Glitch Topic

2010-05-08 07:15:49 pm

professional chin scratcher

Yea and so do I. But sometimes when hotarubi does it it looks like he's doing it for a reason sometimes. O well I guess not. I also think that NTSC is easier to induce slowdown on compared to PAL just from doing minor things like lay a power bomb and then run off and jump while it's exploding.

Kejardon

2010-05-08 08:14:49 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

NTSC operates at 60 FPS while PAL operates at 50 FPS. That means PAL has ~20% more time to handle everything that happens in a single frame. So yes, it's significantly easier to cause lag on NTSC than PAL.

Kejardon

2010-05-18 05:32:43 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Have fun trying to figure this out unless you've already heard how (most credit for this discovery goes to hero of the day). I'll tell more about it later, still poking around at it to see how it works and stuff.

072

2010-05-18 05:54:47 pm

coral to complement blue

I saw Hero's smv over at tasvideos... is this the same technique?

Kejardon

2010-05-18 05:57:36 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Yeah, I'm trying to come up with a version that works against enemies too.

Kejardon

2010-05-18 07:42:47 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Bug summary:
X-ray has specific poses assigned to it, and the first thing it does is transition Samus into one of these poses. This is actually the only thing keeping Samus from (sort of) running around while x-ray scoping. However, if a higher-priority pose transition takes place at the same frame, this will be skipped leaving Samus in a normal gameplay pose.
This normally is impossible however. The only higher priority pose transition is transitions due to naturally changing poses (turning around, demorphing, etc.). These poses don't allow the x-ray scope though, and thus cannot interrupt it.
Hero found a bizarre exception that resides in the knockback code from getting hurt - namely, there is a persistency-transition that occurs when Samus is pushed back, forcing Samus to remain in the pose she's currently in (although I can see no good reason for this transition - it looks like it's just mimicking the release-Samus-from-kickback-pose code, but since Samus is already out of kickback just uses Samus's current pose). It occurs a specific frame after getting hurt (5 frames normally, 10 frames from spikes), and in order for it to trigger Samus must not be in the hurt pose, but still gotten knocked back. If the x-ray scope attempts to transition to an x-ray scope pose this frame, it will fail to do so.
Hero of the day made a .smv of this on tasvideos as was mentioned, you can see him using this glitch to run in place and charge a blue suit, by landing on spikes, demorphing, then running with x-ray scope on. Samus's motion routines don't run during this code, so the normal methods of motion don't work. Special case motion can still occur though. (Blue suit requires normal motion to initiate though. The fact he can get blue suit at all is a completely separate glitch from motion in x-ray scope, although it has the same trigger of a frame-perfect interruption due to knockback. Basically, Hero retained his speed counter through the landing)
It is at least technically possible to use other sources of damage than spikes, it's just that spikes give you 10 frames till the persistency transition occurs, while enemies give you only 5. You have to start of the x-ray scope the frame before the persistency transition. That's not enough time to demorph though, so it seems you have to do something like get hurt, damage boost, land, and x-ray scope in the span of 4 frames. And if you want to be able to get blue suit you'll have to also be running before you start the x-ray scope.

Reeve

Edit history:

Reeve: 2010-05-18 08:21:42 pm

Reeve: 2010-05-18 08:20:02 pm

Reeve: 2010-05-18 08:19:08 pm

2010-05-18 08:18:10 pm

So if there is enough space to run at least a little bit and an enemy to inflict damage in you, it's possible to charge the Shinespark if you use the X-raySpark? So we can wait Lots of Shinesparks in the next runs using this Glitch? If so, i think we'll have more than minutes of improvement in the next runs that uses Speedbooster.

Kejardon

2010-05-18 09:02:30 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

No, I think there's too much to try to pull off in the span of 4 frames to actually do this off with an enemy.

Maur

2010-06-20 05:15:30 am

I'd like to ask how to do a couple glitches. One, how do you get stuck in a door? And two, how do you do the two-block-high-jump-through-ceiling glitch? I can get it extremely rarely by simply trying to jump as soon as I wedge myself into the space, which is a pretty good indicator that I'm doing something wrong, since that's not nearly frequent enough to consider using it in a speedrun.

Kejardon

2010-06-20 05:10:52 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

The most straightforward way of getting stuck in a door is to just do a spinjump very close to the other side of the door, as though you're going to walljump off of it. Just doing this will trigger the door transition (the walljump check essentially causes Samus to touch the blocks behind her) but allow you to be further left and in a better position to reach the door when the next room loads.

