A Question on Prime 2's Progression

2018-09-23 03:06:22 am

Hello everyone!

I'm a new forum member that has recently decided to put together a video series for YouTube. The aim of these videos is to break Prime 2 down in all its elements, and explain why they do or don't work. To that end, I've been playing the game several times over to 100% completion, watching reviews and let's plays on YouTube, and otherwise researching the game online.

One complaint I've heard time and time again is in regards to the game's intended path of progression. People feel that the game has way too much backtracking. This is a complaint I don't understand. Outside of two instances where the game pulls the player out of an area to search for an upgrade in a previous one, the player needs to travel through the Temple Grounds once after completing each of the lesser temples, there's a small bit of backtracking immediately after meeting U-Mos to get to the Agon Wastes, and the player must revisit each area one final time for the Sky Temple keys. This makes for seven instances of backtracking.

Obviously, I haven't mentioned any backtracking within areas between Samus's activating the hologram of a dead temple sentinel, and returning the Light of Aether to said temples. This is because I question whether this counts as backtracking when the areas are (mostly) self-contained segments of the game. They're like Zelda dungeons with a much better connection to the world as a whole. The backtracking within these segments is negligible, especially in strings of events such as from entering the Torvus Bog to acquiring the Boost Ball.

The worst instance outside of the Sky Temple keys is the Power Bomb. This has you cross the entire map for a single suit expansion. But even though there's an absolute absurd amount of walking up front, there's a short cut the player can take immediately after collecting the Power Bomb which carries the player right back to where they need to be.

I fail to understand this complaint about a metroidvania which basically is about backtracking to notable areas once you've learned how to deal with them. Even more so since Prime 2's backtracking tends to be so negligible. So my question is what am I missing here? Does the dark World with its similar shape and design make traversing what essentially are new areas/rooms feel like backtracking? Should all the backtracking within the temples count no matter how negligible?

I want to understand this so my eventual review, with all its criticisms, will be as accurate as possible.

Thread title:

Hello everyone!

I'm a new forum member that has recently decided to put together a video series for YouTube. The aim of these videos is to break Prime 2 down in all its elements, and explain why they do or don't work. To that end, I've been playing the game several times over to 100% completion, watching reviews and let's plays on YouTube, and otherwise researching the game online.

One complaint I've heard time and time again is in regards to the game's intended path of progression. People feel that the game has way too much backtracking. This is a complaint I don't understand. Outside of two instances where the game pulls the player out of an area to search for an upgrade in a previous one, the player needs to travel through the Temple Grounds once after completing each of the lesser temples, there's a small bit of backtracking immediately after meeting U-Mos to get to the Agon Wastes, and the player must revisit each area one final time for the Sky Temple keys. This makes for seven instances of backtracking.

Obviously, I haven't mentioned any backtracking within areas between Samus's activating the hologram of a dead temple sentinel, and returning the Light of Aether to said temples. This is because I question whether this counts as backtracking when the areas are (mostly) self-contained segments of the game. They're like Zelda dungeons  with a much better connection to the world as a whole. The backtracking within these segments is negligible, especially in strings of events such as from entering the Torvus Bog to acquiring the Boost Ball.

The worst instance outside of the Sky Temple keys is the Power Bomb. This has you cross the entire map for a single suit expansion. But even though there's an absolute absurd amount of walking up front, there's a short cut the player can take immediately after collecting the Power Bomb which carries the player right back to where they need to be.

I fail to understand this complaint about a metroidvania which basically is about backtracking to notable areas once you've learned how to deal with them. Even more so since Prime 2's backtracking tends to be so negligible. So my question is what am I missing here? Does the dark World with its similar shape and design make traversing what essentially are new areas/rooms feel like backtracking? Should all the backtracking within the temples count no matter how negligible?

I want to understand this so my eventual review, with all its criticisms, will be as accurate as possible.

tomatobob

2018-09-23 06:51:42 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Backtracking in Echoes mostly just feels bad the Dark Wold adds loading screens that make things tedious and often leave you going through the same area twice but with a color shift and a gimmick that slows you down when you don't know where you're going and also the areas you're exploring are largely trash. Agon is boring, Torvus is annoying, Sanctuary is a chore.

Finding the dead sentinels and returning the light are busy work, even if you aren't counting those tasks as backtracking they're not interesting. It might have been ok if the story was good and worth paying attention to, but it isn't. The greatest flaw of Echoes is that it's just kind of boring in general.

But, like, if that doesn't bother you that's ok. If it works for you you're not wrong and those of us who don't like it aren't wrong. It's 100% subjective. The Sky Temple Keys were inexcusable though, blatant padding.

arkarian

Edit history:

arkarian: 2018-09-23 01:03:44 pm

2018-09-23 01:01:47 pm

red chamber dream

fwiw i have a lot of problems with echoes, but backtracking isn't really one of them. i never mind backtracking as long as it's fun

echoes is bad because it's ugly and tedious

Aruki

2018-09-24 12:42:35 pm

The problem people have with it isn't that there is backtracking, it's that the backtracking is not executed very well. Prime 1 for instance constantly moves the player from area to area. You will stop by an area and find a few new items, and then you'll have to return to an earlier location to make use of that new ability to access new parts of the map, making use of new routes along the way. Echoes isn't structured like that. You start in one area and you stay there until you "clear" the area, and then you move on to the next one. This gameplay structure is established in Agon Wastes, where you do not leave Agon at all from the moment you arrive until you get the Dark Suit. So when you play Torvus and Sanctuary, there are two points where out of nowhere, you suddenly have to travel back across the entire map to go somewhere you've been before just to pick up one item, then go all the way back? It feels jarring. It's poorly paced and it doesn't fit in with the way the rest of the game is structured. It doesn't feel like a natural part of the game, it feels like something that was jammed in to meet a Metroid backtracking quota.

Zackonark

2018-09-24 03:32:40 pm

At the point of Echoes being boring. Narratively, the world looking grayed out and dead is due to the planet’s life energy having been removed. The environments were made to reflect this, to reenforce the fact that Aether is dying. It was described to have been a paradise before the Leviathan struck the planet, and if the game had been set in that time I wager the environments would’ve been a lot more vibrant and eye-catching. The story would’ve been very different tho.

I do agree that returning the Light of Aether could’ve been done better. They could’ve allowed us to return it all at once or in different locations. The energy controllers were built as a network after all.

I also agree that the seeker missile and power bomb runs are jarring. They pulled the same thing in Prime 3 and all it ever serves to do is stop all the momentum the player has built up until these points. These are only ever confusing.

DJGrenola

Edit history:

DJGrenola: 2018-09-24 06:55:02 pm

2018-09-24 06:52:56 pm

I'd agree that the backtracking isn't the problem. there are basically two major gameplay issues with prime 2.

firstly, the dark world energy drain before light suit discourages you from doing much in the way of meaningful exploration while in the dark world. the novice player's rewards for investigation in this game are either a) standing around in a safe zone for sixty seconds because they almost ran out of energy or b) death by dark world exposure. it's not a good look for a series that's known for its explorative aspect.

secondly, trying to plan routes through the map is tedious and annoying because you have to consider two parallel maps at once, and there is a mandatory ten-second loading cutscene each time you take a portal.

it didn't help that they made the boost ball so much less potent than prime 1's, so getting around also felt much slower in general.

Zackonark

Edit history:

Zackonark: 2018-09-24 10:40:02 pm

Zackonark: 2018-09-24 10:36:32 pm

2018-09-24 10:34:16 pm

So the dark world is bad because it challenges your ability to explore?

