Twin Galaxies

2005-02-07 02:13:20 am

I once read one of Red Scarlet's posts saying that Twin Galaxies didn't allow mockballing. I have no idea if anybody knows this, but they revised their rules. Mockballing is allowed, and the record there is forty-eight minutes. Shouldn't somebody beat that record? I know plenty of people here can.

Thread title:

Ekarderif

2005-02-07 02:24:03 am

Yes, but most people here don't give a fuck what Twin Galaxies thinks. The SDA is pretty much the anti-TG, and I'd much rather have a record over here than over there.

Zeke

2005-02-07 04:04:29 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Thanks for the info, Impact -- but for the record, this has been posted here before.

The whole idea of TG having its own records smacks of professional wrestling. But I guess if you can't agree on what holds to bar, you can't agree on a champion... Believe it or not, professional chess is also divided that way. For a long time the FIDE governed international chess, but in recent years their leadership has been questioned, and some players (including Garry Kasparov, probably the best chessmaster currently active) broke away and formed their own chess organization. Now there's a FIDE champion and a PCA-WCC-BGN champion.

And SDA isn't the anti-TG. It's the anti-TACGM.

Bladegash

2005-02-07 04:45:30 am

SDA is also anti-Tetris. =(

nate

2005-02-07 11:33:36 am

you could definitely say that the two sites' philosophies about the western concept of ownership are opposed, though. tg, while hiding people's tactics to get a certain time, actually takes ownership of at least the commentary, and maybe the run as well, i believe. sda, on the other hand, gives everyone with an internet connection or a dvd player and money the run and the tactics used therein, but the rights to the run and to the commentary remain with the original player. so it's really a question of whether you're so greedy you can't bear to see superior players take down your time just because you suck.

Lucid Faia

2005-02-07 03:53:53 pm

That's really not it at all, Nate. No offense to anyone, but Twin Galaxies is a much more respected and well-known organization than SDA (aside from a few internet forums), and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. That's why my runs typically go to TG, though I'm starting to send some of my backups to SDA.

You probably misphrased this part or I misunderstood you, but I'll respond anyway. TG becomes the owner of the VHS tape you send to them, but not the run itself, which is why many TG records have found their way to SDA. And I'm not sure what you mean by owning commentary. You're allowed to say whatever you want about your run or tactics used at any time, though you can request that the referees keep your tactics a secret in their articles.

Anyways, some time ago, Tom Votava who is a relatively new SNES referee, editted the rules for Super Metroid. The mockball and the crystal flash are legal. Unless I'm mistaken there hasn't been a ruling on the energy station refill yet. The Murder Beam is banned, and it should be. Look, I know we all want to try to get our time as low as possible by any means neccessary (Bisqwit listed an "end of input" time for the SMB time attack in a desperate attempt to get it under 5 minutes), but the Murder Beam is a bullshit tactic which shouldn't have ever been used in the first place. It reminds me of the select glitch in Link's Awakening or beating SM64 with 16 stars.

That's really not it at all, Nate. No offense to anyone, but Twin Galaxies is a much more respected and well-known organization than SDA (aside from a few internet forums), and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. That's why my runs typically go to TG, though I'm starting to send some of my backups to SDA.

You probably misphrased this part or I misunderstood you, but I'll respond anyway. TG becomes the owner of the VHS tape you send to them, but not the run itself, which is why many TG records have found their way to SDA. And I'm not sure what you mean by owning commentary. You're allowed to say whatever you want about your run or tactics used at any time, though you can request that the referees keep your tactics a secret in their articles.

Anyways, some time ago, Tom Votava who is a relatively new SNES referee, editted the rules for Super Metroid. The mockball and the crystal flash are legal. Unless I'm mistaken there hasn't been a ruling on the energy station refill yet. The Murder Beam is banned, and it should be. Look, I know we all want to try to get our time as low as possible by any means neccessary (Bisqwit listed an "end of input" time for the SMB time attack in a desperate attempt to get it under 5 minutes), but the Murder Beam is a bullshit tactic which shouldn't have ever been used in the first place. It reminds me of the select glitch in Link's Awakening or beating SM64 with 16 stars.

