nomenclature [locked]

2005-12-13 05:13:16 pm

What about: Console Run and Emulator run? Not catchy but easily recognized.

MonsterERB

2005-12-13 05:14:26 pm

Well, I honestly don't like any of the options, for the reasons below. First, I assume the goal is to come up with a term for these runs that is (A) accurate, (B) acceptable to both "console" and "TAS" communities, and (C) understandable by the "mainstream" (meaning those not currently familiar with the terminology of high-level speed running/elite gaming) with as little extra explanation as possible. If you disagree with these above-stated points, then we just have a fundamental difference of opinion.
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Emu rape/emulator rape - well, it's accuracy is debatable. Perhaps "emulator abuse" would be better. However, while the console speedrunning community may get a vindictive charge out of this term, the TAS community obviously abhors the term, therefore it is not acceptable and will never be universally accepted. Additionally, I don't think it's very easily understood by the mainstream community. They will wonder why some poor flightless bird is being assaulted. Or, at the least, wonder if "emulator rape" involves some kind of peripheral device to be attached to one's computer to enable fuller enjoyment of naughty websites.
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Tool-assisted speedrun/tool-assisted run - Well, this is the best of the bunch, IMO. The TAS community accepts its use, and it's fairly accurate. One could quibble as to whether extreme slowdown and re-recording are tools (the TAS position) or cheats (the hardcore console runner's position). I'm somewhere in between. For instance, Ekarderif's MZM run is a good example of an emulated run that uses the emulator as a tool - no slowdown is used, and savestates are used sparingly. Many of the TAS runs, however, use extreme slowdown and multiple savestates per second - to me, those runs are not appealing to watch, as they show little skill involved. Hard work, yes. Time and effort, yes. Skill, no. That's just my opinion, and I do respect the time and work that TAS runners put into their runs. But, don't try to tell me that pulling off a run using 10x slowdown requires the same level of skill as a console run. It's a preference of mine, I suppose - when I see a speedrun, I'm not impressed by the speed or final clock time - I'm impressed by the skill of the runner and the difficulty of the moves that were pulled off.
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The problem is that it's impossible to tell which emulated runs use slowdown/savestates as occasional tools, and which abuse them to such an extent that little to no hand-eye coordination is required. The TAS runner will say that "it's a different beast. It's not about reflexes - it's about brainpower and planning and effort." Fair enough. Then it shouldn't be called a tool-assisted speedrun. Perhaps "computer-aided technical demonstration" would be more accurate. Wordy as hell, but more accurate. The "mainstream" knows what a computer is, but not necessarily what an emulator is. I think the TAS community would be far less opposed to this title than "emulator rape" for obvious reasons. The console community would likely appreciate the removal of the term "speed run" from the name as well. I think it's a good compromise.
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Cyborg run - Catchy name, cute idea, but I don't like it for this main reason. If you have to spend several sentences of text explaining just exactly WHAT a cyborg run is, then it's not a good name. In this case, brevity and novelty are less important than clarity.

Well, I honestly don't like any of the options, for the reasons below.  First, I assume the goal is to come up with a term for these runs that is (A) accurate, (B) acceptable to both "console" and "TAS" communities, and (C) understandable by the "mainstream" (meaning those not currently familiar with the terminology of high-level speed running/elite gaming) with as little extra explanation as possible.  If you disagree with these above-stated points, then we just have a fundamental difference of opinion.
...
[color=red]Emu rape/emulator rape[/color] - well, it's accuracy is debatable.  Perhaps "emulator abuse" would be better.  However, while the console speedrunning community may get a vindictive charge out of this term, the TAS community obviously abhors the term, therefore it is not acceptable and will never be universally accepted.  Additionally, I don't think it's very easily understood by the mainstream community.  They will wonder why some poor flightless bird is being assaulted.  Or, at the least, wonder if "emulator rape" involves some kind of peripheral device to be attached to one's computer to enable fuller enjoyment of naughty websites.
...
[color=orange]Tool-assisted speedrun/tool-assisted run[/color] - Well, this is the best of the bunch, IMO.  The TAS community accepts its use, and it's fairly accurate.  One could quibble as to whether extreme slowdown and re-recording are tools (the TAS position) or cheats (the hardcore console runner's position).  I'm somewhere in between.  For instance, Ekarderif's MZM run is a good example of an emulated run that uses the emulator as a [u]tool[/u] - no slowdown is used, and savestates are used sparingly.  Many of the TAS runs, however, use extreme slowdown and multiple savestates per second - to me, those runs are not appealing to watch, as they show little skill involved.  Hard work, yes.  Time and effort, yes.  Skill, no.  That's just my opinion, and I do respect the time and work that TAS runners put into their runs.  But, don't try to tell me that pulling off a run using 10x slowdown requires the same level of skill as a console run.  It's a preference of mine, I suppose - when I see a speedrun, I'm not impressed by the speed or final clock time - I'm impressed by the skill of the runner and the difficulty of the moves that were pulled off.
...
The problem is that it's impossible to tell which emulated runs use slowdown/savestates as occasional tools, and which abuse them to such an extent that little to no hand-eye coordination is required.  The TAS runner will say that "it's a different beast.  It's not about reflexes - it's about brainpower and planning and effort."  Fair enough.  Then it shouldn't be called a tool-assisted speedrun.  Perhaps "[b][u]computer-aided technical demonstration[/u][/b]" would be more accurate.  Wordy as hell, but more accurate.  The "mainstream" knows what a computer is, but not necessarily what an emulator is.  I think the TAS community would be far less opposed to this title than "emulator rape" for obvious reasons.  The console community would likely appreciate the removal of the term "speed run" from the name as well.  I think it's a good compromise.
...
[color=cyan]Cyborg run[/color] - Catchy name, cute idea, but I don't like it for this main reason.  If you have to spend several sentences of text explaining just exactly WHAT a cyborg run is, then it's not a good name.  In this case, brevity and novelty are less important than clarity.