Jumping through ceilings is done by getting wedged into the space in a specific way. First off you'll probably want to jump in while aiming down, this reduces your hitbox as much as possible thus making it easier to get in the right position. Then when you're at the spot you want to jump through, tap forward. This enlarges Samus's hitbox and the game does some repositioning to place Samus as she hits a ceiling and a floor at the same time. If you do it right, Samus ends up slightly inside of the ground. From there you can just jump up through the ceiling.
If you land while aiming down it usually results in Samus standing with her head in the ground. While the game will let you jump from this position, you actually can't jump through the ceiling from there - you need to jump again, and tap down then forward.

The most straightforward way of getting stuck in a door is to just do a spinjump very close to the other side of the door, as though you're going to walljump off of it. Just doing this will trigger the door transition (the walljump check essentially causes Samus to touch the blocks behind her) but allow you to be further left and in a better position to reach the door when the next room loads.

Jumping through ceilings is done by getting wedged into the space in a specific way. First off you'll probably want to jump in while aiming down, this reduces your hitbox as much as possible thus making it easier to get in the right position. Then when you're at the spot you want to jump through, tap forward. This enlarges Samus's hitbox and the game does some repositioning to place Samus as she hits a ceiling and a floor at the same time. If you do it right, Samus ends up slightly inside of the ground. From there you can just jump up through the ceiling.
If you land while aiming down it usually results in Samus standing with her head in the ground. While the game will let you jump from this position, you actually can't jump through the ceiling from there - you need to jump again, and tap down then forward.

Quietus

2010-06-21 06:24:37 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

For the ceiling thing, the above is technically correct, but in play it often feels different. When I'm doing that trick, it feels more like I run / jump toward the gap, keep hold of forward and jump, and then just as I'm about to hit the 'wedge' point, I hold down as well (so I'm holding diagonally forward and down).

P.JMan

2010-06-22 07:44:27 am

I like Big Butts and I can not lie

Would you happen to remember the range of the distance from the ceiling Samus needs to be when doing the jump, and when it requires x-ray? I seem to recall it being posted on this board, but I'm unable to find it

Kejardon

2010-06-22 11:57:21 am

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Nope. I remember testing that with a frozen enemy in the room before Shaktool I think.

Behemoth

2010-06-24 12:36:15 pm

For the ceiling glitch I always spin jumped in and as I'm about to be wedged in I hold up and then jump. So samus jumps while looking up. It always works in the wrecked ship main shaft area.

Behemoth

2010-06-30 03:14:08 pm

I need to know what the the quickest way to kill mother brain is in console conditions for a 100% run. forgetting real time completely as I'm only concerned with being quickest in in game time. Is it best to use murder beam right at the start, or at the start of the second stage ?

In hotarubi's 32 minutes run he uses murder beam at the begining of the second stage by laying three murder beams together in appropriate places to cover the area that mother brain moves in stage 2.. Unlike stage 1 where you can just shoot 1 murder beam on her head while it's sitting there and this sticks to her ,taking damage for duration of the whole fight. I used to do hotarubi's stage 2 method ages ago before I realised I could just shoot one into her head at the start of the fight for simplicity sake. It's surely easy but now I'm debating whether it's the fastest way. Either stage 1 or stage 2 murder beam methods make mother brain die in about the same amount of time at the end

What's interesting is that I've heard that just shooting charged ice-wave-plasma shots for the first stage is quicker than murder beam. Baring in mind I'm playing on PAL where it takes longer to charge the beam.

I'm also aware of the different method of disabling varia before you get hit by the light beam (making sure you have 7 tanks left, I think) and then throughout stage 2 you can shoot charged shots at mother brain with the metroid attached to you. Which also brings mother brain nearly dead by the end. Like stage 1 and 2 murder beam methods.

It's all pretty confusing working what could be fastest for ingame time on this fight but I'd just love to know a definitive awnser one day to this question that has been bugging me for quite some time.

I need to know what the the quickest way to kill mother brain is in console conditions for a 100% run. forgetting real time completely as I'm only concerned with being quickest in in game time. Is it best to use murder beam right at the start, or at the start of the second stage ?