Kejardon

2005-02-07 04:11:27 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

I think you mean the space/time beam. The murder beam is only good for killing stuff, it doesn't let you skip vast parts of the game.
...
Yet. <_< >_>

Yoshi348

2005-02-07 06:50:19 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

No, he, and us, mean the Murder beam. What it murders is Mother Brain.

Radix

2005-02-07 07:15:15 pm

Quote from Lucid Faia:

That's really not it at all, Nate. No offense to anyone, but Twin Galaxies is a much more respected and well-known organization than SDA (aside from a few internet forums), and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. That's why my runs typically go to TG, though I'm starting to send some of my backups to SDA.

If you don't want to make your runs public then no amount of popularity of SDA will change your mind, will it?

Lucid Faia

2005-02-07 08:36:36 pm

Quote from Radix:

Quote from Lucid Faia:

That's really not it at all, Nate. No offense to anyone, but Twin Galaxies is a much more respected and well-known organization than SDA (aside from a few internet forums), and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. That's why my runs typically go to TG, though I'm starting to send some of my backups to SDA.

If you don't want to make your runs public then no amount of popularity of SDA will change your mind, will it?

I hope you're not talking about me when you say "you," since I am currently in the process of getting some runs public. It doesn't matter to me if other people see my tactics; I love a challenge.

Zeke

2005-02-07 09:04:04 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from Yoshi348:

No, he, and us, mean the Murder beam. What it murders is Mother Brain.

As Red Scarlet has demonstrated, it can also do a number on Ridley. Drop off a Murder Beam at the top of the room and it'll damage him every time he flies up there. Has anyone tried it on the other bosses? Not Draygon, obviously, but I'd love to see what it would do to Crocomire....

Re: SDA vs. TG, I for one don't give a geemer which one is more popular. I know which one I consider a better site, and it gets my business. (That's SDA, if anyone's insecure.)

nate

2005-02-07 09:29:02 pm

well ... it's not like you actually do ... anything ... at tg, you know what i mean? like you can look at some numbers and be like "oooh," i guess. but the "ooooooooooooh" is reserved for watching that run at sda.

Red Scarlet

2005-02-07 09:49:14 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

That might be something for Kejardon to try...use my 'get behind Crocomire' thing and shoot a murder beam at it from the right.

Yeah, I know TG changed some of their rules, but my run is still not legal for many things there, so no point to change my comments.

Kejardon

2005-02-07 10:58:01 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote from Red Scarlet:

That might be something for Kejardon to try...use my 'get behind Crocomire' thing and shoot a murder beam at it from the right.

Not much point in trying it. It would just kill Crocamire real quick, just like the plasma beam would. It's useful against Kraid, though, works like 4 quick super missiles. I imagine it would make the Gold Torizo easier too, just force it into the corner and let it rack up damage quick. Nothing real notable aside from those...
It would be interesting to try it against Botwoon, but I doubt what I'm thinking will work. Against respawning enemies, if you fire a murder beam while they're dead, the beam will cover the *entire* screen for them when they respawn. I doubt it would work on Botwoon though, since he probably just teleports off screen somewhere and wouldn't trigger the full-screen murder beam.
An interesting thing though: The murder beam can't freeze Yapping Maws (the skull-like things that grab you and usually pull you into a trap). Why? Because they're immune to power bombs, and the murder beam is considered a charged power bomb (No, not a beam shield, but an actual power bomb.... charged). Kinda messed up an idea I had. >_>

Back on topic: I glanced on tg and it said the energy station pause trick is accepted.
As for rules and such, I generally play however I feel is acceptable and if someone else considers that cheating, I don't much care. Though using glitches to skip the entire game seems pointless; runs through the game should show skill and practice. Cutting out large portions of the game usually cuts out a lot of effort, too.
Just my 2c.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]That might be something for Kejardon to try...use my 'get behind Crocomire' thing and shoot a murder beam at it from the right.[/quote]

