20% Topic

2010-07-08 03:39:42 pm

red chamber dream

that's another thing that's been tried to some extent but it doesn't really seem possible without looking at the code. even then, almost certainly not possible since the ridley fight loads via a cutscene that triggers when you have all the artifacts.

arkarian

2010-07-08 03:41:04 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from McHazard:

...and maybe Wave Beam if someone finds an Impact Crater SW.

The idea, of course, being to find a way to wallcrawl past Prime 1.

lol ... even if you could do that, i very much doubt it would work. do the subchambers even exist on the map? i get the idea they're not even part of the map and just load via the cutscenes you trigger after each subchamber.

also yes livegiver is the other obstacle for skipping wave. i've messed around in there without wave a few times and it doesn't seem likely at all. worth looking into more though.

Boris

2010-07-08 03:46:18 pm

The Overlord of All Acorns.

Quote from McHazard:

...and maybe Wave Beam if someone finds an Impact Crater SW.

The idea, of course, being to find a way to wallcrawl past Prime 1.

i lol'd

however

we should look into the possibility of an impact crater SW.

if one is found, and prime 1 is skippable, that will cut at least a minute off, won't it?

Aruki

Edit history:

Aruki: 2010-07-08 05:02:57 pm

Aruki: 2010-07-08 05:01:38 pm

2010-07-08 05:00:08 pm

delaying morph ball until after wave isn't gonna happen... you'd need to make your way through the ruins without it and pick up morph ball bombs, and from there climb up Aboretum without exiting morph ball mode, get through the missile shield-protected door, manage to reach the morph ball slots without being able to SJ to them or unmorph to shoot the mirrors, as well as somehow not being unmorphed by the cutscenes during the fight. i suppose you could use the burning trail SW to bypass the morph ball tunnel room right before the elevator to Phendrana though. also, keep in mind we need either morph ball or missiles to kill Sheegoth, so we'd need to skip that fight.

skipping varia would require being able to get through magmoor without it on one tank. varialess magmoor with 1 tank and no SJ is not going to happen, period, unless someone finds an invincibility glitch. after wave i think we'd wallcrawl over to the other magmoor elevator to avoid needing to go through the heated section again and pick up plasma, then get to the tallon overworld elevator, head to the mines, get PBs, tallon, get xray, back to the mines, get phazon suit, and at that point there'd be no need for varia anymore. something else of note is i'm not entirely sure how it works, but echoes has an invincibility glitch by abusing infinite speed bug with morph ball cannons. prime 1 doesn't have morph ball cannons obviously but perhaps there's something else that can make us invincible. even so - this is not going to lead to 20% unless the magmoor workstation SW w/o SJ is 100% confirmed, and some way to negate the heat damage in magmoor because not having SJ for varialess magmoor makes it impossible to do a lot of shortcuts.

x-ray is an instant 20% if someone can find a way to hurt OP. though i wouldn't be looking forward to doing no space jump/xray MQA. :/ this seems like the simplest item to skip though for the same reason this has been looked into to death... but still if someone can find a way to do it then we have 20%, simple as that.

i don't think power bomb skip is going to happen, it's needed in a lot of places aside from artifact of warrior - off the top of my head we need it to destroy the rock wall in phen's edge and we need it to get into life grove tunnel and to destroy the walls in life grove.

also i propose stickying this and unstickying the 21% topic. xP

delaying morph ball until after wave isn't gonna happen... you'd need to make your way through the ruins without it and pick up morph ball bombs, and from there climb up Aboretum without exiting morph ball mode, get through the missile shield-protected door, manage to reach the morph ball slots without being able to SJ to them or unmorph to shoot the mirrors, as well as somehow not being unmorphed by the cutscenes during the fight. i suppose you could use the burning trail SW to bypass the morph ball tunnel room right before the elevator to Phendrana though. also, keep in mind we need either morph ball or missiles to kill Sheegoth, so we'd need to skip that fight.

