing Metroid Prime because they were absolutely never going to play a FPS without a keyboard/mouse.  I've indulged in overdramatic horror of emulation to people who as far as I know were completely uninterested in making TASes, by the way, largely to make fun of the person writing EMU as if it were an acronym (and making assumptions instead of inquiring before giving useless advice).

This thread has been interesting reading.  For which I thank JXQ for the entertainment, even if not quite what he'd intended. ;)  And now I will go take steps to appreciate the intended entertainment.

Saturn

2006-04-24 03:04:28 am

Quote from nate:

in addition, i was curious as to why you declined to use mockballs coming up from getting missiles and after the bombs boss. there seems to be some slowdown when samus touches the ground after moving through the air, and i thought that this was why scarlet made such extensive use of mockballs in her 0:55, specifically at those locations.

You always have to slowdown at some point. If you use a mockball you skip the slowdown after touching the ground but you have to when you raise up from it again (which is not the case when you already run). As JXQ mentioned arm-pumping is still somewhat faster than the mockball so it's faster to use it in most cases.

JXQ:
He ment the long room with the many small enemies right before the bomb-torizo.

Red Scarlet

2006-04-24 04:16:45 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

In my case, it was keeping my speed for as long as I could before I had to slow down (or until I was at a point I could speed up). As Saturn said, since the arm pump thing is faster, it is better to do that than mockball in standing room it sounds like if the person can do it (which doesn't sound like a realistic option in real-time).

transience

2006-04-24 06:00:57 am

twenty eight fifty

i figured that after all this silly arguing, i'd see what the actual topic is about. scarlet and i just watched the video together - we both seem to agree that while there's some new stuff in there, just about none of it would be of use to a console runner. a couple of things caught my eye, but it would be maybe a second of speed gained and a hundred times more difficult. maridia is probably the area that could use some scrutiny - i liked the energy tank that you diagonally sparked to, though i think it would be extremely difficult to do in real time. there was another room that you sparked through that looked interesting, but it would need to be frame-perfect. everything else looks, well, like a tas. i felt sorry for the bosses.

Red Scarlet

2006-04-24 06:07:13 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I believe I found something that could be done faster. Nothing big, though. But maybe half a second (does the game slow down when you use a powerbomb? If so then maybe a second).

The Missile Tank you go for at ~57:30 (aka the last one in Lower Norfair), you drop a Power Bomb and wait for it to go off to break a block to get to the Missile. You can break that block with a Screw Attack which I imagine would be slightly quicker than waiting for the Power Bomb explosion to go off.

Transience agrees that it would save some time/frames, at least not doing a full jump there. It seems miniscule, but my guess is that you could unmorph and do a quick Screw Attack through the block and re-morph before the PB blast would get there (and not jumping all the way up).

LordJimmy

2006-04-24 07:39:42 am

Quote from moozooh:

Quote from LordJimmy:

Aww, it's out of sinc for me.

What snes9x and rom version are you using? Have you changed some settings? Did you wait a couple of seconds before playing the movie? :)

I'm using SNES9XW v.1.4.0.0

I don't know about the rom version, but can't you tell by the size? It's 3,146,240 bytes and 3,149,824 bytes on disk.

Hope hope this helps, because I really want to see this.

13M13

2006-04-24 08:32:03 am

l'appel du vide

Use v1.43+ v9.

Also, check your rom with NSRT and make sure the CRC32 reads "D63ED5F8".

Kyrsimys

2006-04-24 08:32:16 am

Well your emulator is definitely out of date. Get nitsuja's improved version here. Your ROM's size doesn't match mine but I'm not sure if that's an issue. If changing the emulator doesn't work, look for a ROM named Super Metroid (JU), with or without the [!] in the end.

EDIT: Ach, beaten to it.

LordJimmy

2006-04-24 09:04:47 am

It's getting late. I'll try all this on Wednsday. Thanks for the help.

