I was the one that mentionsed that he was only 10% done with the music Because that's what it say's on the first post. you don't beta test the music? (listen to it?)
It's not like the music will exactly glitch up, for the most part. I mean, there might be a couple times when something goes wrong and the game crashes, but I think you have bigger problems than the music not working at that point. Hey, could you release them separately in MIDI or MP3 files after the games out?
Quote from FirePhoenix0:
If there's nothing really new to discuss, it's okay to let the topic sink down until Acheron has an update or someone comes up with something new.
I typed that, then realized that I didn't quite know what he meant by 10% done. It attracted my attention after I had put that up, and Acheron doesn't want us to delete posts. Here - happy? I just put that little slash line thingy through it.
It's not like the music will exactly glitch up, for the most part. I mean, there might be a couple times when something goes wrong and the game crashes, but I think you have bigger problems than the music not working at that point. Hey, could you release them separately in MIDI or MP3 files after the games out?
MIDI or MP3? If he makes a midi first then yes. (LOL CONVERTING MIDI TO MP3) If he works directly into the ROM then you will have to do with a SPC. =)
Hey, could you release them separately in MIDI or MP3 files after the games out?
WTF? Are you crazy, BionicleGenius? It makes no sense to release the music files as MP3s or MIDIs, although MIDIs make a hell of a lot more sense in this case over MP3s. If he did release them, they would be in SPC format, which is the native SNES Music format. Converting SPCs into MIDIs is easy, but it makes the sound quality drop because MIDIs don't have custom-tailored instruments like SPCs do. But MP3s? Are you shitting me?
Sorry, I just had to go off at that one. It bothers me how much the kids don't know about SPC format.
Hey, could you release them separately in MIDI or MP3 files after the games out?
WTF? Are you crazy, BionicleGenius? It makes no sense to release the music files as MP3s or MIDIs, although MIDIs make a hell of a lot more sense in this case over MP3s. If he did release them, they would be in SPC format, which is the native SNES Music format. Converting SPCs into MIDIs is easy, but it makes the sound quality drop because MIDIs don't have custom-tailored instruments like SPCs do. But MP3s? Are you shitting me?
Sorry, I just had to go off at that one. It bothers me how much the kids don't know about SPC format.
What acheron said!
You can code the music in the game directly. But it is easier to compose in other format first to get it to sound good.
And you need a MP3 file to play it on a MP3 player. And MP3 is one of the biggest sound formats. In fact it makes more sense go around with MP3 files then MIDI files. <_<;
I don't have an MP3 player, and I know I don't know very much about sound files. I was suggesting it because I know a lot of people do have MP3s, and thought it'd be at least slightly considerate to them. MIDI files, however, can be opened with programs like noteworthy, so musical people who like to enjoy stuff like this (like me) could look at the actual music and take the full appreciation of it. I know this is only one side of the argument, and likely a bunch of you guys (or all; feel free to gang up on me ) disagree with me. MP3 would only make it portable. It doesn't really make a difference to me if he does it or not.
As to the SPC stuff, I hadn't heard about that before, so sorry everyone! Can windows media player play it, or is it easily converted and/or read by other programs?
I agree with Bioniclegenius, I think it would be cool to have Aegis MP3s. Perhaps Acheron86 could release both midi and MP3s.... Then we'd all be happy.
There's no point since it wouldn't have any difference in quality, AFAIK. I'm not a music file format expert but I don't think it matters in this case. If someone wanted to convert it that'd be fine, but I don't think I'll do it.
What I meant by the whole testing the music, he's just gotta make sure that it sounds good. That's really all the testing it requires, other than one or two tests to ensure the music got inserted properly.
There's no point since it wouldn't have any difference in quality, AFAIK. I'm not a music file format expert but I don't think it matters in this case. If someone wanted to convert it that'd be fine, but I don't think I'll do it.
My MP3 player can't run midis.
I use my phone for music though.