Not much point in trying it. It would just kill Crocamire real quick, just like the plasma beam would. It's useful against Kraid, though, works like 4 quick super missiles. I imagine it would make the Gold Torizo easier too, just force it into the corner and let it rack up damage quick. Nothing real notable aside from those...
It would be interesting to try it against Botwoon, but I doubt what I'm thinking will work. Against respawning enemies, if you fire a murder beam while they're dead, the beam will cover the *entire* screen for them when they respawn. I doubt it would work on Botwoon though, since he probably just teleports off screen somewhere and wouldn't trigger the full-screen murder beam.
An interesting thing though: The murder beam can't freeze Yapping Maws (the skull-like things that grab you and usually pull you into a trap). Why? Because they're immune to power bombs, and the murder beam is considered a charged power bomb (No, not a beam shield, but an actual power bomb.... charged). Kinda messed up an idea I had. >_>

Back on topic: I glanced on tg and it said the energy station pause trick is accepted.
As for rules and such, I generally play however I feel is acceptable and if someone else considers that cheating, I don't much care. Though using glitches to skip the entire game seems pointless; runs through the game should show skill and practice. Cutting out large portions of the game usually cuts out a lot of effort, too.
Just my 2c.

Red Scarlet

2005-02-07 11:36:04 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I used the Murder Beam on the Gold Torizo (it's on one of my :55 tapes), but it turned out being slower. Of course the GT fight I took was crap, so maybe it would've been better there..it is cool how the GT freezes before it dies, though.

Lucid Faia

2005-02-08 03:15:56 am

Please stop using the Murder Beam. :(

Quote from njahnke:

well ... it's not like you actually do ... anything ... at tg, you know what i mean? like you can look at some numbers and be like "oooh," i guess. but the "ooooooooooooh" is reserved for watching that run at sda.

Twin Galaxies has a strong affiliation with a site called MARP, or MAME Action Replay Page. It hosts videos for arcade games played on the MAME emulator. It has a ridiculous amount of videos, and is even more impressive when you consider the feats accomplished, such as a perfect Pac-Man. The ones that are played under TG MAME settings (or TG Arcade settings in Perfect Pac-Man's case) become TG records. You also have many time-based TG records finding their way online, through either SDA or a personal website. Steve Wiebe, the man who scored over a million points at Donkey Kong, sells DVDs of his record breaking performance. You'd be surprised just how much of TG is accessible to you.

"What To Do" at TG. Well, there's obviously the whole world record thing. You've got cash bounties every year for certain gaming feats, as well as companionship with some of the best gamers alive. TG has affliation with major classic gaming competitions, and you can meet many TG gamers and refs/staff there.

Here's my opinion about watching videos of these records.
1. Being able to access a video is a good thing for everyone. It entertains, it attracts competition, and leaves you more open to crtiticism, both from others and from yourself.
2. But if you have to rely on one of these videos to break the record, you shouldn't be trying in the first place.

Please stop using the Murder Beam. :(

[quote="njahnke"]well ... it's not like you actually [i]do[/i] ... anything ... at tg, you know what i mean? like you can look at some numbers and be like "oooh," i guess. but the "ooooooooooooh" is reserved for watching that run at sda.[/quote]

Twin Galaxies has a strong affiliation with a site called MARP, or MAME Action Replay Page. It hosts videos for arcade games played on the MAME emulator. It has a ridiculous amount of videos, and is even more impressive when you consider the feats accomplished, such as a perfect Pac-Man. The ones that are played under TG MAME settings (or TG Arcade settings in Perfect Pac-Man's case) become TG records. You also have many time-based TG records finding their way online, through either SDA or a personal website. Steve Wiebe, the man who scored over a million points at Donkey Kong, sells DVDs of his record breaking performance. You'd be surprised just how much of TG is accessible to you.

"What To Do" at TG. Well, there's obviously the whole world record thing. You've got cash bounties every year for certain gaming feats, as well as companionship with some of the best gamers alive. TG has affliation with major classic gaming competitions, and you can meet many TG gamers and refs/staff there.

Here's my opinion about watching videos of these records.
1. Being able to access a video is a good thing for everyone. It entertains, it attracts competition, and leaves you more open to crtiticism, both from others and from yourself.
2. But if you have to rely on one of these videos to break the record, you shouldn't be trying in the first place.

Zeke

2005-02-08 03:43:22 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from Lucid Faia:

Please stop using the Murder Beam. :(

Dude. I get that you don't like it yourself, but why do you care if we use it? It's not like this is a moral issue or --

Oh. Oh.

Scarlet, you monster! Stop using the Murder Beam to actually murder people!