In hotarubi's 32 minutes run he uses murder beam at the begining of the second stage by laying three murder beams together in appropriate places to cover the area that mother brain moves in stage 2.. Unlike stage 1 where you can just shoot 1 murder beam on her head while it's sitting there and this sticks to her ,taking damage for duration of the whole fight. I used to do hotarubi's stage 2 method ages ago before I realised I could just shoot one into her head at the start of the fight for simplicity sake. It's surely easy but now I'm debating whether it's the fastest way. Either stage 1 or stage 2 murder beam methods make mother brain die in about the same amount of time at the end

What's interesting is that I've heard that just shooting charged ice-wave-plasma shots for the first stage is quicker than murder beam. Baring in mind I'm playing on PAL where it takes longer to charge the beam.

I'm also aware of the different method of disabling varia before you get hit by the light beam (making sure you have 7 tanks left, I think) and then throughout stage 2 you can shoot charged shots at mother brain with the metroid attached to you. Which also brings mother brain nearly dead by the end. Like stage 1 and 2 murder beam methods.

It's all pretty confusing working what could be fastest for ingame time on this fight but I'd just love to know a definitive awnser one day to this question that has been bugging me for quite some time.

072

2010-06-30 04:05:42 pm

coral to complement blue

The force-stand glitch is the fastest for NTSC, but I'm not sure about PAL, since shots take longer to charge and you wouldn't be able to get as many in. Though the damage Murder Beam does might also be affected at 50fps. The only way to know is to test which method leaves MB with the least amount of health left (i.e. the fewest amount of hyper beam shots left to kill her.)

Behemoth

Edit history:

Behemoth: 2010-06-30 06:41:20 pm

Behemoth: 2010-06-30 06:38:31 pm

Behemoth: 2010-06-30 06:24:33 pm

Behemoth: 2010-06-30 06:12:32 pm

Behemoth: 2010-06-30 05:56:03 pm

Behemoth: 2010-06-30 04:21:57 pm

2010-06-30 04:21:03 pm

I think all three methods leave mother brain with near identical amount of health left at the end. ie a simlilar amount of shots left to do with the hyper beam.

Yea that's where the confusion lies you see because charge beam is definately slower on PAL but murder beam damage speed might be the same as NTSC. So a murder beam death might be fastest option on PAL.

If the murder beam IS slower at inflicting damage to compensate for 50fps, that would make all methods equivelent to NTSC, which would also mean stand up glitch would also be the fastest way for PAL too. I guess now I need to find out if murder beam is slower on PAL. Then the problem is solved.

[edit] just tested the stand Up glitch and for some reason I sometimes crash the game by the time I'm given the hyper beam. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I remember seeing hotarubi shooting charged shots from down there while the screen goes black and then you automatically get hyper beam. But when I do it the game has weird graphical glitches and crashes. Sometimes it recovers after a few seconds. Generally but I think this gltich is too risky.

When it has recovered and I'm able to shoot mother brain to death she takes far more hyper beam shots than when I use murder beam before hand.

I have a feeling the murder beam isn't slowed down to compenstae for 50fps. But it could be that enemies and bosses have a larger gap to be hit on PAL which is what makes battles longer regardless. I've noticed on NTSC speed runs that torizo can be shot more frequently. So the fact that beams and missiles and possibly the murder beam is slowed down makes no difference because enemies and bosses can only be hit on those frames when they can anyway.

Another thing I found out by testing is that because it's a 100% speed run and therefore have the full 14 enegy tanks, it obviously takes longer for the metroid to recover me fully which in turn does more damage on mother brain via the murder beam. And which case mother brain is almost dead by the time I get hyper beam when stage 3 starts. Murder beam on round 2 was left with an identical amount of health. Stand up glitch left mother brain with lots of shots left. This could be because I missed quite few shots when the metroid was attached to me, as opposed to just having a slower charge beam on PAL.

So what I've learned from this is that the constant damage from the murder beam is probably the best option here simply because it eliminates mistakes like missing shots on mother brain. I think the stand up glitch is more of a trick designed for real time speed runs as it eliminates slowdown.

I think all three methods leave mother brain with near identical amount of health left at the end. ie a simlilar amount of shots left to do with the hyper beam.

Yea that's where the confusion lies you see because charge beam is definately slower on PAL but murder beam damage speed might be the same as NTSC. So a murder beam death might be fastest option on PAL.

If the murder beam IS slower at inflicting damage to compensate for 50fps, that would make all methods equivelent to NTSC, which would also mean stand up glitch would also be the fastest way for PAL too. I guess now I need to find out if murder beam is slower on PAL. Then the problem is solved.