Midi uses instrument channel's, and how instruments sound can be a bit diffrenet on different hardware. MP3 store all needed data in the file. IIRC
Sorry if I'm really late to the party, but the reason I exploded on Bioniclegenius about MP3s is because generally they are much larger and can reach higher size files than that of more compressed, simpler formats like MIDI and SPC.
Quote from BiggestSchnoz:
I agree with Bioniclegenius, I think it would be cool to have Aegis MP3s. Perhaps Acheron86 could release both midi and MP3s.... Then we'd all be happy.
Better see if Acheron is good at remixes. :D
Quote from Acheron86:
What kind of MP3 player can't play midis?
If I'm not mistaken, G-Krys, I believe Acheron was talking about MP3 players for the computer, not for other hardware like cell phones.
Quote from BionicleGenius:
I don't have an MP3 player, and I know I don't know very much about sound files. I was suggesting it because I know a lot of people do have MP3s, and thought it'd be at least slightly considerate to them.
It's not a matter of being considerate to anyone; rather, it's a matter of compatibility of sound formats. I think it's safe to assume that nobody's going to want to go through the painful process of writing a really complicated song in MP3 format only to strip the flesh and blood from the music itself so that it can be turned into an SPC. But then again, who'm I to say?
Good tip for all the peeps here: there are many good SPC players for your computer on the internet... You just have to know where to look. I'd go for Winamp; it's a pretty memory-light music player that plays all kind of sound formats already (like MP3, MIDI, OGG, and the like,) AND accepts external .dlls for handling the more obscure formats (like SPC, GYM, GSF, NSF...) It's a pretty good all-around music player, and it works on my ME, so I ain't complaining. :-D If you don't want Winamp, though, then google "SPC Player." BTW, did you know ZSNES can rip SPCs?
Midi's are outdated in my opinion. Yes they are small but the sound quality is bad and they are not very compatible most music players.(hardware and software)
MP3's are the most universal and the size can be change easily, with some sound quality loss. To release music this is the best option.
SPC... I don't know much about them but from my experience they aren't very compatible with most music players. Better than midi's though! :P
Regardless, SPC is the format ripped SNES music comes in. It is always 65kb in size and includes compatibility for custom instruments. I think the downside is that there's not much in the way of software for writing it, so converting it from MIDIs is prolly the way to go.
And I've heard some pretty nice MIDIs in my lifetime. You must not Doom often; MIDI is the internal format for those tracks.
There's still some confusion to the process used in adding music to an SNES game. Let me clear it up.
SPC=proprietary format used in SNES. It is not a file type in the way some of you are thinking. You would in general not ever download and listen to an SPC unless you were really into ripping soundtracks directly from SNES games.
I am composing music in MIDI because it is an easy transition over to the SPC format (which I have to use to add music into the hack). MIDI is somewhat similar because both file types use channels and do not include the actual instrument samples in their files. In the same way, SM does not include actual instrument data in its songs; those are stored elsewhere within the ROM and are called by code to play the notes in the song. (This may not actually be technically accurate, but it's close enough for the sake of discussion.)
MP3 is totally irrelevant to all of this. It makes no sense for me to write music in MP3 because it would be more complicated and would still lose a great deal of quality in the transition over. I'm not even sure it's possible to convert a MIDI to an MP3, so it would likely be necessary to re-write the song in a different format that would be of no actual use to me personally.
Basically, the difference between MIDI and MP3 is that the former has a library of "instruments" whose frequency and note length are controlled with the contents of the file, whereas the latter actually defines the waveform for the entire song, then compresses it. From what I understand, SPC is very much like MIDI, except it reads the instruments from the ROM to avoid having to have a global library which might not entirely suit the needs of developers anyways. Therefore, making a MIDI which is transcribed into the ROM makes much more sense, since it actually contains the notes instead of the waveform.
Hint to everyone who wants to play .spc files on your computer, winamp is a free download, as is the plugin that lets you play that format.
I'm wondering though, if the sound library is in the ROM, how can the external player (winamp in my case) play the right sounds? I know they sound exactly like the original, so are the sounds included in the .spc file? And don't your MIDIs sound different in the game?