JXQ

2006-04-24 10:01:24 am

Quote from Red Scarlet:

The Missile Tank you go for at ~57:30 (aka the last one in Lower Norfair), you drop a Power Bomb and wait for it to go off to break a block to get to the Missile. You can break that block with a Screw Attack which I imagine would be slightly quicker than waiting for the Power Bomb explosion to go off.

GAahh...I missed a screw attack block. Yeah this is an improvement (definitely in real-time and most probably in game-time as well). I'll add it to the list. (Edit: I'm not currently working on an improvement, just keeping this list for my own interest)

Quote from transience:

i felt sorry for the bosses.

Thanks :-)

GemSweater

2006-04-24 10:14:20 am

I'm glad (most of)the arguing has come to a halt and the thread is back on topic.

I've watched clips of a SM tas before and was very unimpressed. This run is astounding.

Took me about an hour to figure out the codec stuff. Which, I never really figured out and ended up downloading the program Scarlet suggested(thanks btw, I was losing my mind).

Looking forward to seeing the improved version of all the small half-second saving tricks you're fixing, that is if you are.

nate

2006-04-24 10:49:36 am

meant 5:50 in the avi about the mockball. it occurred to me after i posted that you do have to slow down after completing the mockball to get on the elevator, so it's probable that it's no faster than taking the speed hit earlier, but that's something for the frame counters to sort out.

scarlet, sorry for forgetting about that in your 1:00. i've seen the 0:55 probably 20 or 30 times since the 1:00, so i guess i've been brainwashed by it. :P

MonsterERB

2006-04-24 10:58:21 am

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

Quote from Chanoire:

...I can't speak for Monster but I not infrequently post on this board from work, where I am certainly not doing either downloading or watching.

Well don't take it out on everybody else just because you have a crummy computer/Internet connection!

Wow. This topic exploded since I logged on last Friday. I'll read the rest of pages 2-6 in a bit, but I'd like to respond to this bit. Chanoire hit the nail on the head. My post I'm making right now, as well as my other posts in the topic, were made from my work computer. It is a networked computer, sitting behind a firewall that I do not have the administative privileges to mess with. So, downloading ANY kind of executable software is iffy at best, and at worst brings you a nasty email from the network admin asking why you're downloading non-work-related software. So, downloading an SNES emulator to watch the vid wasn't an option. (My work computer is top-rate, and has an EXCELLENT connection, by the way.) I could have waited until I was home to try all of this, but I was curious as to the time... thus, my request that someone tell me the final clock time... and my frustration at being told "just watch the run".
...
Now, I'll get back to reading the topic. Wink

===
EDIT
===
Finished reading the topic.

Quote from moozooh:

Yet some of you (MonsterERB in particular) will not fail to express their dislike towards them and all that is associated with them, up to the point of disdain.

I don't think that's quite fair. Here are my previous posts in the topic:

Quote from MonsterERB:

Well, seeing as how I don't have the emulator loaded on my comp, mind telling what the final in-game time was? Total movie time was about 1:13, so I'm guessing it's going to beat Scarlet's 0:55. And, of course, a TAS'er wouldn't bother releasing a vid unless it shattered the console record anyway.
...
And, over 100 thousand re-records?? :? Now that's some skill right there.

Quote from MonsterERB:

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

Skill is measured in re-records now?

Yep. Fewer the better. Ideal would be zero, but even console runners attempt segments multiple times - so that's a kind of "re-record" depending on how you look at it.

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

Well, if you want to know what the final time was, just watch the movie, yo.

Never mind, then. I'm not planning on watching the movie anyway, as:
(a) I'm quite happy playing SM on my SNES console. The one time I tried to play via ROM/ZSNES felt completely unnatural using a keyboard.
(b) Scarlet's 0:55 is 100x more awesome than any TAS run could ever be.
(c) Note that (b) is just my opinion, but I'm not about to change my mind anytime soon.