2005-12-13 05:14:47 pm

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Ready and willing.

Emulator != savestateomatic.

Dragonfangs

2005-12-13 05:15:23 pm

Quote from StarmanHaxor:

What about: Console Run and Emulator run? Not catchy but easily recognized.

Emulator != Raped/Tool Assisted/Borged

EDIT: Great minds think alike...

2005-12-13 05:24:56 pm

in the name of justice!

There's not any concise set of words that will explain everything that is meant by the term...that IS why there's a "Why and How" page at Bisqwit's. Given the circumstances, I kind of have to hang my head and say "Tool-Assisted Speedrun" because...well at least it's a little more direct and descriptive. The other trick is having a name that isn't disparaging to anybody...which TAS probably fits a little better for than "cyborg" or "quarked" run.

2005-12-13 05:26:33 pm

Emulator run isnt descriptive enough?

nate

2005-12-13 05:28:21 pm

could very well be. stay tuned.

MonsterERB

2005-12-13 05:29:46 pm

No. I could go out and do a (non-Gamecube) Metroid game run on my computer, using an emulator and ROM, using no savestates and no slowdown, and achieve a WR time. Just because I did the run on an emulator doesn't mean it used the "tools" of slowdown and savestates. Plenty of people use emulators to play games without using these tactics (I myself play consoles only), and I would imagine they wouldn't want to be added in to a group of gamers with whom they have very little in common.

2005-12-13 05:30:37 pm

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Ready and willing.

I'm still not very fond of branding all emulated runs that way. I'm not sure why, especially since I'm not fond of emulators being used merely as substitutes for consoles, but...

2005-12-13 05:32:55 pm

in the name of justice!

I don't think that most people know what all emulators and their users are capable of, and if I can use Scarlet's example, if somebody sees "Reverse Order Boss Emulator Run 0:39" and "Reverse Order Boss Run 1:24" then quite honestly that sounds WORSE to me.

2005-12-13 05:33:40 pm

In my opinion, Monster, that is correct. That isnt tool-assisted, that is an Emulator run. :) I think some confusion may come from having "tool-assisted" as the label. if I did an Emulator run and used nothing but the emulator, that wouldnt be a tool assisted run, it would be an emulator run.

2005-12-13 05:34:49 pm

in the name of justice!

But we don't CARE about emulated runs here. If some idiot goes off and posts a video of himself emulating any% SM in :44, who cares?

Andrew Mills

2005-12-13 05:36:37 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from Spine Shark:

If some idiot goes off and posts a video of himself emulating any% SM in :44, who cares?

Plenty of people who enjoy TAS's or who may never visit M2k2 perhaps? :|

2005-12-13 05:37:31 pm

I was about to say something along the lines of that but Mills put it waaaaay better than I could have.

Actually, I missed the first topic, but I am just throwing my two cents in here. The poll says a label that is the least confusing.

MonsterERB

2005-12-13 05:39:56 pm

Example - (and correct me if I'm wrong) - Smokey's 0:36 any% WR run of Super was done on the emulator. Now, if "emulated run" means "done on emulator using slowdown and savestates", then would Smokey's run be classified as "World record console run (done on emulator)"??? Just seems like a TON of confusion could result, unless you were going to retroactively throw out all otherwise legitimately obtained WR's that were obtained on an emulator instead of a console. I don't think we want to go down that road...

arkarian

2005-12-13 05:42:01 pm

red chamber dream

I think this is really very simple:

"Cyborg Run" for any run/emonstration, done on an emulator or with other tools, that includes savestates, slowdown, etc.

"Emulator Run" for any run merely done on an emulator, using no savestates, slowdown, etc. whatsoever.

2005-12-13 05:44:33 pm

in the name of justice!

We are doing this because bisqwit's crowd shot down the intended neutral term "cyborg run." "Emulator run" is hella confusing, until I came here I had no idea what a game emulator could do, so how the fuck is random person xXspidermanXx going to know?

I'm TASFAN1982 and I say "watch this guy play Mario 64 in 15 minutes!" and nothing else, how the fuck are you going to know?

My point is, that what we're talking about here is what is affecting us. I shouldn't have said "idiot," maybe some guy likes this game and wants to share something with people, so he slaps together the above-average but not exceptional SM video, he doesn't affect us OR Bisqwit.

2005-12-13 05:44:42 pm

Why make it complicated Ark? Why not just have him/her say whether or not they used slowdown or savestates in their comments?

2005-12-13 05:46:19 pm

in the name of justice!

Because nobody reads comments besides me?

2005-12-13 05:46:25 pm

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Ready and willing.

Quote from Spine Shark:

"Emulator run" is hella confusing, until I came here I had no idea what a game emulator could do, so how the flickerbat is random person xXspidermanXx going to know?

nate

2005-12-13 05:47:46 pm

smokey's 0:36 is not emulated. there aren't any records done on emulators. emulation = illegal/fringe, therefore seems to be a good label for them. still, i wonder if anything will really tell people in one word to disregard what they are about to see.