And while converting mp3 files to spc isn't very likely, is there any program that can convert spc into another sound format, like wav or mp3? I haven't been able to find one.
Well, Sleepy, when ZSNES makes an SPC rip from the rom, I'm pretty sure it knows the addresses of the instrument values and notes so that all is included when it makes the rip. It even bases the starting point of the SPC off of where you begin the rip. So, yes, instrument data is included in an SPC. Basically, the largest difference between MIDIs and SPCs is custom instruments; you can literally convert between one and the other, and the only thing you have to worry about is how it sounds with a different set of instruments (which isn't as bad converting MIDI to SPC over SPC to MIDI, because SPCs have the custom instruments.)
BTW, there are MIDI<->SPC converters out there, if you look hard enough. I know there's one on smwcentral.net.
I recorded from SM after getting a missile upgrade (via the emulator), the music started from the beginning. Later I opened the wave file in Audacity to clean it up, loop it, and have a fade-out at the end. Music Match Jukebox or Creative PlayCenter 2 can convert your files for portability/accessibility.
An SPC is a dump from the RAM associated with the SNES's sound chip, the SPC700. SPC players are actually emulators - as in they emulate the SPC700 chip. This is why SPC files are always 64k.
Well, Sleepy, when ZSNES makes an SPC rip from the rom, I'm pretty sure it knows the addresses of the instrument values and notes so that all is included when it makes the rip. It even bases the starting point of the SPC off of where you begin the rip. So, yes, instrument data is included in an SPC. Basically, the largest difference between MIDIs and SPCs is custom instruments; you can literally convert between one and the other, and the only thing you have to worry about is how it sounds with a different set of instruments (which isn't as bad converting MIDI to SPC over SPC to MIDI, because SPCs have the custom instruments.)
BTW, there are MIDI<->SPC converters out there, if you look hard enough. I know there's one on smwcentral.net.
Ok, thanks for explaining that. Looking to convert into any more common format (so I can convert that to mp3) while keeping the original sounds, I suspect MIDI isn't the best for that. Oh well, I'll keep looking I guess. And yeah, maybe discussion on audio file formats isn't too closely related to SM:Aegis :| But it has been answered now at least!
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
Quote from Acheron86:
SPC=proprietary format used in SNES. It is not a file type in the way some of you are thinking. You would in general not ever download and listen to an SPC unless you were really into ripping soundtracks directly from SNES games.
I am composing music in MIDI because it is an easy transition over to the SPC format (which I have to use to add music into the hack). MIDI is somewhat similar because both file types use channels and do not include the actual instrument samples in their files.
Errrrr....
Quote:
(This may not actually be technically accurate, but it's close enough for the sake of discussion.)
I'm not quite sure whether to let that slide or not. Let me go a step or two further real quick.
SPC is, strictly speaking, not a music format. It's basically code, the same way a ROM file is basically code. In fact, it's a LOT like a ROM. The real difference is that SPC is outputting sound, whereas the main output from a ROM file is video. You of course would not call a ROM file a video encoding nor think of a ROM as a video format - SPC is the same sort of thing. Of course, the SPC data is stored on the ROM to begin with. It's copied / translated from ROM to SPC various ways, it can change from game to game.
A few games have relatively oddball code or methods of using the SPC. In short, they don't load the entire song to the SPC at once, and so the SPC never contains an entire song. These games you can't simply rip the SPC to play the song in the game. I'm not going into this because Super Metroid is not one of those games, but it's a good example of how SPC is primarily code to handle audio, not audio data itself.
Now then. You know how games can use largely the same engine with maybe minor tweaks here and there but you can generally recognize everything? (hint: GBA metroids) Some companies did the same thing for the SPC, and so there are sort of unofficial formats for their music data. Nintendo's own SPC engine is fairly widely called N-SPC, and can be seen in Super Mario World, Super Metroid, LttP, and a number of other first party games. With various tweaks here and there from game to game. The data for N-SPC *can* be called a music format, and it's actually a pretty impressive and powerful music format all things considered. But the basics of it are this:
Break the music apart into seperate sections (makes it possible to reuse common and repeating parts) Break each section up into seperate channels (maximum of 8 used at a time, but this leaves no room for sound effects) Each channel tells what instrument number to use, then what note to play and for how long (and also a number of other features N-SPC has). One main channel assumably tells tempo, song volume, and stuff like that throughout the song (in addition to normal channel stuff).