Quote from MonsterERB:

I'm not trying to start a "console vs tas" fight again. Everyone has their opinion on the topic, which is fine with me. I prefer console runs, for reasons I've stated before, and others prefer tas runs. Again, that's fine with me. I'm sure that, as far as tas runs go, that this one is top-notch. They're just not my cup of tea.
...
The thing that was a bit annoying was that although I'm not planning on watching the movie, I would like to know (out of sheer curiosity) what the final in-game time was. I asked this, and a couple of different people basically said, "Not gonna tell you, it would ruin the surprise." Sheesh. I suppose I should have made it clear in my first post that I wasn't going to watch the movie... but too late now.
...
If someone who knows the clock time is willing to tell me, but doesn't want to spoil it for everyone else, just send me a PM.

Quote from MonsterERB:

Quote from nate:

..and many thanks, monster, for being so siggable...

* doesn't see anything he posted here in nate's sig, or anyone's sig, for that matter *
* scratches his head *
You're welcome, I guess.
...
If the run is ever released as a downloadable movie (.avi, .mpg, etc), I'll probably give it a watch just for giggles. But, it will be useless to me, as I would have zero chance to incorporate any of these tricks into any run I could do on my SNES.

Quote from MonsterERB:

Quote from nate:

Quote from MonsterERB:

[...] it will be useless to me, as I would have zero chance to incorporate any of these tricks into any run I could do on my SNES.

don't be so sure. i have it on good authority that tases can indeed be useful sometimes.

Well, if this TAS gets released as an .avi/.mpg, I'll watch it. Maybe I will see something I could replicate on the console... a new route, a cool trick, something. Plus, I'm sure the run will be entertaining in its own way - the "OMG how did you do that?" factor will be quite high.
...
Quick question for nate - notice your earlier post in this topic, where you thank me for being quite siggable? There is no quote from Monster in your sig for that post. Later in the topic, and in all your later posts, my quote about re-records appears in your sig. Is this a case of the "quoting borked" going on? I was under the impression that changing your sig text in your profile should change the sig text for ALL existing posts, not just the ones made from that point on.

I fail to see how my posts qualify as disdain for TAS runs. My comment in my first post regarding re-records was unnecessarily sarcastic, and not my finest moment. For that I apologize, as it seems to have touched off (yet again) a bunch of underlying hostilities. I will not be blamed for this fight, though... I certainly didn't CREATE these hostile feelings. Perhaps if I explained my reasoning for why I prefer console runs, my comments could be taken in context.
...
I'm 34 (born in 1972, during the Nixon administration), wife, 3 kids, job, etc. Started playing video games in 1980 with standup versions of PacMan, Galaga, Donkey Kong, etc. My first console was the Atari 2600, back in Xmas of 1981. When I first saw the NES (a friend's house, where he was playing Super Mario Brothers) I was BLOWN AWAY by the graphics. I began playing video games before the advent of the internet - I literally didn't learn to use a browser until I was about 21 years old. I grew up in an age when videogames could only possibly be played on consoles - so, naturally I feel most comfortable playing with a controller instead of a keyboard. I also grew up playing games where reflexes and hand-eye coordination were of utmost importance (Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, anyone?).
...
When I say I prefer console runs, it's not because I think TAS'es are cheated or illegal. I don't. It's because my appreciation is less for the run, and more for the runner, if that makes sense. I prefer console runs because the moves are pulled off in real-time, showing reflexes and coordination - what I call "skill". (This is MY definition and opinion. I'm entitled to it. Bear with me.) I watch a console run and marvel at the "skill" of the runner - and I look for tricks and techniques I can copy, to try to get close to that level of performance. When I watch a TAS, I know that the run is being done using tools of slowdown, re-records, frame advance, etc. To me, as perfect as the TAS ever looks, it does not show gaming "skill". It shows thorough knowledge of the game's mechanics, it shows hours upon hours of hard work, and it shows the theoretical limits of the game, if it were played by someone with perfect reflex and skill. I admire the dedication of the TASer, but I prefer to watch a console run, as it appeals to my "old-school" gaming upbringing.
...
I tried to explain in my second post what I meant about re-records, but it didn't come across (although I DID mention CLEARLY that segmented console runs can be considered to use re-records). I'll try again. My criterion for appreciation is "gaming skill", which is quite likely an unusual primary consideration. I don't care as much how the run looks, I am impressed primarily in the gaming skill of the runner (which, as I said, I personally define as reflexes and hand-eye coordination). That said, the skill level required increases as the number of re-records (or segment attempts) decreases - so a single-segmented run shows the most skill. My greater appreciation for console runs is a personal preference, to which I am completely entitled. Just as those who prefer TAS'es are entitled to their preference.
...
Lastly, I obviously cannot compel nate to do anything, but I would truly appreciate it if he removed my comment from his signature. As I said, it was flippant and slightly rude, and I think its continual presence in nate's sig is less than helpful.
===
EDIT 2
===
It appears as if my quote is no longer in nate's sig anyway, so nevermind that bit. Wink