Wouldn’t the player running low on health be entirely their own fault in this case? The player has a map that gives an extremely simplified layout of the rooms they’ve been in, a scan visor that explains all objects of question, safe zones the player can hang out in to heal 1 hp per second, and numerous cutscenes that often times show the way forward. Wouldn’t the player running low on health mean the player is playing too recklessly?

Wouldn’t a series based almost entirely around testing the player’s ability to explore want to challenge the player’s ability to explore?

This all especially so when health pick ups are very generous in this game. If the player is low on health, more often than not the game will give the player red, blue, and even yellow energy drops. Same goes for ammo, including beam ammo. If the player is running low on anything, the game will generously supply the player with what they need. And not just for killing enemies, but also from the uncountable number of plant life and storage crates that litter most/every room in the game. Couple this with the fact that the beam weapons make enemy encounters a joke in either dimension and it sounds to me like people are doing something wrong and blaming the game for it.

Might I also mention that the dark suit insulates Samus from 80% of dark world energy drain? This puts the effect at even with the rate the safe zones heal the player. And the player gets the dark suit for completing the first temple of the game. This makes the dark world energy drain pretty much negligible for the majority of the game

So the dark world is bad because it challenges your ability to explore?

Wouldn’t the player running low on health be entirely their own fault in this case? The player has a map that gives an extremely simplified layout of the rooms they’ve been in, a scan visor that explains all objects of question, safe zones the player can hang out in to heal 1 hp per second, and numerous cutscenes that often times show the way forward. Wouldn’t the player running low on health mean the player is playing too recklessly?

Wouldn’t a series based almost entirely around testing the player’s ability to explore want to challenge the player’s ability to explore?

This all especially so when health pick ups are very generous in this game. If the player is low on health, more often than not the game will give the player red, blue, and even yellow energy drops. Same goes for ammo, including beam ammo. If the player is running low on anything, the game will generously supply the player with what they need. And not just for killing enemies, but also from the uncountable number of plant life and storage crates that litter most/every room in the game. Couple this with the fact that the beam weapons make enemy encounters a joke in either dimension and it sounds to me like people are doing something wrong and blaming the game for it.

Might I also mention that the dark suit insulates Samus from 80% of dark world energy drain? This puts the effect at even with the rate the safe zones heal the player. And the player gets the dark suit for completing the first temple of the game. This makes the dark world energy drain pretty much negligible for the majority of the game

tomatobob

2018-09-25 03:12:30 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

The pick ups are not that generous for the first time player. From experience I can say exhausting those containers while making no real headway is very easy when you're not sure what you're looking for or doing. Especially pre-Dark Suit which is plenty of game for the first time player who is looking for hidden things. And the light bubble heath regen is way too slow given how fast the drain is early. It's better once you get the Dark Suit, but that should have been the default and the Dark Suit should have just eliminated it. The Varia Suit extremely discourages exploration and gives the player a horrible first impression of Dark Wold mechanics. Running from bubble to bubble and standing around for a bit in each to recover is not fun. I do not want to explore this world if that's what I'm going to be doing, and there's plenty of standing around even with Dark Suit on a first playthrough. There's a reason good Metroid games don't ask you to do hell runs without Varia, a heated room is a "Turn back" sign. "Get the item that lets you explore this area and come back" is a more satisfying progression than "Run through The Pain Zone for a while until you get the thing that makes it annoying instead of miserable." Never mind having to do a Boss fight with full Dark World damage which is just nonsense. Boost Guardian was a notorious wall and you have the Dark Suit for that. If the boss has to dump health pick ups on the player all the time to be workable you've made a bad boss. Instead of trying things and looking around you're keeping an eye on you health bar and looking for containers that will shorten the time you spend standing around after working out how to get where you want to be. You don't invite exploration by putting the player on a death clock.

Quote from Zackonark:

Couple this with the fact that the beam weapons make enemy encounters a joke in either dimension and it sounds to me like people are doing something wrong and blaming the game for it.

If people are playing the game wrong it's because the game does a horrible job introducing its mechanics and leading the player to engage with them. The Dark World is introduced by simple exposure to it shredding you, your beams have limited ammo which leads the player to think they're special and should be saved until they are needed, like missiles, and it's not always clear when a beam will be effective, see: Chykka and iirc one or all of the Dark Samus fights being weaker to Dark. On top of that you just don't need the Dark Beam early on. Nothing is that strong and the Power Beam is plenty powerful for anything you meet for... most of the game, really. The scariest enemies you meet early are any given Ing or Ing possessed enemy, which the Dark beam doesn't hurt. So I found myself holding on to it until I needed it and it just didn't come up. And since the primary means of getting Dark Ammo is using the Light Beam, you don't get an easy way to refill until you get that with doesn't help get the player into the habit of using their new weapon. Light Beam had uses so I was just saving that up for bosses since they tended to be weak to it and that whole get opposite ammo for the beam you're using mechanic was too dumb for me to want to deal with. Switching to the Dark Beam in the place where it largely, again: Chyyka, doesn't work is dumb just give me Light Ammo. Early impressions discourage the player at so many turns in Echoes.

Echoes instills bad habits in the player and does not encourage or reward correction. You use the beams when they're needed but they are rarely needed and run out of ammo quickly when you do. You find Seeker Missiles, a brand new toy for Echoes, and they are useless. The Annihilator Beam, your big end game reward like the Plasma Beam was, is an ammo sink that doesn't help you. The Light Suit fixes the problem that the Dark Suit should have far too late to change anyone's a opinion on the Dark World.

It's bad design.
It's the game's fault people don't use the other beams. It's the game's fault people don't want to engage with the Dark World.

You compared the various zones of Aether to Zelda dungeons, but they fall into the bad kind of Zelda dungeon, the kind that's just sort of there and reward you with an item you'll use in that dungeon and maybe once or twice elsewhere. Every upgrade in Echoes is the Dominion Rod from Twilight Princess. Or Dual Claw Shots. Or The Spinner. Or the Ball and Chain._{Boy was that game a series of disappointments.} You pick them up and think "Ooh cool I can't wait to mess around with this!" And then all it's good for is maybe beating the boss and getting an extra missile tank.

Basically Echoes is the Metroid equivalent of Twilight Princess. And now I've made myself sad. I was so excited for both of them. Confused

Quote from Zackonark:

At the point of Echoes being boring. Narratively, the world looking grayed out and dead is due to the planet’s life energy having been removed. The environments were made to reflect this, to reenforce the fact that Aether is dying. It was described to have been a paradise before the Leviathan struck the planet, and if the game had been set in that time I wager the environments would’ve been a lot more vibrant and eye-catching. The story would’ve been very different tho.

Games have before and after Echoes done Dead World in a way that is visually interesting. Chozo Ruins in Prime was even a better example of a dead, barren environment. Infested with bugs, old withered plant life the water was actual poison, it was not a good place to be, but also a great place to be. And largely brown. It's not about colors, it's about the shape of it, what's in it, and what's not. There's nothing to the Temple Grounds or Agon. They're very generic They could be slipped into so many games and not look too out of place. Sanctuary just a green place full of holes. I've been on record on this forum as saying the game would be better if it was all Dark World and that's in part due to those versions of Aether are less bland. I also had a long dumb post here about Torvus being the best zone because there's at least stuff to look at even though playing it sucks, whereas the other places suck to play while being boring to look at. We know Retro could do good level design, Prime exists. Corruption had some good stuff too. Just Echoes doesn't, maybe it had to be generic because of the Light/Dark mechanic. I don't know. But if that's the case that mechanic should have been scrapped.