The instruments are defined by sound samples (basically compressed .wav files), and ADSR and looping data. Which is completely independent of the music format outlined above.
Quote:
In the same way, SM does not include actual instrument data in its songs; those are stored elsewhere within the ROM and are called by code to play the notes in the song.
This would be smart. Too smart for Super Metroid. The instrument data is included with the songs actually - this means if you use the same instruments in two different songs you will have to store the instrument data TWICE in the rom. Sigh. (admittedly, it's possible that no instrument is used twice - I don't have a list of them all - in which case storing the instruments with the songs is more efficient) This is more about the packaging inside the ROM than how the SPC handles it, though. Basically, in the ROM, each song is one large package. Each package has groups of data and where they go in the SPC. Instruments and note data are included in the same package, but different groups of data - they're completely independent on the SPC side of things.
Now, let's go to a comparison with common computer music formats... midi and mp3 (or wav) are the most commonly thought of so I'll start with those. Midi files don't have any sound data built into them, they're mostly note data. Sheet music is a perfect analogy for them - when a computer gets a midi file all it sees is sheet music, and probably the name of an instrument that's supposed to play the sheet music. Which means it's up to every individual computer to decide what a piano is supposed to sound like. Two people on different computers can listen to the same midi and hear drastically different things. Wav files are literally waves (and mp3 files are compressed wav files). It's basically the exact instructions sent to the speakers or headphones to cause the sound for the entire song. There's no interpreting it, just uncompress the instructions and feed them to the output, so everyone hears the same thing. Of course, as this data is around 8,000 (low quality mono) to 88,000 (high quality stereo) values per second, it can be HUGE. Neither format is very close - a better format to compare N-SPC with would be a tracker format (also called module files. Or some mix of the two). Unfortunately these formats are largely neglected and many people don't know about them. :/ There's also a number of different tracker formats... Personally I've seen mostly .mod, .it, and .xm. These are basically midi files that have their own instrument samples to use, instead of letting the computer decide what the instrument should sound like. They produce the same sound for everyone and aren't much larger than normal midi files (still drastically smaller than wav or mp3 files).
midi, N-SPC, and tracker files are decently close to eachother and could be translated freely from one to the other (although translating to midi will lose the instrument sampling in N-SPC and tracker files). The problem is that N-SPC is a very specialized format (AND it changes slightly from game to game) so nobody's made and publicized any good tools for it yet. Someone has made a SPC --> Midi converter, which I've personally used often to get video game music. I'm assuming it works by emulating the SPC, recording the keys it plays and estimating the note from the frequency of the output or something. A midi --> SPC converter would only be able to output to SPC formats it's specifically programmed for. There might be programs here and there for porting midis to specific games, and I *think* there's a custom SPC engine with a converter for it too (which I think is commonly used in Super Mario World hacks? Not my forte, sorry, feel free to correct me if you know more about this). Although, since the formats are decently close to eachother, it's also possible to convert a song from one to another by hand. Tedious, but feasible.
All of those output to the speakers though, and as I mentioned wav is basically a recording of the instructions to the speakers. Probably almost EVERYONE'S computer here can record the output from any music as wav with just the programs already installed, it's more a matter of figuring out how. And unless you're running a custom OS most people haven't heard of I'm sure there's a program out there to encode it to a decently sized mp3. So yes, you can convert anything to mp3.
Well. That wasn't quick at all. But I think I've covered everything anyone might ask about music? Maybe not in-depth but enough for a basic understanding.
Color me embarrassed. I never claimed to be an expert, I was mostly just trying to explain why mp3s made no sense. That is some new information for me, though.