[quote="Ryan Ferneau"][quote="Chanoire"]...I can't speak for Monster but I not infrequently post on this board from work, where I am certainly not doing either downloading or watching.[/quote]
Well don't take it out on everybody else just because you have a crummy computer/Internet connection![/quote]
Wow.  This topic exploded since I logged on last Friday.  I'll read the rest of pages 2-6 in a bit, but I'd like to respond to this bit.  Chanoire hit the nail on the head.  My post I'm making right now, as well as my other posts in the topic, were made from my work computer.  It is a networked computer, sitting behind a firewall that I do not have the administative privileges to mess with.  So, downloading ANY kind of executable software is iffy at best, and at worst brings you a nasty email from the network admin asking why you're downloading non-work-related software.  So, downloading an SNES emulator to watch the vid wasn't an option.  (My work computer is top-rate, and has an EXCELLENT connection, by the way.)  I could have waited until I was home to try all of this, but I was curious as to the time... thus, my request that someone tell me the final clock time... and my frustration at being told "just watch the run".
...
Now, I'll get back to reading the topic.  :wink:
===
EDIT
===
Finished reading the topic.  [quote="moozooh"]Yet some of you (MonsterERB in particular) will not fail to express their dislike towards them and all that is associated with them, up to the point of disdain.[/quote]
I don't think that's quite fair.  Here are my previous posts in the topic:
[quote="MonsterERB"]Well, seeing as how I don't have the emulator loaded on my comp, mind telling what the final in-game time was?  Total movie time was about 1:13, so I'm guessing it's going to beat Scarlet's 0:55.  And, of course, a TAS'er wouldn't bother releasing a vid unless it shattered the console record anyway.
...
And, over 100 thousand re-records??  :?  Now that's some skill right there.[/quote]
[quote="MonsterERB"][quote="Ryan Ferneau"]Skill is measured in re-records now?[/quote]
Yep.  Fewer the better.  Ideal would be zero, but even console runners attempt segments multiple times - so that's a kind of "re-record" depending on how you look at it.

[quote="Ryan Ferneau"]Well, if you want to know what the final time was, just watch the movie, yo.[/quote]
Never mind, then.  I'm not planning on watching the movie anyway, as:
(a) I'm quite happy playing SM on my SNES console.  The one time I tried to play via ROM/ZSNES felt completely unnatural using a keyboard.
(b) Scarlet's 0:55 is 100x more awesome than any TAS run could ever be.
(c) Note that (b) is just my opinion, but I'm not about to change my mind anytime soon.[/quote]