The pick ups are not that generous for the first time player. From experience I can say exhausting those containers while making no real headway is very easy when you're not sure what you're looking for or doing. Especially pre-Dark Suit which is plenty of game for the first time player who is looking for hidden things. And the light bubble heath regen is way too slow given how fast the drain is early. It's better once you get the Dark Suit, but that should have been the default and the Dark Suit should have just eliminated it. The Varia Suit extremely discourages exploration and gives the player a horrible first impression of Dark Wold mechanics. Running from bubble to bubble and standing around for a bit in each to recover is not fun. I do not want to explore this world if that's what I'm going to be doing, and there's plenty of standing around even with Dark Suit on a first playthrough. There's a reason good Metroid games don't ask you to do hell runs without Varia, a heated room is a "Turn back" sign. "Get the item that lets you explore this area and come back" is a more satisfying progression than "Run through The Pain Zone for a while until you get the thing that makes it annoying instead of miserable." Never mind having to do a Boss fight with full Dark World damage which is just nonsense. Boost Guardian was a notorious wall and you [i]have the Dark Suit for that[/i]. If the boss has to dump health pick ups on the player all the time to be workable you've made a bad boss. Instead of trying things and looking around you're keeping an eye on you health bar and looking for containers that will shorten the time you spend standing around after working out how to get where you want to be. You don't invite exploration by putting the player on a death clock.

[quote="Zackonark"]Couple this with the fact that the beam weapons make enemy encounters a joke in either dimension and it sounds to me like people are doing something wrong and blaming the game for it.[/quote]
If people are playing the game wrong it's because the game does a horrible job introducing its mechanics and leading the player to engage with them. The Dark World is introduced by simple exposure to it shredding you, your beams have limited ammo which leads the player to think they're special and should be saved until they are needed, like missiles, and it's not always clear when a beam will be effective, see: Chykka and iirc one or all of the Dark Samus fights being weaker to Dark. On top of that you just [i]don't need[/i] the Dark Beam early on. Nothing is that strong and the Power Beam is plenty powerful for anything you meet for... most of the game, really. The scariest enemies you meet early are any given Ing or Ing possessed enemy, which the Dark beam doesn't hurt. So I found myself holding on to it until I needed it and it just didn't come up. And since the primary means of getting Dark Ammo is using the Light Beam, you don't get an easy way to refill until you get that with doesn't help get the player into the habit of using their new weapon. Light Beam had uses so I was just saving that up for bosses since they tended to be weak to it and that whole get opposite ammo for the beam you're using mechanic was too dumb for me to want to deal with. Switching to the Dark Beam in the place where it largely, again: Chyyka, doesn't work is dumb just give me Light Ammo. Early impressions discourage the player at so many turns in Echoes.

Echoes instills bad habits in the player and does not encourage or reward correction. You use the beams when they're needed but they are rarely needed and run out of ammo quickly when you do. You find Seeker Missiles, a brand new toy for Echoes, and they are useless. The Annihilator Beam, your big end game reward like the Plasma Beam was, is an ammo sink that doesn't help you. The Light Suit fixes the problem that the Dark Suit should have far too late to change anyone's a opinion on the Dark World.

It's bad design.
It's the game's fault people don't use the other beams. It's the game's fault people don't want to engage with the Dark World.

You compared the various zones of Aether to Zelda dungeons, but they fall into the bad kind of Zelda dungeon, the kind that's just sort of there and reward you with an item you'll use in that dungeon and maybe once or twice elsewhere. Every upgrade in Echoes is the Dominion Rod from Twilight Princess. Or Dual Claw Shots. Or The Spinner. Or the Ball and Chain.[sub] Boy was that game a series of disappointments.[/sub] You pick them up and think "Ooh cool I can't wait to mess around with this!" And then all it's good for is maybe beating the boss and getting an extra missile tank.

Basically Echoes is the Metroid equivalent of Twilight Princess. And now I've made myself sad. I was so excited for both of them. :???:
 
[quote="Zackonark"]At the point of Echoes being boring. Narratively, the world looking grayed out and dead is due to the planet’s life energy having been removed. The environments were made to reflect this, to reenforce the fact that Aether is dying. It was described to have been a paradise before the Leviathan struck the planet, and if the game had been set in that time I wager the environments would’ve been a lot more vibrant and eye-catching. The story would’ve been very different tho.[/quote]
Games have before and after Echoes done Dead World in a way that is visually interesting. Chozo Ruins in Prime was even a better example of a dead, barren environment. Infested with bugs, old withered plant life the water was actual poison, it was not a good place to be, but also a great place to be. And largely brown. It's not about colors, it's about the shape of it, what's in it, and what's not. There's nothing to the Temple Grounds or Agon. They're very generic They could be slipped into so many games and not look too out of place. Sanctuary just a green place full of holes. I've been on record on this forum as saying the game would be better if it was all Dark World and that's in part due to those versions of Aether are less bland. I also had a long dumb post here about Torvus being the best zone because there's at least stuff to look at even though playing it sucks, whereas the other places suck to play while being boring to look at. We know Retro could do good level design, Prime exists. Corruption had some good stuff too. Just Echoes doesn't, maybe it had to be generic because of the Light/Dark mechanic. I don't know. But if that's the case that mechanic should have been scrapped.

DJGrenola

Edit history:

DJGrenola: 2018-09-25 06:31:30 am

DJGrenola: 2018-09-25 06:27:21 am

2018-09-25 06:26:26 am

I love it when tbob gets all passionate about something. never change, sir.

I could be wrong about this, but I've always suspected the reason prime 2 was kind of a miss was because they were determined to add the multiplayer mode. It feels like they went down the path of "it wouldn't make sense for Samus to be fighting another Samus in multi, so we need some sort of character for her to battle who has all of her abilities but is actually evil". So they hit on the idea of giving her a dark twin. "Metroid Prime is actually Dark Samus now" always felt a bit creatively bankrupt to me but it was a necessary contrivance from the point of view of having a multiplayer mode. Then that idea infected the rest of the game and so not only did we get something that was starved of dev time by the multiplayer mode but also one that was afflicted with dark world mania by the multiplayer mode. Perhaps I'm joining a few too many dots here, as the human mind tends to do, but that's how it's always seemed to me.

I actually disagree with tbob that dark world drain during boss fights is a problem. Those are boss fights and I'm fine with them being tricky -- there's not enough of that sort of thing nowadays -- but it's a pretty miserable mechanic the majority of the time.

It's not a bad game. it's just disappointing compared to the first one.

I love it when tbob gets all passionate about something. never change, sir.

I could be wrong about this, but I've always suspected the reason prime 2 was kind of a miss was because they were determined to add the multiplayer mode. It feels like they went down the path of "it wouldn't make sense for Samus to be fighting another Samus in multi, so we need some sort of character for her to battle who has all of her abilities but is actually evil". So they hit on the idea of giving her a dark twin. "Metroid Prime is actually Dark Samus now" always felt a bit creatively bankrupt to me but it was a necessary contrivance from the point of view of having a multiplayer mode. Then that idea infected the rest of the game and so not only did we get something that was starved of dev time by the multiplayer mode but also one that was afflicted with dark world mania by the multiplayer mode. Perhaps I'm joining a few too many dots here, as the human mind tends to do, but that's how it's always seemed to me.

I actually disagree with tbob that dark world drain during boss fights is a problem. Those are boss fights and I'm fine with them being tricky -- there's not enough of that sort of thing nowadays -- but it's a pretty miserable mechanic the majority of the time.

It's not a bad game. it's just disappointing compared to the first one.