Mafus

2005-02-08 03:48:01 am

TG wont host actual videos, SDA does... Hence I prefer SDA.

nate

2005-02-08 04:03:33 am

Quote from Lucid Faia:

(some stuff)

cool, thanks for the info.

Quote from Lucid Faia:

1. Being able to access a video is a good thing for everyone. It entertains, it attracts competition, and leaves you more open to crtiticism, both from others and from yourself.
2. But if you have to rely on one of these videos to break the record, you shouldn't be trying in the first place.

agreed, with one caveat - i don't think the boundary between breaking a record and not breaking a record should be so well-defined/critical. i mean, if you are two seconds short of a record without knowledge of what other players are doing, and then you suddenly are able to break a record by thirty minutes once you learn, that is a realistic situation imo and the player should not be frowned on in that case. there are simply limits to how much a single person can be asked to do, and if you look at the prime section of this site, you will see why i believe that. only by bringing together many great ideas from many great people was prime able to be broken to such an extent.

[quote="Lucid Faia"](some stuff)[/quote]
cool, thanks for the info.

[quote="Lucid Faia"]1. Being able to access a video is a good thing for everyone. It entertains, it attracts competition, and leaves you more open to crtiticism, both from others and from yourself.
2. But if you have to rely on one of these videos to break the record, you shouldn't be trying in the first place.[/quote]
agreed, with one caveat - i don't think the boundary between breaking a record and not breaking a record should be so well-defined/critical. i mean, if you are two seconds short of a record without knowledge of what other players are doing, and then you suddenly are able to break a record by thirty minutes once you learn, that is a realistic situation imo and the player should not be frowned on in that case. there are simply limits to how much a single person can be asked to do, and if you look at the prime section of this site, you will see why i believe that. only by bringing together many great ideas from many great people was prime able to be broken to such an extent.

Lucid Faia

2005-02-08 04:48:57 am

Good point.

Yoshi348

2005-02-08 10:35:55 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

We're much different communities in how we got started. TG is based on the elite play of classic arcade games in getting high scores, SDA (at least the other section) is based on the elite play of Metroid Prime in getting fast times. There's a big difference between how elite classic arcade gameplay works compared to the much "longer", much more complex MP.

TSA

2005-02-08 12:35:03 pm

I agree with nate's last point.

I may know a lot about Zelda, but if not for people discussing it and coming together to pool their collective ideas, none of my recent three runs would exist on SDA. It is true - no one player can find out every little trick, no matter how much you play. And for somebody like me, who overlooks the obvious, it's good to have others double check your work to bring things to your attention.

As for TG vs SDA vs whoever:

I guess I have been fortunate in my dealings to not run into any issues with SDA and TG rulings. Radix did bend on the LoZ/AoL rules with the UP+A tactic, which technically is mysterious teleporting, but you get penalties in-game (less life, only two preset spots to warp to).

However, with my LA run - I finally ran into issues. I didn't do a LA run because of the two ruling differences. TG allowed save/quits on Link's Awakening for GB, but you couldn't use the THIEF trick. Fortunately, there is the DX version which has no rules, and hence I did that game as it fit onto TG and SDA.

I've only dealt personally with one ref, and he's only been very understanding and trusts my judgement in Zelda. However, some of the other refs have not been so understanding and welcoming, so I do have some negative feelings towards some of TG.

I mean, I did submit to TG long before I ever knew of SDA. It wasn't until Radix contacted me when he saw me hosting my own 5:45 OoT video and I had to take it down that I began submitting videos to SDA. And thanks to SDA, I no longer record on VHS, which I've had two bad experiences with already, and have learned how to record runs from a capture card and format them into various qualities and formats.

So I owe a lot to SDA and Radix. I also owe a lot to TG because they made a big deal of my sub 2 hour ALttP run 2 years ago which basically sparked Zelda speed runs and actually got my name out there (which actually wasn't the reason I did this).

I do speed runs for a personal challenge and they continue to make a series I love so much challenging. But I also do them to entertain people and to get people to be interested in Zelda. Since then, I've had 4 people surpass runs I've done, three of them did very nice jobs, and so far I have been pushed further by one of those. It also brings out a lot of competitors, and it's fun to compete.