[quote="MonsterERB"]I'm not trying to start a "console vs tas" fight again. Everyone has their opinion on the topic, which is fine with me. I prefer console runs, for reasons I've stated before, and others prefer tas runs. Again, that's fine with me. I'm sure that, as far as tas runs go, that this one is top-notch. They're just not my cup of tea. 
... 
The thing that was a bit annoying was that although I'm not planning on watching the movie, I would like to know (out of sheer curiosity) what the final in-game time was. I asked this, and a couple of different people basically said, "Not gonna tell you, it would ruin the surprise." Sheesh. I suppose I should have made it clear in my first post that I wasn't going to watch the movie... but too late now. 
... 
If someone who knows the clock time is willing to tell me, but doesn't want to spoil it for everyone else, just send me a PM.[/quote]

[quote="MonsterERB"][quote="nate"]..and many thanks, monster, for being so siggable...[/quote]
* doesn't see anything he posted here in nate's sig, or anyone's sig, for that matter *
* scratches his head *
You're welcome, I guess.
...
If the run is ever released as a downloadable movie (.avi, .mpg, etc), I'll probably give it a watch just for giggles.  But, it will be useless to me, as I would have zero chance to incorporate any of these tricks into any run I could do on my SNES.[/quote]

[quote="MonsterERB"][quote="nate"][quote="MonsterERB"][...] it will be useless to me, as I would have zero chance to incorporate any of these tricks into any run I could do on my SNES.[/quote]
don't be so sure. i have it on good authority that tases can indeed be useful sometimes.[/quote]
Well, if this TAS gets released as an .avi/.mpg, I'll watch it.  Maybe I will see something I could replicate on the console... a new route, a cool trick, something.  Plus, I'm sure the run will be entertaining in its own way - the "OMG how did you do that?" factor will be quite high.
...
Quick question for nate - notice your earlier post in this topic, where you thank me for being quite siggable?  There is no quote from Monster in your sig for that post.  Later in the topic, and in all your later posts, my quote about re-records appears in your sig.  Is this a case of the "quoting borked" going on?  I was under the impression that changing your sig text in your profile should change the sig text for ALL existing posts, not just the ones made from that point on.[/quote]
I fail to see how my posts qualify as disdain for TAS runs.  My comment in my first post regarding re-records was unnecessarily sarcastic, and not my finest moment.  For that I apologize, as it seems to have touched off (yet again) a bunch of underlying hostilities.  I will not be blamed for this fight, though... I certainly didn't CREATE these hostile feelings.  Perhaps if I explained my reasoning for why I prefer console runs, my comments could be taken in context.
...
I'm 34 (born in 1972, during the Nixon administration), wife, 3 kids, job, etc.  Started playing video games in 1980 with standup versions of PacMan, Galaga, Donkey Kong, etc.  My first console was the Atari 2600, back in Xmas of 1981.  When I first saw the NES (a friend's house, where he was playing Super Mario Brothers) I was BLOWN AWAY by the graphics.  I began playing video games before the advent of the internet - I literally didn't learn to use a browser until I was about 21 years old.  I grew up in an age when videogames could only possibly be played on consoles - so, naturally I feel most comfortable playing with a controller instead of a keyboard.  I also grew up playing games where reflexes and hand-eye coordination were of utmost importance (Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, anyone?).
...
When I say I prefer console runs, it's not because I think TAS'es are cheated or illegal.  I don't.  It's because my appreciation is less for the run, and more for the runner, if that makes sense.  I prefer console runs because the moves are pulled off in real-time, showing reflexes and coordination - what I call "skill".  (This is MY definition and opinion.  I'm entitled to it.  Bear with me.)  I watch a console run and marvel at the "skill" of the runner - and I look for tricks and techniques I can copy, to try to get close to that level of performance.  When I watch a TAS, I know that the run is being done using tools of slowdown, re-records, frame advance, etc.  To me, as perfect as the TAS ever looks, it does not show gaming "skill".  It shows thorough knowledge of the game's mechanics, it shows hours upon hours of hard work, and it shows the theoretical limits of the game, if it were played by someone with perfect reflex and skill.  I admire the dedication of the TASer, but I prefer to watch a console run, as it appeals to my "old-school" gaming upbringing.
...
I tried to explain in my second post what I meant about re-records, but it didn't come across (although I DID mention CLEARLY that segmented console runs can be considered to use re-records).  I'll try again.  My criterion for appreciation is "gaming skill", which is quite likely an unusual primary consideration.  I don't care as much how the run looks, I am impressed primarily in the gaming skill of the runner (which, as I said, I personally define as reflexes and hand-eye coordination).  That said, the skill level required increases as the number of re-records (or segment attempts) decreases - so a single-segmented run shows the most skill.  My greater appreciation for console runs is a personal preference, to which I am completely entitled.  Just as those who prefer TAS'es are entitled to their preference.
...
Lastly, I obviously cannot compel nate to do anything, but I would truly appreciate it if he removed my comment from his signature.  As I said, it was flippant and slightly rude, and I think its continual presence in nate's sig is less than helpful.
===
EDIT 2
===
It appears as if my quote is no longer in nate's sig anyway, so nevermind that bit.  :wink:

BlueGlass

2006-04-24 01:57:01 pm

JXQ, I just looked at your improvement list and noticed under "general improvements" that you are trying to find out why space jump can sometimes be used after 5 frames but you must sometimes wait 23. The first secnario is when Samus is underwater, and the second is when she is not.

Saturn

2006-04-24 02:05:13 pm

Quote from nate:

due to past comments i have made on the subject of tas, it was perhaps inevitable that guest tasers here would interpret my threat as against them, when it was in fact intended to protect them.

Well, honestly, I can't see how you did that. All your comments in previous topics of TAS'es (especially the RBO topic) have shown very well that you were strongly against them. For me your reacting was a big surprise at that time. However as JXQ said it would be interesting to hear your fiewpoint about it.

Quote from moozooh:

In a couple of months we'll know the same for the any% run (Saturn thinks sub-20 time for any% is possible).

I don't believe a sub 20 any% is possible anymore. My first statement was a quick and unexperienced estimate. Teri's 27 min run (current TAS-record) is much better than I thought first, he only didn't use the pumping arm and some other minor tricks but overall his run is very optimized already. By sub 20 min run I was also thinking of a different route (Phantoon first) to save some detours, but now it's pretty clear that without the speed booster, high jump boots and more missiles you will slow down alot in Wrecked Ship and maybe the Phantoon first route will be even slower at the end. Now I believe a 24 or maybe even 23 min run is possible but very unlikely a sub 20 run.

Quote from Red Scarlet:

In my case, it was keeping my speed for as long as I could before I had to slow down (or until I was at a point I could speed up). As Saturn said, since the arm pump thing is faster, it is better to do that than mockball in standing room it sounds like if the person can do it (which doesn't sound like a realistic option in real-time).

You're right. On a console useing the mockball like you did is probably the fastest way. The pumping arm running variant is only faster in TAS conditions as the L button has to be hit 30 times a second to get full effect.

[quote="nate"]due to past comments i have made on the subject of tas, it was perhaps inevitable that guest tasers here would interpret my threat as against them, when it was in fact intended to protect them.[/quote]
Well, honestly, I can't see how you did that. All your comments in previous topics of TAS'es (especially the RBO topic) have shown very well that you were strongly against them. For me your reacting was a big surprise at that time. However as JXQ said it would be interesting to hear your fiewpoint about it.

[quote="moozooh"]In a couple of months we'll know the same for the any% run (Saturn thinks sub-20 time for any% is possible).[/quote]
I don't believe a sub 20 any% is possible anymore. My first statement was a quick and unexperienced estimate. Teri's 27 min run (current TAS-record) is much better than I thought first, he only didn't use the pumping arm and some other minor tricks but overall his run is very optimized already. By sub 20 min run I was also thinking of a different route (Phantoon first) to save some detours, but now it's pretty clear that without the speed booster, high jump boots and more missiles you will slow down alot in Wrecked Ship and maybe the Phantoon first route will be even slower at the end. Now I believe a 24 or maybe even 23 min run is possible but very unlikely a sub 20 run.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]In my case, it was keeping my speed for as long as I could before I had to slow down (or until I was at a point I could speed up). As Saturn said, since the arm pump thing is faster, it is better to do that than mockball in standing room it sounds like if the person can do it (which doesn't sound like a realistic option in real-time).[/quote]
You're right. On a console useing the mockball like you did is probably the fastest way. The pumping arm running variant is only faster in TAS conditions as the L button has to be hit 30 times a second to get full effect.