Aruki

2018-09-25 02:32:46 pm

If anyone hasn't seen it, Jack Mathews did an interview with Shinesparkers a while ago where he was quite candid about the reason why certain things turned out the way they did in Echoes, and I'd highly recommend giving it a read if you're interested in knowing more about it.

https://shinesparkers.net/interviews/jack-mathews/

In particular, his take on flaws in Prime 2:

Quote:

My personal opinions? Prime 2 was too difficult, but it was masking a lot of other flaws. Being in the dark world was constantly stressful, the ammo mechanic was stressful, the dark world’s color palette was samey which led to environmental confusion and thus, stressful. The game simply made you anxious when you were playing it. It was a very difficult game to make because there were a lot of voices in how to follow up the first game, and I think you saw a studio and Nintendo, who newly owned Retro, trying to figure out how to really collaborate and follow up a critical darling. That came through in the end product.

On why the Dark World turned out the way it did:

Quote:

I would have loved more differentiation between the light and dark worlds of Prime 2, but there was not time or money for it. We wanted to go the route of reusing environments between light and dark, because we could make a schedule work that way – we thought it would be great! More bang for the buck!

But of course, we could never find a technical solution to make the dark world variants different enough to be interesting, and it turns out that completely dark worlds are just not fun – the first concepts had Samus pretty much walking around with a spotlight emitting from her, and it was just impossible to play.

So, the artists had to do a ton of work to make the dark world variants work and, well, it was a ton more work than anyone had budgeted for and was completely unplanned. In fact, the Sanctuary Fortress was the only area built with this plan in mind, which is why both light and dark actually look visually distinct and amazing. But there was no time (immovable limitation) to really rebuild the rest of the game, but at least we got the Sanctuary Fortress. So what’s the solution? Plan better? Have less content? Be smarter? It’s hard to know, with the info we would have had then, what we reasonably could have done differently.

Well I do have one improvement – Prime 2 Multiplayer. That should have never happened 🙂

If anyone hasn't seen it, Jack Mathews did an interview with Shinesparkers a while ago where he was quite candid about the reason why certain things turned out the way they did in Echoes, and I'd highly recommend giving it a read if you're interested in knowing more about it.

https://shinesparkers.net/interviews/jack-mathews/

In particular, his take on flaws in Prime 2:

[quote]My personal opinions? Prime 2 was too difficult, but it was masking a lot of other flaws. Being in the dark world was constantly stressful, the ammo mechanic was stressful, the dark world’s color palette was samey which led to environmental confusion and thus, stressful. The game simply made you anxious when you were playing it. It was a very difficult game to make because there were a lot of voices in how to follow up the first game, and I think you saw a studio and Nintendo, who newly owned Retro, trying to figure out how to really collaborate and follow up a critical darling. That came through in the end product.[/quote]

On why the Dark World turned out the way it did:

[quote]I would have loved more differentiation between the light and dark worlds of Prime 2, but there was not time or money for it. We wanted to go the route of reusing environments between light and dark, because we could make a schedule work that way – we thought it would be great! More bang for the buck!

But of course, we could never find a technical solution to make the dark world variants different enough to be interesting, and it turns out that completely dark worlds are just not fun – the first concepts had Samus pretty much walking around with a spotlight emitting from her, and it was just impossible to play.

So, the artists had to do a ton of work to make the dark world variants work and, well, it was a ton more work than anyone had budgeted for and was completely unplanned. In fact, the Sanctuary Fortress was the only area built with this plan in mind, which is why both light and dark actually look visually distinct and amazing. But there was no time (immovable limitation) to really rebuild the rest of the game, but at least we got the Sanctuary Fortress. So what’s the solution? Plan better? Have less content? Be smarter? It’s hard to know, with the info we would have had then, what we reasonably could have done differently.

Well I do have one improvement – Prime 2 Multiplayer. That should have never happened 🙂[/quote]

Zackonark

2018-09-25 03:36:49 pm

Let’s run the through the dark world sections in Agon (the only 3 before the dark suit) and see where the player could possibly get lost. Let’s also bear in mind that safe zones are massive in Dark Agon Wastes, the player has Light Bringers (underutilized walking safe zones), and the game pauses whenever the player looks at the map so the player may study it to their heart’s content no matter the situation.

-The Space Jump run
The player steps out of the portal and is greeted by 2 possible doors to travel through with no enemies between them and either option. One is locked off by a bomb slot that is right next to it and the other is soft locked by a ledge too tall for the player to jump over. So the player has one option that leads the player to a small two-way hall with Inglet enemies. On Normal/Veteran difficulty (depending on which version of the game the player is playing, both the hardest for a first time run) Inglets go down with a single charge shot or missile, granting the player easy hp and ammo pick ups. Again walking through the only way forward, the player is given another two-way hallway that ramps up the challenge by presenting the player with a string of Inglets surrounding light beacons. This should make the player a tad nervous, but it’s nothing any player can’t handle. This section also rewards the player with a save station and a permanent swarm of Night Barbs, both for health and ammo restocking purposes. Again going through the only way forward leads the player to a room with 3 blue doors and a dark door. At this point the player cannot access the dark door, and the player just came through one of the blue doors, so the player is left with 2 options. Later the player will discover that one of the doors is impossible to access, as is the portal just next to it, so there is again only one way forward. However, just before this is a battle with two Ing Warriors. This is presented as a mini-boss battle, but is also fought from the safety of a safe zone and should be nothing the player can’t handle. Even if the player does run low on hp, they can go back to the save station that is a hop, skip, and a jump away from where they fight the Ing Warriors and use it without re-spawning the Ing Warriors. Again, traveling through the one door available to the player leads the player to get another two-way hall, this one with no enemies and a small morph ball tunnel that teases the player with a missile expansion. This leads the player to a room with 2 blue doors, a red door, a dark door, and a green door. Since the player cannot access the green door and the dark door we can immediately illuminate them options, and the door the player just walked through as well. But before the player can test the other two doors, the player must fight the Jump Guardian. This is a ramped up version of the earlier Ing Warrior fight with a larger health pool, and an AOE attack. Again, nothing the player shouldn’t be able to handle. After the fight, the player can travel to the temple gate and possibly find a Dark Temple Key, or go back to the portal at the start of this via the short cut provided to them.

If this is the first impression of the dark world, it looks like a more challenging side of the area you’re in with only one way forward. No real exploration is needed here, and the increased difficulty is stressful, but not anywhere near impossible to deal with.