skipping varia would require being able to get through magmoor without it on one tank. varialess magmoor with 1 tank and no SJ is not going to happen, period, unless someone finds an invincibility glitch. after wave i think we'd wallcrawl over to the other magmoor elevator to avoid needing to go through the heated section again and pick up plasma, then get to the tallon overworld elevator, head to the mines, get PBs, tallon, get xray, back to the mines, get phazon suit, and at that point there'd be no need for varia anymore. something else of note is i'm not entirely sure how it works, but echoes has an invincibility glitch by abusing infinite speed bug with morph ball cannons. prime 1 doesn't have morph ball cannons obviously but perhaps there's something else that can make us invincible. even so - this is not going to lead to 20% unless the magmoor workstation SW w/o SJ is 100% confirmed, and some way to negate the heat damage in magmoor because not having SJ for varialess magmoor makes it impossible to do a lot of shortcuts.

x-ray is an instant 20% if someone can find a way to hurt OP. though i wouldn't be looking forward to doing no space jump/xray MQA. :/ this seems like the simplest item to skip though for the same reason this has been looked into to death... but still if someone can find a way to do it then we have 20%, simple as that.

i don't think power bomb skip is going to happen, it's needed in a lot of places aside from artifact of warrior - off the top of my head we need it to destroy the rock wall in phen's edge and we need it to get into life grove tunnel and to destroy the walls in life grove.

also i propose stickying this and unstickying the 21% topic. xP

Kharay1977

2010-07-08 05:01:57 pm

Quote from Paraxade:

also i propose stickying this and unstickying the 21% topic. xP

/signed

arkarian

Edit history:

arkarian: 2010-07-08 07:13:38 pm

2010-07-08 07:09:01 pm

red chamber dream

good call.

re: skipping varia -- keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to go through the first part of magmoor at all. i think the chances of that are about 0 which is why i want to look into taking the long way through mines to magmoor workstation, etc. granted, there are more obstacles to get past that way (wave doors, etc) but they seem like more 'reasonable' obstacles than trying to get through heated magmoor somehow.

072

2010-07-08 07:16:23 pm

coral to complement blue

Let's hope some of the MP veterans who did all the groundwork for 21% will take notice of this topic and get interested again.

Kharay1977

2010-07-08 07:21:47 pm

Quote from 072:

Let's hope some of the MP veterans who did all the groundwork for 21% will take notice of this topic and get interested again.

Yeah, I've been hoping for that as well.

rekameohs

2010-07-08 07:25:59 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from Paraxade:

unstickying the 21% topic. xP

Farewell, 21% Topic, ye have served us well.

Quote from arkarian:

i want to look into taking the long way through mines to magmoor workstation, etc. granted, there are more obstacles to get past that way

There's only two. The wave door in phazon mines leading to tallon overworld and the two rooms in far phendrana blocked off by wave doors. Everything else (other than the plasma issue) should be fine.

Kharay1977

Edit history:

Kharay1977: 2010-07-08 07:35:32 pm

2010-07-08 07:34:13 pm

Anything impossible preventing us from attempting Phazon Suit before Wave Beam? Or did I just say something silly? To me it seems that to have any shot at surviving Magmoor (needed to get to Phendrana, for Wave Beam) we'd need Phazon Suit. As we're hypothetically skipping Varia.

rekameohs

2010-07-08 07:41:03 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from Kharay1977:

Anything impossible preventing us from attempting Phazon Suit before Wave Beam?

If it could be done, it would have to be with varia. You'd have to enter phazon mines through magmoor- unless we find a sw in the tallon/phazon elevator, hint, hint- and wallcrawling through magmoor is only possible with varia.

Kharay1977

2010-07-08 07:43:14 pm

Quote from rekameohs:

and wallcrawling through magmoor is only possible with varia.

Which is why I suggested Phazon before Wave. So we can go through Magmoor. So, yes, we'd need new SWs to/from elevator rooms then. What about doors? Or other obstacles?

arkarian

2010-07-08 07:55:12 pm

red chamber dream

i'll repost what i said in the 21% thread:

http://www.metroid2002.com/secret_worlds_magmoor_workstation.php

so there's a sw in magmoor workstation but it looks like currently you need sj to access it. if we found a way in without sj though we'd be able to reach the elevator to far phendrana. then it's just a matter of wallcrawling to wave (without sj) from there.

it does look like maybe you could dash up to the workstation sw without sj though so that'd be where to start if you ask me.

there's a cute sw in transport access you should be able to use to get to wave so phendrana is solved afaik. obviously, i'm assuming ibbf for all this. also, currently you'd need charge to use this sw, but that means maybe we could try an alternate 21% game (charge but not varia).