[edit] just tested the stand Up glitch and for some reason I sometimes crash the game by the time I'm given the hyper beam. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I remember seeing hotarubi shooting charged shots from down there while the screen goes black and then you automatically get hyper beam. But when I do it the game has weird graphical glitches and crashes. Sometimes it recovers after a few seconds. Generally but I think this gltich is too risky.

When it has recovered and I'm able to shoot mother brain to death she takes far more hyper beam shots than when I use murder beam before hand.

I have a feeling the murder beam isn't slowed down to compenstae for 50fps. But it could be that enemies and bosses have a larger gap to be hit on PAL which is what makes battles longer regardless. I've noticed on NTSC speed runs that torizo can be shot more frequently. So the fact that beams and missiles and possibly the murder beam is slowed down makes no difference because enemies and bosses can only be hit on those frames when they can anyway.

Another thing I found out by testing is that because it's a 100% speed run and therefore have the full 14 enegy tanks, it obviously takes longer for the metroid to recover me fully which in turn does more damage on mother brain via the murder beam. And which case mother brain is almost dead by the time I get hyper beam when stage 3 starts. Murder beam on round 2 was left with an identical amount of health. Stand up glitch left mother brain with lots of shots left. This could be because I missed quite few shots when the metroid was attached to me, as opposed to just having a slower charge beam on PAL.

So what I've learned from this is that the constant damage from the murder beam is probably the best option here simply because it eliminates mistakes like missing shots on mother brain. I think the stand up glitch is more of a trick designed for real time speed runs as it eliminates slowdown.

Kejardon

2010-06-30 06:46:15 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote from Behemoth:

just tested the stand Up glitch and for some reason I sometimes crash the game by the time I'm given the hyper beam. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I remember seeing hotarubi shooting charged shots from down there while the screen goes black and then you automatically get hyper beam. But when I do it the game has weird graphical glitches and crashes. Sometimes it recovers after a few seconds. Generally but I think this gltich is too risky.

It depends on what pose Samus is in at the time. There are multiple animation frames for each pose, for the kneeling pose there are a lot of extra animation frames in separate loops. This way when Samus is supposed to stand up, all the game has to do is set Samus to a specific animation frame, and it probably just assumes Samus is already in the kneeling pose. But other poses generally don't have as many animation frames, and so when its set to a high animation frame it overflows and reads unrelated data for various stuff.
Long story short, you just have to be in a good pose whenever Samus would be set to a specific animation frame. Spinjumping's always worked well for me. Morph ball works also but you get temporarily stuck and have to bomb jump to be able to move again.

[quote="Behemoth"]just tested the stand Up glitch and for some reason I sometimes crash the game by the time I'm given the hyper beam. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I remember seeing hotarubi shooting charged shots from down there while the screen goes black and then you automatically get hyper beam. But when I do it the game has weird graphical glitches and crashes. Sometimes it recovers after a few seconds. Generally but I think this gltich is too risky.[/quote]
It depends on what pose Samus is in at the time. There are multiple animation frames for each pose, for the kneeling pose there are a lot of extra animation frames in separate loops. This way when Samus is supposed to stand up, all the game has to do is set Samus to a specific animation frame, and it probably just assumes Samus is already in the kneeling pose. But other poses generally don't have as many animation frames, and so when its set to a high animation frame it overflows and reads unrelated data for various stuff.
Long story short, you just have to be in a good pose whenever Samus would be set to a specific animation frame. Spinjumping's always worked well for me. Morph ball works also but you get temporarily stuck and have to bomb jump to be able to move again.

Behemoth

2010-06-30 06:59:16 pm

Ok I'll test that out. Funny thing was once, samus got set to kneeling unintentionally and was also sliding across the floor into mother brain and there was nothing I could do about it lol.

I just think though that the stand up glitch has too many risk factors associated with it to be really beneficial on a console speed run. Sometimes I miss time my charge beam shots and end up shooting regular shots doing no damage at all. other times I smack my head on mother brains head which sends me back and have to get into postion again for the jumping shots. But by the end of it I still seem to have to finish her off with more hyper beam shots than when I use murder beam before hand. Like I say, because the the murder beam has constant damage with no gaps. ie it hits on frame, it gets the job done better, even though murder beam hits are weaker than charged ice-wave-plasma. It eliminates moments of carelessness in your shooting and too big gaps between charged shots.