-The Light Beam run
Once the player steps out of the portal that they activated with their newly acquired Dark Beam, they are presented with 2 dark doors, two white doors, and a small puzzle. Two of the doors and a Dark Temple Key are on the upper side of the room, and are seemingly inaccessible to the player. Thus the player may try the dark door on the lower side of the room, but will find a small hallway with a light door on the other side, proving the room useless to the for the time being. By use of the Scan Visor, they can easily solve the puzzle and use the newly formed platform to get to the upper level of the room where they can acquire the Dark Temple Key and gain access to the dark door that is up there. This door leads to a cramped hallway with a blue door on the other end and a small encounter with an Ing Warrior. The player should only have gotten stronger by this point, so the Ing Warrior should be absolutely no issue at all. This door leads to a seemingly C-shaped room with a white door, a portal the player can’t yet access, and a blue door. So the only available way forward is the blue door. This leads to another hallway with another puzzle in it and 2 blue doors. This puzzle is just like the previous one, but without the small object you need to blow up first, so it’s easier to solve and the player can go through the other door almost unhindered. Now the player is at a save station, so all the go he/she lost in the previous rooms is regained. This save station yet again only has 2 doors, so the player only has one way forward. The next room is a small Morph Ball section with a small pit of Phazon in the middle. It’s simple platforming that makes avoiding the Phazon relatively easily, however the player can mess up and fall into the Phazon. However, as stated, this pool is small so it’s a simple matter of getting out, thus the player shouldn’t lose too much hp here. It is also worth noting the entire pool is encased in a safe zone making it slightly less effective than later Phazon sections. Even less so if the player is playing the Trilogy version of the game which has the Spring Ball that makes short work of escaping this pool of Phazon. This room again only has 2 doors, so the player only has one way forward. The next room has 2 other doors: one blue and one annihilator. Since the player cannot access the annihilator door, there is only one way forward, but it is locked by 3 locks that are at 3 different corners of the room, and must be scanned when the player is near them. This room also has a bunch of Phazon the player must navigate around, increasing the overall difficulty of the room. After this is yet another hallway with a red door on the other end. It features Ing Claws that amplify the effect of the dark atmosphere when the player is near them, as well as a nullified light crystal the player can shoot a few times to create a permanent safe zone. Aside from being a little intimidating, this room amounts to nothing more than a couple of platforms the player has to jump across. The next room has a light door, and a dark door in it. The light door is again unaccessible so that leaves the dark door. To reach this door, the player must hit two platforms with the Dark Beam exactly like the previous two puzzles. However, this time the points that must be shot by the Dark Beam are protected by swarms of Night Barbs. By simply killing these 1 hp enemies with the power beam, the player should gain several hp and missile drops to replenish some of the resources they lost in the Phazon section. By going through the dark door, the player is given the Light Beam which allows them access to the light door in the room we just left. This light door is a shortcut back to the room this run started in, marking the point where the player is free to explore. There are only a couple options tho. The other light door and the dark door the player couldn’t travel through in the starting room are both accessible now, but both lead to the same room. This room has the final Dark Temple Key which is obtained by killing several Ing Warriors. This fight is made much easier by the light beam as a fully charged shot of it followed by 2 or 3 normal shots will kill one warrior. The player can also kill them with a single shot if they energize the safe zones in the room with the light beam, and a warrior travels inside one of the energized safe zones. That is assuming the player has figured out he/she can do that. Should the player run out of light ammo, there are a multitude of plants the player can shoot with the Dark Beam to net themself more light ammo. This leaves only one other light door in this entire run in the C-shaped room. This leads to an ammo recharge station. Meaning the only way forward from here is the portal.

Overall, this run is a fair bit more challenging than the previous one. But at this point in the game, the player has previous dark world experience, and may have acquired health and missile expansions. This is yet again, more stressful than its light world counterpart, but still shouldn’t be a problem for the player. Still no real expansions to collect here so this section is merely a test of the player’s ability to travers the dark world, and is never at any point unfair.

-The Amorbis run
Assuming the player had my found the key from the Space Jump run, there are very few doors the player can reach in the dark world at this point, so it should be no trouble at all. And since the player found two keys in the Light Beam run, they only have one key left to find so they’re likely to want to search for the last one. Even if they found it and just want to explore what they can, that leaves the two dark doors from the Space Jump run: both leading to a missile expansion and a save room respectively. So this leaves the boss of the area who doesn’t really aim for the player with its attacks, gives the player plenty of time and ample space to think, and showers the player with pick ups throughout the fight as unnecessary as they are. Light beam makes short work of every phase, but charged power beam and missiles are also effective in this fight. Amorbis gives the player the dark suit for defeating it meaning all future dark world sections will be far less stressful.

The argument of whether or not all this is fun is purely subjective, but from a mechanical standpoint all 3 of these sections are very easy despite being more challenging than their light world counterparts. Them being more challenging also makes sense narratively. For decades the Luminoth have fought the Ing and are on the verge of losing the war and subsequent extinction. The dark world is supposed to be stressful, it’s supposed to be more challenging. The player is invading enemy territory, killing the enemy’s kin, and stealing back what they stole from the Luminoth. That kind of mission is not supposed to be a cake walk.

As for the Boost Guardian being a bad boss, I won’t argue against it. The Boost Guardian is a very poorly designed fight.

As for the Dark Beam being useless, there are still plenty of light world enemies, and several Ing possessed enemies that it’s very effective against. All in the Torvus region onward. It’s charged version, the Entangler, freezes enemies and makes them very susceptible to missiles. All pirates, dark or non, are killed with either an Entangler, or by a missile immediately after. This on top of the fact that light enemies take massive amounts of damage from the Dark Beam in general. The Light Beam on the other hand sets most enemies on fire, and it’s charged version homes in on locked-on to targets. I already mentioned it’s effect of safe zones which is all coupled with the fact that dark enemies take massive amounts of damage from it. These beams are extremely useful, over powered in fact. This is why they have ammo, of which you should never run out of due to the game’s generous drop rate from even supply crates. People are just weirded out by the fact that beams have ammo in this game. That’s why they don’t use them. I just got caught up on Mighty Gazelle’s blind playthrough of Prime 2, and as soon as he got the Dark Beam all he could do was praise the weapon for how over powered it is until he was alerted to the fact that he ran out of ammo. Just as an example of the sheer power these things have.

Do you need these beams in Agon? Not really, but you will need them going forward. Agon is all about preparing the player for the rest of the game. It’s the end of a slow introduction that aims to make sure the player knows exactly what he/she is up against. And it’s done a fantastic job at subtlety doing so.

As for the art opinions you put forth. I will not argue those as criticizing art comes entirely down to subjectivity. We could argue to death about it. I will only stand by my point that it’s justified by the narrative.

As for the Dark Samus, multi-player conspiracy theory. I don’t exactly understand how you came to this conclusion. You even said yourself that you may be drawing lines between the wrong dots. I think you are.

I haven’t read that interview yet. I am aware the game wasn’t exactly as they planned it tho. They did only have 2 years to build the game after all, so many things were inevitably going to be flawed or unfinished or rushed.

Let’s run the through the dark world sections in Agon (the only 3 before the dark suit) and see where the player could possibly get lost. Let’s also bear in mind that safe zones are massive in Dark Agon Wastes, the player has Light Bringers (underutilized walking safe zones), and the game pauses whenever the player looks at the map so the player may study it to their heart’s content no matter the situation.

-The Space Jump run
The player steps out of the portal and is greeted by 2 possible doors to travel through with no enemies between them and either option. One is locked off by a bomb slot that is right next to it and the other is soft locked by a ledge too tall for the player to jump over. So the player has one option that leads the player to a small two-way hall with Inglet enemies. On Normal/Veteran difficulty (depending on which version of the game the player is playing, both the hardest for a first time run) Inglets go down with a single charge shot or missile, granting the player easy hp and ammo pick ups. Again walking through the only way forward, the player is given another two-way hallway that ramps up the challenge by presenting the player with a string of Inglets surrounding light beacons. This should make the player a tad nervous, but it’s nothing any player can’t handle. This section also rewards the player with a save station and a permanent swarm of Night Barbs, both for health and ammo restocking purposes. Again going through the only way forward leads the player to a room with 3 blue doors and a dark door. At this point the player cannot access the dark door, and the player just came through one of the blue doors, so the player is left with 2 options. Later the player will discover that one of the doors is impossible to access, as is the portal just next to it, so there is again only one way forward. However, just before this is a battle with two Ing Warriors. This is presented as a mini-boss battle, but is also fought from the safety of a safe zone and should be nothing the player can’t handle. Even if the player does run low on hp, they can go back to the save station that is a hop, skip, and a jump away from where they fight the Ing Warriors and use it without re-spawning the Ing Warriors. Again, traveling through the one door available to the player leads the player to get another two-way hall, this one with no enemies and a small morph ball tunnel that teases the player with a missile expansion. This leads the player to a room with 2 blue doors, a red door, a dark door, and a green door. Since the player cannot access the green door and the dark door we can immediately illuminate them options, and the door the player just walked through as well. But before the player can test the other two doors, the player must fight the Jump Guardian. This is a ramped up version of the earlier Ing Warrior fight with a larger health pool, and an AOE attack. Again, nothing the player shouldn’t be able to handle. After the fight, the player can travel to the temple gate and possibly find a Dark Temple Key, or go back to the portal at the start of this via the short cut provided to them.