moozooh

2006-04-24 02:29:37 pm

Quote from MonsterERB:

I don't think that's quite fair

Well, I didn't mean only you, there were another posts throughout the history of the conflict (with much more ridiculous messages which -- thankfully -- got deleted). I guess I just got used to the general arrogance up to the point where we can see it even if it's not there. To be more precise, these were the parts that confused me:

Quote from MonsterERB:

Never mind, then. I'm not planning on watching the movie anyway, as:
(a) I'm quite happy playing SM on my SNES console. The one time I tried to play via ROM/ZSNES felt completely unnatural using a keyboard.

...As if watching a movie would require you to play SM via the emulator. :D
And another one, here:

Quote from MonsterERB:

I'm not planning on watching the movie anyway

[...]

I'll probably give it a watch just for giggles. But, it will be useless to me, as I would have zero chance to incorporate any of these tricks into any run I could do on my SNES.

[...]

Well, if this TAS gets released as an .avi/.mpg, I'll watch it. Maybe I will see something I could replicate on the console... a new route, a cool trick, something. Plus, I'm sure the run will be entertaining in its own way - the "OMG how did you do that?" factor will be quite high.

I don't know how to call that, honestly. :D
Sorry, if what.

Quote from Saturn:

Teri's 27 min run (current TAS-record) is much better than I thought first, he only didn't use the pumping arm and some other minor tricks but overall his run is very optimized already.

Well, judging from the boss battles and some other subtleties, I'd not dare to say his run is that optimized. Since that time, many crucial rooms were proven to be passed faster not only because of arm pumping. Anyway, we need someone to finish that run first -- with any route. :)
(It's a pity sub-20 run is not possible, though.)

[quote="MonsterERB"]I don't think that's quite fair[/quote]
Well, I didn't mean only you, there were another posts throughout the history of the conflict (with much more ridiculous messages which -- thankfully -- got deleted). I guess I just got used to the general arrogance up to the point where we can see it even if it's not there. To be more precise, these were the parts that confused me:
[quote="MonsterERB"]Never mind, then.  I'm not planning on watching the movie anyway, as:
(a) I'm quite happy playing SM on my SNES console.  The one time I tried to play via ROM/ZSNES felt completely unnatural using a keyboard.[/quote]
...As if watching a movie would require you to play SM via the emulator. :D
And another one, here:
[quote="MonsterERB"]I'm not planning on watching the movie anyway

[...]

I'll probably give it a watch just for giggles. But, it will be useless to me, as I would have zero chance to incorporate any of these tricks into any run I could do on my SNES.

[...]

Well, if this TAS gets released as an .avi/.mpg, I'll watch it.  Maybe I will see something I could replicate on the console... a new route, a cool trick, something.  Plus, I'm sure the run will be entertaining in its own way - the "OMG how did you do that?" factor will be quite high.[/quote]
I don't know how to call that, honestly. :D
Sorry, if what.

[quote="Saturn"]Teri's 27 min run (current TAS-record) is much better than I thought first, he only didn't use the pumping arm and some other minor tricks but overall his run is very optimized already.[/quote]
Well, judging from the boss battles and some other subtleties, I'd not dare to say his run is [i]that[/i] optimized. Since that time, many crucial rooms were proven to be passed faster not only because of arm pumping. Anyway, we need someone to finish that run first -- with any route. :)
(It's a pity sub-20 run is not possible, though.)