ok so assuming that's possible the only thing left is to get through phazon mines without wave. you need it to leave the initial elevator and there's no sw there ...

there's also one random wave door on the way to ppc but that's probably not a problem.

i'll repost what i said in the 21% thread:

http://www.metroid2002.com/secret_worlds_magmoor_workstation.php

so there's a sw in magmoor workstation but it looks like currently you need sj to access it. if we found a way in without sj though we'd be able to reach the elevator to far phendrana. then it's just a matter of wallcrawling to wave (without sj) from there.

it does look like maybe you could dash up to the workstation sw without sj though so that'd be where to start if you ask me.

there's a cute sw in [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/secret_worlds_transport_access.php]transport access[/url] you should be able to use to get to wave so phendrana is solved afaik. obviously, i'm assuming ibbf for all this. also, currently you'd need charge to use this sw, but that means maybe we could try an alternate 21% game (charge but not varia).

ok so assuming that's possible the only thing left is to get through phazon mines without wave. you need it to leave the initial elevator and there's no sw there ...

there's also one random wave door on the way to ppc but that's probably not a problem.

arkarian

2010-07-08 07:56:32 pm

red chamber dream

basically, i think it would be worth our while to not worry about 20% initially and just try to skip varia while also skipping space jump. then we can go from there ... if not 20% then maybe an alt 21% which may be viable for a speed run.

petrie911

2010-07-08 08:45:38 pm

This has probably been looked at before, but a SW in Twin Fires would go a long way toward skipping Varia. Twin Fires Tunnel can (barely) be gotten through without Varia, and a SW would let us get around the Wave doors and all the way to the elevator.

Of course, TFT can only be crossed with Space Jump, so it would be alt 21% at best.

arkarian

2010-07-08 08:51:01 pm

red chamber dream

for some reason i thought tft was possible without sj. maybe i'm just remembering wrong though.

McHazard

2010-07-08 08:52:58 pm

Quote from arkarian:

there's a cute sw in transport access you should be able to use to get to wave so phendrana is solved afaik.

You'd need charge beam for that though so alt 21% again.

...unless you can UBJ on top of that bombu and get a damage boost or something, but I have no idea if that would even work.

arkarian

2010-07-08 08:57:55 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from arkarian a few minutes ago:

currently you'd need charge to use this sw, but that means maybe we could try an alternate 21% game (charge but not varia).

McHazard

2010-07-08 09:08:15 pm

...how did I miss that, I wonder...

sabata2

2010-07-08 09:10:14 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from McHazard:

Power Bombs: Needed for Artifact of Warrior (and in PAL, Plasma Beam).

What about looking for an alternate way to break this guy's case?

If it's just required for a single artifact (not damaging a boss) why not focus the efforts there?

bartendorsparky

Edit history:

bartendorsparky: 2010-07-08 09:13:09 pm

2010-07-08 09:12:28 pm

always move fast

i've tried everything i could think of there in order to make speedruns faster. pb expansions without the main upgrade don't work, i found a secret world nearby and tried flickerball, which doesn't work. and then i ran out of ideas.

edit: it's probably stupid but somebody with 0-01 or 0-02 should confirm that it doesn't break with just expansions and no main pb upgrade... >_>

arkarian

2010-07-08 09:13:29 pm

red chamber dream

don't you need pb for other stuff besides warrior anyway? like in the x-ray room and whatnot

McHazard

Edit history:

McHazard: 2010-07-08 09:13:58 pm

2010-07-08 09:13:35 pm

Those were just examples of what it's needed for. Unless you'd like me to make a comprehensive (is that the right word?) list?

sabata2

2010-07-08 09:19:55 pm

ANKOKU

Comprehensive is the right word. And it'd be very helpful.

Aruki

2010-07-08 09:20:33 pm

Quote from Paraxade:

i don't think power bomb skip is going to happen, it's needed in a lot of places aside from artifact of warrior - off the top of my head we need it to destroy the rock wall in phen's edge and we need it to get into life grove tunnel and to destroy the walls in life grove.

and regarding going through to magmoor workstation without varia suit, i'm pretty much 100% sure there are wave beam doors between the tallon elevator and workstation. gonna need to find a SW somewhere else to make it work.