If this is the first impression of the dark world, it looks like a more challenging side of the area you’re in with only one way forward. No real exploration is needed here, and the increased difficulty is stressful, but not anywhere near impossible to deal with.

-The Light Beam run
Once the player steps out of the portal that they activated with their newly acquired Dark Beam, they are presented with 2 dark doors, two white doors, and a small puzzle. Two of the doors and a Dark Temple Key are on the upper side of the room, and are seemingly inaccessible to the player. Thus the player may try the dark door on the lower side of the room, but will find a small hallway with a light door on the other side, proving the room useless to the for the time being. By use of the Scan Visor, they can easily solve the puzzle and use the newly formed platform to get to the upper level of the room where they can acquire the Dark Temple Key and gain access to the dark door that is up there. This door leads to a cramped hallway with a blue door on the other end and a small encounter with an Ing Warrior. The player should only have gotten stronger by this point, so the Ing Warrior should be absolutely no issue at all. This door leads to a seemingly C-shaped room with a white door, a portal the player can’t yet access, and a blue door. So the only available way forward is the blue door. This leads to another hallway with another puzzle in it and 2 blue doors. This puzzle is just like the previous one, but without the small object you need to blow up first, so it’s easier to solve and the player can go through the other door almost unhindered. Now the player is at a save station, so all the go he/she lost in the previous rooms is regained. This save station yet again only has 2 doors, so the player only has one way forward. The next room is a small Morph Ball section with a small pit of Phazon in the middle. It’s simple platforming that makes avoiding the Phazon relatively easily, however the player can mess up and fall into the Phazon. However, as stated, this pool is small so it’s a simple matter of getting out, thus the player shouldn’t lose too much hp here. It is also worth noting the entire pool is encased in a safe zone making it slightly less effective than later Phazon sections. Even less so if the player is playing the Trilogy version of the game which has the Spring Ball that makes short work of escaping this pool of Phazon. This room again only has 2 doors, so the player only has one way forward. The next room has 2 other doors: one blue and one annihilator. Since the player cannot access the annihilator door, there is only one way forward, but it is locked by 3 locks that are at 3 different corners of the room, and must be scanned when the player is near them. This room also has a bunch of Phazon the player must navigate around, increasing the overall difficulty of the room. After this is yet another hallway with a red door on the other end. It features Ing Claws that amplify the effect of the dark atmosphere when the player is near them, as well as a nullified light crystal the player can shoot a few times to create a permanent safe zone. Aside from being a little intimidating, this room amounts to nothing more than a couple of platforms the player has to jump across. The next room has a light door, and a dark door in it. The light door is again unaccessible so that leaves the dark door. To reach this door, the player must hit two platforms with the Dark Beam exactly like the previous two puzzles. However, this time the points that must be shot by the Dark Beam are protected by swarms of Night Barbs. By simply killing these 1 hp enemies with the power beam, the player should gain several hp and missile drops to replenish some of the resources they lost in the Phazon section. By going through the dark door, the player is given the Light Beam which allows them access to the light door in the room we just left. This light door is a shortcut back to the room this run started in, marking the point where the player is free to explore. There are only a couple options tho. The other light door and the dark door the player couldn’t travel through in the starting room are both accessible now, but both lead to the same room. This room has the final Dark Temple Key which is obtained by killing several Ing Warriors. This fight is made much easier by the light beam as a fully charged shot of it followed by 2 or 3 normal shots will kill one warrior. The player can also kill them with a single shot if they energize the safe zones in the room with the light beam, and a warrior travels inside one of the energized safe zones. That is assuming the player has figured out he/she can do that. Should the player run out of light ammo, there are a multitude of plants the player can shoot with the Dark Beam to net themself more light ammo. This leaves only one other light door in this entire run in the C-shaped room. This leads to an ammo recharge station. Meaning the only way forward from here is the portal.

Overall, this run is a fair bit more challenging than the previous one. But at this point in the game, the player has previous dark world experience, and may have acquired health and missile expansions. This is yet again, more stressful than its light world counterpart, but still shouldn’t be a problem for the player. Still no real expansions to collect here so this section is merely a test of the player’s ability to travers the dark world, and is never at any point unfair.

-The Amorbis run
Assuming the player had my found the key from the Space Jump run, there are very few doors the player can reach in the dark world at this point, so it should be no trouble at all. And since the player found two keys in the Light Beam run, they only have one key left to find so they’re likely to want to search for the last one. Even if they found it and just want to explore what they can, that leaves the two dark doors from the Space Jump run: both leading to a missile expansion and a save room respectively. So this leaves the boss of the area who doesn’t really aim for the player with its attacks, gives the player plenty of time and ample space to think, and showers the player with pick ups throughout the fight as unnecessary as they are. Light beam makes short work of every phase, but charged power beam and missiles are also effective in this fight. Amorbis gives the player the dark suit for defeating it meaning all future dark world sections will be far less stressful.

The argument of whether or not all this is fun is purely subjective, but from a mechanical standpoint all 3 of these sections are very easy despite being more challenging than their light world counterparts. Them being more challenging also makes sense narratively. For decades the Luminoth have fought the Ing and are on the verge of losing the war and subsequent extinction. The dark world is supposed to be stressful, it’s supposed to be more challenging. The player is invading enemy territory, killing the enemy’s kin, and stealing back what they stole from the Luminoth. That kind of mission is not supposed to be a cake walk.

As for the Boost Guardian being a bad boss, I won’t argue against it. The Boost Guardian is a very poorly designed fight.

As for the Dark Beam being useless, there are still plenty of light world enemies, and several Ing possessed enemies that it’s very effective against. All in the Torvus region onward. It’s charged version, the Entangler, freezes enemies and makes them very susceptible to missiles. All pirates, dark or non, are killed with either an Entangler, or by a missile immediately after. This on top of the fact that light enemies take massive amounts of damage from the Dark Beam in general. The Light Beam on the other hand sets most enemies on fire, and it’s charged version homes in on locked-on to targets. I already mentioned it’s effect of safe zones which is all coupled with the fact that dark enemies take massive amounts of damage from it. These beams are extremely useful, over powered in fact. This is why they have ammo, of which you should never run out of due to the game’s generous drop rate from even supply crates. People are just weirded out by the fact that beams have ammo in this game. That’s why they don’t use them. I just got caught up on Mighty Gazelle’s blind playthrough of Prime 2, and as soon as he got the Dark Beam all he could do was praise the weapon for how over powered it is until he was alerted to the fact that he ran out of ammo.  Just as an example of the sheer power these things have.

Do you need these beams in Agon? Not really, but you will need them going forward. Agon is all about preparing the player for the rest of the game. It’s the end of a slow introduction that aims to make sure the player knows exactly what he/she is up against. And it’s done a fantastic job at subtlety doing so.

As for the art opinions you put forth. I will not argue those as criticizing art comes entirely down to subjectivity. We could argue to death about it. I will only stand by my point that it’s justified by the narrative.