That is something I notice over at TG, especially for the classic Zelda games. A lot of bad blood with some of the people. That's probably where this negative sentiment comes from. Hoarding "secrets". Like when a ref said I didn't know the mysterious of the flute warping.

Rolling Eyes

It's Recorder ;) And thanks to two organizations - ZeldaClassic and...yes...the alterered game play guys at the NES EMU Forums, pretty much everyone knows those "secrets". So, as I have come to realize from all my dealings in the last two years, not everyone who shits on you is your enemy, and not everyone who pulls you out of shit is your friend.

Either way, I think seeing a run is very important for the community, and is a necessity. On the other hand, I think as many people as possible are needed to verify runs due to lack of knowledge of only one or two people. It's only natural that different people will have different view points on something. And it's also hard with some so diverse and complex as speed runs. I think both groups are trying to do their best, it's just the philosophies don't mesh.

But hey, you never know. Someday it might all work out. Ok, time to go to class.

I agree with nate's last point.

I may know a lot about Zelda, but if not for people discussing it and coming together to pool their collective ideas, none of my recent three runs would exist on SDA.  It is true - no one player can find out every little trick, no matter how much you play.  And for somebody like me, who overlooks the obvious, it's good to have others double check your work to bring things to your attention.

As for TG vs SDA vs whoever:

I guess I have been fortunate in my dealings to not run into any issues with SDA and TG rulings.  Radix did bend on the LoZ/AoL rules with the UP+A tactic, which technically is mysterious teleporting, but  you get penalties in-game (less life, only two preset spots to warp to).

However, with my LA run - I finally ran into issues.  I didn't do a LA run because of the two ruling differences.  TG allowed save/quits on Link's Awakening for GB, but you couldn't use the THIEF trick.  Fortunately, there is the DX version which has no rules, and hence I did that game as it fit onto TG and SDA.

I've only dealt personally with one ref, and he's only been very understanding and trusts my judgement in Zelda.  However, some of the other refs have not been so understanding and welcoming, so I do have some negative feelings towards some of TG.

I mean, I did submit to TG long before I ever knew of SDA.  It wasn't until Radix contacted me when he saw me hosting my own 5:45 OoT video and I had to take it down that I began submitting videos to SDA.  And thanks to SDA, I no longer record on VHS, which I've had two bad experiences with already, and have learned how to record runs from a capture card and format them into various qualities and formats.

So I owe a lot to SDA and Radix.  I also owe a lot to TG because they made a big deal of my sub 2 hour ALttP run 2 years ago which basically sparked Zelda speed runs and actually got my name out there (which actually wasn't the reason I did this).

I do speed runs for a personal challenge and they continue to make a series I love so much challenging.  But I also do them to entertain people and to get people to be interested in Zelda.  Since then, I've had 4 people surpass runs I've done, three of them did very nice jobs, and so far I have been pushed further by one of those.  It also brings out a lot of competitors, and it's fun to compete.

That is something I notice over at TG, especially for the classic Zelda games.  A lot of bad blood with some of the people.  That's probably where this negative sentiment comes from.  Hoarding "secrets".  Like when a ref said I didn't know the mysterious of the flute warping.

:roll:

It's Recorder ;)  And thanks to two organizations - ZeldaClassic and...yes...the alterered game play guys at the NES EMU Forums, pretty much everyone knows those "secrets".  So, as I have come to realize from all my dealings in the last two years, not everyone who shits on you is your enemy, and not everyone who pulls you out of shit is your friend.

Either way, I think seeing a run is very important for the community, and is a necessity.  On the other hand, I think as many people as possible are needed to verify runs due to lack of knowledge of only one or two people.  It's only natural that different people will have different view points on something.  And it's also hard with some so diverse and complex as speed runs.  I think both groups are trying to do their best, it's just the philosophies don't mesh.

But hey, you never know.  Someday it might all work out.  Ok, time to go to class.

Red Scarlet

2005-02-08 01:32:29 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from Lucid Faia:

Please stop using the Murder Beam. :(

I haven't played the game since my :55, and I have no desire to ever play or watch a video of the game again.

I don't see what is so bad about the Murder Beam. It's nothing like the time-saving Mockball which was deemed legal..aren't you barking up the wrong tree?