Behemoth

2010-06-30 09:47:48 pm

I just tested the amount of frames mother brain takes to be inflicted each time by the murder beam. TAS videos/super metroid tricks states that it's 16 frames for each 200 damage. For some reason I count 17 (but I was going by the flashes, maybe the infliction is 1 frame before the flash ?, but that still wouldn't make it 16 wtf ?). When I used frame advance she flashes once and then flashes 5 more times on every other frame and then there's 7 more frames till the next flash proper, which is the next damage infliction occuring I'm assuming, on frame 16. Although the flash is on frame 17 as I stated.

Well anyway I did the same on PAL and it seems I was wrong about the damage infliction frame gap possibly being different. It's actually exactly the same amount of frames. So comparatively NTSC and PAL would have identical battle lengths by frames but not real time because there's less frames in a second on PAL. So 50fps compared to 60fps makes the PAL mother brain battle 1/6th slower in real time ?. I guess they knew that PAL would be slower nearly everywhere throughout the game in real time so they adjusted the in game clock accordingly.

By all means correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I've only just decided to try and understand all of this stuff :).

I just tested the amount of frames mother brain takes to be inflicted each time by the murder beam. TAS videos/super metroid tricks states that it's 16 frames for each 200 damage. For some reason I count 17 (but I was going by the flashes, maybe the infliction is 1 frame before the flash ?, but that still wouldn't make it 16 wtf ?). When I used frame advance she flashes once and then flashes 5 more times on every other frame and then there's 7 more frames till the next flash proper, which is the next damage infliction occuring I'm assuming, on frame 16. Although the flash is on frame 17 as I stated.

Well anyway I did the same on PAL and it seems I was wrong about the damage infliction frame gap possibly being different. It's actually exactly the same amount of frames. So comparatively NTSC and PAL would have identical battle lengths by frames but not real time because there's less frames in a second on PAL. So 50fps compared to 60fps makes the PAL mother brain battle 1/6th slower in real time ?. I guess they knew that PAL would be slower nearly everywhere throughout the game in real time so they adjusted the in game clock accordingly.

By all means correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I've only just decided to try and understand all of this stuff :).

Kejardon

2010-06-30 11:06:34 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Nope.
PAL SM's clock was sped up actually to match 50 fps, so the same real time (ignoring lag) will be reported the same on both. Only some parts of the game were accordingly sped up (e.g. Samus's speeds). Many parts of the game were not accordingly sped up (pretty much all block stuff, enemy invincibility, much more). Thus, many parts of the game take more real time. Pretty much nothing in PAL takes less real time - the only exception is that there will be less lag.

Behemoth

2010-07-01 11:19:42 am

I see, so because only some things were not sped up accordingly, these are the things that make an any% run for example only roughly 2 1/2 minutes slower in game time to NTSC. If the the whole game was truly 1/6th slower then that difference would be bigger. So something like a perfectly good any% run on NTSC that is 30:00, and an identical PAL run would therefore be 35:00. 1/6th slower than 30 = 35.

Likewise a 100% run wherebye there is proven to be roughly 5 minutes difference between NTSC and PAL. If the game had been totally 1/6th slower, then an Hotarubi 50:00 run equivelent on PAL would be something like 58:00. Which of course is not the case as I myself got 54:00 on PAL.

Samus's boyfriend

2010-07-02 06:44:14 pm

METROID. IS. AWESOME!

I don't know if this has already been said but if it has then don't bug me about it. I have successfully gotten the infared-vision thingy (I don't know what it's called.) that lets you see through walls without the space-jump or the hook-shot lazer thingy (I don't know what this is called either.). I don't have proof but If I could post videos on youtube then I could prove it.

Kharay1977

2010-07-02 06:48:44 pm

Quote from Samus's boyfriend:

I don't know if this has already been said but if it has then don't bug me about it. I have successfully gotten the infared-vision thingy (I don't know what it's called.) that lets you see through walls without the space-jump or the hook-shot lazer thingy (I don't know what this is called either.). I don't have proof but If I could post videos on youtube then I could prove it.

Something like this:

Samus's boyfriend

2010-07-05 11:29:29 am

METROID. IS. AWESOME!

Um, I got the X-Ray scope using the ice-beam to freeze the enemies and jump on top of them. I didn't use the bomb-jump at all because I sucked at it. This was way more harder for me then that guy because I couldn't use the bomb-jump and I didn't get hit by the enemies, making it do less damage then the spikes.