As for the Dark Samus, multi-player conspiracy theory. I don’t exactly understand how you came to this conclusion. You even said yourself that you may be drawing lines between the wrong dots. I think you are.

I haven’t read that interview yet. I am aware the game wasn’t exactly as they planned it tho. They did only have 2 years to build the game after all, so many things were inevitably going to be flawed or unfinished or rushed.

arkarian

2018-09-25 04:27:00 pm

red chamber dream

i don't think you're going to change anyone's mind, if that's your goal. people view games differently - it's all subjective

arkarian

2018-09-25 04:28:54 pm

red chamber dream

Quote:

People are just weirded out by the fact that beams have ammo in this game. That’s why they don’t use them.

this, for example, sounds like a serious flaw in the game's design to me. you're right, it's difficult to actually run out of ammo (once you know what you're doing)

so why do the dark/light beams have ammo in the first place? beats me

Aruki

2018-09-25 04:37:46 pm

I assume the logic would've been something like, dark enemies are weak to light weapons, and light enemies are weak to dark weapons. So how do you incentivize players to ever use any other weapon than those? And they compensated for that by adding the ammo mechanic to nerf the beams, so players would not just use the dark/light beams exclusively. I think it's kind of a kludgy attempt to mask a design problem though (that the weapons are imbalanced), and the "fix" they applied has the side effect of making players anxious about ever using the dark/light beams.

Aruki

2018-09-25 05:00:48 pm

Quote from Zackonark:

it sounds to me like people are doing something wrong and blaming the game for it.

Also game design 101 is that you do not blame players for playing the game wrong. Players do not make decisions randomly, they make decisions based on the information the game presents to them. It is the game's responsibility to teach mechanics and help players learn how to play the game "correctly", make sure mechanics are intuitive and understandable, make sure players know where to go and don't get lost or stuck, etc. 99% of the time that players are doing something wrong, it's because of flaws in the design of the game.

arkarian

2018-09-25 05:15:34 pm

red chamber dream

yeah, this is the number 1 rule of ui/ux design as well - never blame the user. make the software easier to use. the same applies to games

Zackonark

Edit history:

Zackonark: 2018-09-25 05:17:09 pm

2018-09-25 05:16:27 pm

I don’t aim to change anyone’s mind. I merely want to understand why people feel the way they do. I present this information because it is why I’m confused when people say they dislike the game for one reason or another.

I don’t think it is the game’s fault in this case tho. People are told everything they need to know about the beams up front. The rest are just cool tricks the player can learn over time. They’re told that the beams are strong against enemies of the opposite type and how to replenish ammo. Let me emphasize that they are op one final time before saying this: people tend to take the path of least resistance. In games that translates to using the strongest or otherwise most effective means of accomplishment possible. This is what these beams are. So why does no one use them?

Aruki

Edit history:

Aruki: 2018-09-25 05:20:55 pm

Aruki: 2018-09-25 05:20:00 pm

2018-09-25 05:19:21 pm

They dont use them because the ammo mechanic actively punishes you for using them. Missiles are kind of the same boat in MP1, but I think what makes them different is that they deplete slower due to the slower firing rate & they aren't meant to be used as standard weapons. They are also on a separate button so it's easy to use them in conjunction with other weapons (like any of the other beams). The beams are more difficult to use (as they require you to switch weapons away from the power beam) and deplete very quickly if you're using them a lot.

If a mechanic is stressful and un-fun, it doesn't really matter if the game explains it. Players will still shy away from using it.

Zackonark

2018-09-25 05:24:17 pm

Alright. Fair enough

Opium

2018-09-26 07:21:56 am

Prime 2 is my favorite game in the trilogy and has been ever since I went back to it a few years after it came out. I don't seem to experience any of the issues that people complain about. I think some people have complained about it for so long that they are just too invested in the idea that it's bad, and there's nothing anyone could ever say to change their mind.

Zackonark

2018-09-26 09:55:27 am

I’m very much with you there.

For me, this was the first Metroid game I’ve ever played. I fell in love with the series because of this game, which is why I want my review to be as unbiased and as accurate as possible. Again, leading to this discussion. I’m trying to pinpoint exactly why people have these issues with this game, to better understand its shortcomings.

At this point, the game has been out far too long for me to change anyone’s mind on how they feel about the game, but if I can get a few people to at least appreciate what it was trying to do I’ll be extremely satisfied. Even if I don’t, it’s been a great learning experience at the least.

arkarian

2018-09-26 10:24:11 am

red chamber dream

i get what it was trying to do, i just don't like what it's trying to do. sure, i've only played the game twice, but that should be enough. i rarely play games more than once anyway

tomatobob

2018-09-26 04:43:03 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Opium:

Prime 2 is my favorite game in the trilogy and has been ever since I went back to it a few years after it came out. I don't seem to experience any of the issues that people complain about. I think some people have complained about it for so long that they are just too invested in the idea that it's bad, and there's nothing anyone could ever say to change their mind.

Nah I replayed it back when the the trilogy came out for Wii after going through Corruption for the first and it was still mechanically irritating. Which is saying something because Corruption is probably worse.

tomatobob

Edit history:

tomatobob: 2018-09-26 05:43:29 pm

tomatobob: 2018-09-26 05:42:45 pm

tomatobob: 2018-09-26 05:42:18 pm

2018-09-26 05:11:22 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Zackonark:

Let’s run the through the dark world sections in Agon (the only 3 before the dark suit) and see where the player could possibly get lost. Let’s also bear in mind that safe zones are massive in Dark Agon Wastes, the player has Light Bringers (underutilized walking safe zones), and the game pauses whenever the player looks at the map so the player may study it to their heart’s content no matter the situation.

I'm not gonna break this all down point by point, because no one needs that, but my point was in my experience on the first playthrough I spent a lot of time standing in bubbles wait for my health to come back. I wasn't lost at any point, occasionally got turned around due to samey environments. Jumps were missed, hits were taken, I would go jump around a bit to see if there was anything interesting that might lead to an upgrade, standard Metroid stuff, and between all that had to stand there while my health came back. It was not enjoyable.

Quote from Zackonark:

Agon is all about preparing the player for the rest of the game. It’s the end of a slow introduction that aims to make sure the player knows exactly what he/she is up against. And it’s done a fantastic job at subtlety doing so.

I mean... does it, though? Like, if you need the beams going forward (debatable) it should make you use them. If those beams will have ammo consumption and a non standard method of recovering that ammo it should make you deal with that. Give both beams at once, put the player in a position where both will be needed, make them use the mechanics. Even if it's bad they'll have made use of them and learned a bit about how to navigate. I certainly didn't leave Agon feeling like I was gonna need the Dark Beam for anything. I damn near forgot about it until someone here or on GameFAQs mentioned it was good for killing Rezbits. The game only really prepares you for using the Light Beam and even then you're picking your spots. It's like missiles but annoying.

Quote from DJGrenola:

I actually disagree with tbob that dark world drain during boss fights is a problem. Those are boss fights and I'm fine with them being tricky -- there's not enough of that sort of thing nowadays -- but it's a pretty miserable mechanic the majority of the time.

I think it was fine for Quadraxis, it's late enough that you either know what you're doing or have enough health to deal. But Amorbis with the Varia health drain is a little much. Boost Guardian I feel just needed to do a bit less damage. Dude drops Ultra healths like candy, I've seen more in that fight that an entire run of Prime, and he has to because he hits like freight train. Just feels like they didn't properly account for the health drain when they made Boosty, you generally have more room for error in Metroid boss fights if you've been hunting down E Tanks, that's not really the case with this one and it kind of feels wrong.