Murder Beam does not = Space/Time Beam.

So for arcades they use MAME..and videos..and videos for consoles..so aren't they also relying on videos for records? I don't see your argument.

Lucid Faia

2005-02-08 02:37:05 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

I haven't played the game since my :55, and I have no desire to ever play or watch a video of the game again.

I don't see what is so bad about the Murder Beam. It's nothing like the time-saving Mockball which was deemed legal..aren't you barking up the wrong tree?

Murder Beam does not = Space/Time Beam.

So for arcades they use MAME..and videos..and videos for consoles..so aren't they also relying on videos for records? I don't see your argument.

I know what the Murder Beam is. When I was comparing it to those other two glitches, I wasn't talking about the ability to skip parts of the game, but simply how lame it is to use a tactic like that. Sorry, I should have elaborated that. Look at how it's used in the Mother Brain fight. Slowdown, graphical glitches, and effortless constant damage. I'm usually for glitches that aid a run but there's a line that needs to be drawn somewhere.

My posts, other than the Murder Beam part, were in response to Nate. I was saying that you can find TG performances all over the place if you know where to look, and explained why some people prefer to claim a TG record, rather than one somewhere else.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]I haven't played the game since my :55, and I have no desire to ever play or watch a video of the game again.

I don't see what is so bad about the Murder Beam.  It's nothing like the time-saving Mockball which was deemed legal..aren't you barking up the wrong tree?

Murder Beam does not = Space/Time Beam.

So for arcades they use MAME..and videos..and videos for consoles..so aren't they also relying on videos for records? I don't see your argument.[/quote]

I know what the Murder Beam is. When I was comparing it to those other two glitches, I wasn't talking about the ability to skip parts of the game, but simply how lame it is to use a tactic like that. Sorry, I should have elaborated that. Look at how it's used in the Mother Brain fight. Slowdown, graphical glitches, and effortless constant damage. I'm usually for glitches that aid a run but there's a line that needs to be drawn somewhere.

My posts, other than the Murder Beam part, were in response to Nate. I was saying that you can find TG performances all over the place if you know where to look, and explained why some people prefer to claim a TG record, rather than one somewhere else.

Lucid Faia

2005-02-08 02:43:23 pm

Quote from TSA:

I agree with nate's last point.

Same here, and I don't change my mind often.

Quote from TSA:

However, with my LA run - I finally ran into issues. I didn't do a LA run because of the two ruling differences. TG allowed save/quits on Link's Awakening for GB, but you couldn't use the THIEF trick. Fortunately, there is the DX version which has no rules, and hence I did that game as it fit onto TG and SDA.

Meh. I'm pretty sure they allowed the Thief trick, but we kept begging for an "official" ruling from someone rather than "It looks like the rules committee is leaning this way," and never got it. I don't think there's a handheld ref at the moment, which is why that board is somewhat neglected.

Quote from TSA:

That is something I notice over at TG, especially for the classic Zelda games. A lot of bad blood with some of the people. That's probably where this negative sentiment comes from. Hoarding "secrets". Like when a ref said I didn't know the mysterious of the flute warping.

Rolling Eyes

That was MKM, right? I think my very first post at TG was in response to that, telling him to shut up.

[quote="TSA"]I agree with nate's last point.[/quote]

Same here, and I don't change my mind often.

[quote="TSA"]However, with my LA run - I finally ran into issues.  I didn't do a LA run because of the two ruling differences.  TG allowed save/quits on Link's Awakening for GB, but you couldn't use the THIEF trick.  Fortunately, there is the DX version which has no rules, and hence I did that game as it fit onto TG and SDA.[/quote]

Meh. I'm pretty sure they allowed the Thief trick, but we kept begging for an "official" ruling from someone rather than "It looks like the rules committee is leaning this way," and never got it. I don't think there's a handheld ref at the moment, which is why that board is somewhat neglected.

[quote="TSA"]That is something I notice over at TG, especially for the classic Zelda games.  A lot of bad blood with some of the people.  That's probably where this negative sentiment comes from.  Hoarding "secrets".  Like when a ref said I didn't know the mysterious of the flute warping.

:roll: [/quote]

That was MKM, right? I think my very first post at TG was in response to that, telling him to shut up.