Quote from DJGrenola:

I love it when tbob gets all passionate about something. never change, sir.

I really wanted to like Echoes. Sad

Quote from Zackonark:

I want my review to be as unbiased and as accurate as possible.

For the record, this is not possible. A review isn't going to ever be unbiased an is only accurate for the reviewer. And that's ok! Don't worry so much about why a thing didn't work for other people, explain why it worked for you, you can be 100% accurate on that subject and it's a far more interesting one than trying to explain why other people didn't like it.

[quote="Zackonark"]Let’s run the through the dark world sections in Agon (the only 3 before the dark suit) and see where the player could possibly get lost. Let’s also bear in mind that safe zones are massive in Dark Agon Wastes, the player has Light Bringers (underutilized walking safe zones), and the game pauses whenever the player looks at the map so the player may study it to their heart’s content no matter the situation.[/quote]
I'm not gonna break this all down point by point, because no one needs that, but my point was in my experience on the first playthrough I spent a lot of time standing in bubbles wait for my health to come back. I wasn't lost at any point, occasionally got turned around due to samey environments. Jumps were missed, hits were taken, I would go jump around a bit to see if there was anything interesting that might lead to an upgrade, standard Metroid stuff, and between all that had to stand there while my health came back. It was not enjoyable.

[quote="Zackonark"]Agon is all about preparing the player for the rest of the game. It’s the end of a slow introduction that aims to make sure the player knows exactly what he/she is up against. And it’s done a fantastic job at subtlety doing so.[/quote]
I mean... does it, though? Like, if you need the beams going forward (debatable) it should make you use them. If those beams will have ammo consumption and a non standard method of recovering that ammo it should make you deal with that. Give both beams at once, put the player in a position where both will be needed, make them use the mechanics. Even if it's bad they'll have made use of them and learned a bit about how to navigate. I certainly didn't leave Agon feeling like I was gonna need the Dark Beam for anything. I damn near forgot about it until someone here or on GameFAQs mentioned it was good for killing Rezbits. The game only really prepares you for using the Light Beam and even then you're picking your spots. It's like missiles but annoying.

[quote="DJGrenola"]I actually disagree with tbob that dark world drain during boss fights is a problem. Those are boss fights and I'm fine with them being tricky -- there's not enough of that sort of thing nowadays -- but it's a pretty miserable mechanic the majority of the time.
[/quote]
I think it was fine for Quadraxis, it's late enough that you either know what you're doing or have enough health to deal. But Amorbis with the Varia health drain is a little much. Boost Guardian I feel just needed to do a bit less damage. Dude drops Ultra healths like candy, I've seen more in that fight that an entire run of Prime, and he has to because he hits like freight train. Just feels like they didn't properly account for the health drain when they made Boosty, you generally have more room for error in Metroid boss fights if you've been hunting down E Tanks, that's not really the case with this one and it kind of feels wrong.

[quote="DJGrenola"]I love it when tbob gets all passionate about something. never change, sir.[/quote]
I really wanted to like Echoes. :sad:

[quote="Zackonark"]I want my review to be as unbiased and as accurate as possible.[/quote]
For the record, this is not possible. A review isn't going to ever be unbiased an is only accurate for the reviewer. And that's ok! Don't worry so much about why a thing didn't work for other people, explain why it worked for you, you can be 100% accurate on that subject and it's a far more interesting one than trying to explain why other people didn't like it.

Aruki

2018-09-27 02:43:36 am

Quote from Zackonark:

At this point, the game has been out far too long for me to change anyone’s mind on how they feel about the game, but if I can get a few people to at least appreciate what it was trying to do I’ll be extremely satisfied.

see when you say stuff like this it gives me the impression that you're approaching this conversation in bad faith. Like you said to begin with you just wanted to understand peoples' perspectives but then when people try to explain to you you're being super argumentative and trying to shoot everything down. Which makes me think you're trying to argue against criticism, not understand it.

To be clear it's totally fine if you enjoy the game. I like it myself. Just think that you can like a game and also admit it has flaws. And it's cool if those flaws don't bother you. But if you want to look at the game through a neutral lens, if something impacts such a significant number of players, its worth looking at and saying, hey, yeah, there might've been something that could've been designed better. Or etc. For me the flaws the game have don't outweigh the good parts. I certainly think there's things that could've been done differently that would've resulted in a game I personally would've enjoyed more. But I def don't think it's a bad game.

I agree with tbob that you should just talk about why you enjoyed the game and why it worked for you. Reviews are inherently biased, and they should be, they are all about presenting an opinion. You can acknowledge that the game is flawed (from the perspective of some players at least) but then go on to say why those flaws don't bother you. Or just skip them entirely if you don't think they're worth discussing. It's your review, it's up to you, present -your- opinion.

Quote from tomatobob:

Boost Guardian I feel just needed to do a bit less damage. Dude drops Ultra healths like candy, I've seen more in that fight that an entire run of Prime, and he has to because he hits like freight train. Just feels like they didn't properly account for the health drain when they made Boosty, you generally have more room for error in Metroid boss fights if you've been hunting down E Tanks, that's not really the case with this one and it kind of feels wrong.

For whatever it's worth, I have a strong suspicion Boost Guardian was super rushed. Yknow how most of the bosses in Echoes are giant versions of regular enemies? There's a ton of leftover data in the game suggesting Boost Guardian was supposed to be a giant Inglet. But in the end they scrapped that and reused assets from Jump Guardian for the boss battle. Makes me think they just threw something together because they were running out of time and weren't able to tune it properly.

[quote="Zackonark"]At this point, the game has been out far too long for me to change anyone’s mind on how they feel about the game, but if I can get a few people to at least appreciate what it was trying to do I’ll be extremely satisfied.[/quote]

see when you say stuff like this it gives me the impression that you're approaching this conversation in bad faith. Like you said to begin with you just wanted to understand peoples' perspectives but then when people try to explain to you you're being super argumentative and trying to shoot everything down. Which makes me think you're trying to argue against criticism, not understand it.

To be clear it's totally fine if you enjoy the game. I like it myself. Just think that you can like a game and also admit it has flaws. And it's cool if those flaws don't bother you. But if you want to look at the game through a neutral lens, if something impacts such a significant number of players, its worth looking at and saying, hey, yeah, there might've been something that could've been designed better. Or etc. For me the flaws the game have don't outweigh the good parts. I certainly think there's things that could've been done differently that would've resulted in a game I personally would've enjoyed more. But I def don't think it's a bad game.

I agree with tbob that you should just talk about why you enjoyed the game and why it worked for you. Reviews are inherently biased, and they should be, they are all about presenting an opinion. You can acknowledge that the game is flawed (from the perspective of some players at least) but then go on to say why those flaws don't bother you. Or just skip them entirely if you don't think they're worth discussing. It's your review, it's up to you, present -your- opinion.

[quote="tomatobob"]Boost Guardian I feel just needed to do a bit less damage. Dude drops Ultra healths like candy, I've seen more in that fight that an entire run of Prime, and he has to because he hits like freight train. Just feels like they didn't properly account for the health drain when they made Boosty, you generally have more room for error in Metroid boss fights if you've been hunting down E Tanks, that's not really the case with this one and it kind of feels wrong.[/quote]

For whatever it's worth, I have a strong suspicion Boost Guardian was super rushed. Yknow how most of the bosses in Echoes are giant versions of regular enemies? There's a ton of leftover data in the game suggesting Boost Guardian was supposed to be a giant Inglet. But in the end they scrapped that and reused assets from Jump Guardian for the boss battle. Makes me think they just threw something together because they were running out of time and weren't able to tune it properly.