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silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-24 10:49:02 am
Quote:
Can you get from Training Chamber to SF without Gravity Boost if you have PBs?


I think that you need the spider ball to do this but I'm not sure.
Skreemaster
2005-05-24 10:51:26 am
I'll be back. Maybe...
I know you can get to the missile without the spider ball; it's in the wiki. From there it shouldn't be too difficult to get to the door using some hybrid dash off the Luminoth Lore below... or something, anyway.
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-24 10:56:37 am
Quote from Skreemaster:
I know you can get to the missile without the spider ball; it's in the wiki. From there it shouldn't be too difficult to get to the door using some hybrid dash off the Luminoth Lore below... or something, anyway.


It's from the wiki :



Quick way to activate the statue without using the spider ball.

    - space jump onto the slope of the Spider Ball track on the left side of the statue
    - space jump to the platform.

Notes :

    Gravity Boost needed.

Yes you're right skreemaster, we could probably reach the PB door using a dash or something like that but we must be able to activate the statue without spider ball and grav. boost.
Skreemaster
2005-05-24 11:00:36 am
I'll be back. Maybe...
Curses! Perhaps there is some way to get up there without... but it doesn't really matter; you could still break into Sanctuary via Agon. It'd just take a bit longer. Of course, that is assuming you can get back up Hydrodynamo Station after getting the key, which is not particularly likely.
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-24 11:05:16 am
A 3BSJ could allow us to activate the statue without grav boost. Finding a way to activate the statue without grav.boost is better than trying to solve hydrodynamo without grav. boost...
Skreemaster
2005-05-24 11:10:11 am
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Where do you come out after breaking in... it's Caretaker's room, isn't it. In which case... you can go to Main Reactor then get the Spider Ball as normal.

In Echoes, is there any foolishness about having to collect the main PBs rather than an expansion, like in Prime with the Artifact of Warrior?
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-24 11:15:17 am
Quote:
In Echoes, is there any foolishness about having to collect the main PBs rather than an expansion, like in Prime with the Artifact of Warrior?


Yes, the dark oasis sky temple key doesn't appear until you get the main power bomb :(
So you can't beat the game without taking the main PB.
Skreemaster
2005-05-24 11:25:39 am
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Curses! No % decrease!..
At least we've got more PBs instead of Gravity, which is more helpful in E. Ing 2 and various places in Sanctuary. Oh, what happens if you PB Spider Guardian?
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-24 11:31:02 am
Quote from Skreemaster:
Curses! No % decrease!..
At least we've got more PBs instead of Gravity, which is more helpful in E. Ing 2 and various places in Sanctuary. Oh, what happens if you PB Spider Guardian?


Yeah it's a no decrease...but a step forward to skip the dark suit without e-tanks. I think that boost guardian without dark suit is no longer a problem since you can kill him instantly with a PB :D

Now the only obstacle is quadraxis.

If you PB the spider guardian, I heard that he leaves the room without  leaving behind him the spider ball. So you're stuck if you do this.
XtraX
2005-05-24 11:31:44 am
I've done that in my game with Gravity boost.. Just jump on the Spider Ball track and from there up to the platform with the morph ball slot. Activate it and the platform should move. There are some things you can stand on (like the Spider Ball track left...or right to the morph ball slot). From there you can easily jump to the PB-door.

In Caretakers room you normally have to solve a Spider ball puzzle to get a missile there. There are these moving things which can throw you away from the Spider Ball puzzle....uh, I don't know how to explain that.
You can stand on these things. So jump on them,jump on the next thing and from there you can jump to the door.
Skreemaster
2005-05-24 11:54:19 am
I'll be back. Maybe...
Quadraxis drops lots of Ultra Energy in its first mode... but the second and third will just have to be done with all haste. Perhaps we ought to resume the research into killing all the antennae on the head in one round... how can you get health during the later stages? I know Dark Quads appear, so perhaps you could kill them for health? You'd need quite a few though, but you could probably just do it. Of course, then you'd need to get quickly to Temple Security Station before you die, but there is energy after it dies... so there should be enough.
SkippyJr
2005-05-24 05:01:05 pm
Secret World based GravBoost skip has already been solved (but not tried).  If your going to use a SW to get an early PB, why not fully emmerse yourself in the Dark Side? Here it is (ignore HydroDynamo Shaft stuff, that was before kip solved it).  The route is at the bottom of the post.  You have to enter Sanc. Fort. early and Dark Visorless. If you want to use XtraX's early PB expansion, you can enter Sanc. Fort. from Agon and crawl from the MiniGyro SW to Vault (which is far easier to do).  The three underwater keys are still an issue because of impared movements underwater.  Perhaps they can be reached through the wall, just as this new early PB. For completeness, Here are the current obsitcles for a SW-assisted game.

I'll shuddup about SW stuff unless the subject comes up again.  (Question: how does Dark Samus 1 like the taste of a Power Bomb?)
graveworm
2005-05-24 05:11:30 pm
Quote from XtraX:
the three Sky Temple keys do appear and are all possible without using the 3rd gravity boost jump( the space jump works normal like you would be on land if you have the light suit. You still can't SA underwater though.) The Battleground key does appear,too. I haven't checked the other keys though.
Skreemaster
2005-05-24 05:27:57 pm
I'll be back. Maybe...
If I have time I shall draw out a huge flow diagram of every possible route. However, that would take a very long time.

Edit: I've found a nice tool hidden deep in Office that makes it easier. Now I first add the items, major events and bosses, and then draw thousands of lines between them. It will be so much fun... I can't wait!
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-25 09:28:58 am
I confirm it : the yellow door in the dark version of hydrodynamo can  be acceeded without raising the pillar :D
I think that now, the grav. boost is skipped via this trick discovered by Xtrax but not for low % since a % percent is added for the expansion.
If we could beat quadraxis with no E-tanks and without dark suit, (boost guardian is solved because you can instantly kill him with a PB), we could skip the dark suit.
But if you skip the dark suit and the grav.boost with this trick, you blow only 1%.
Skreemaster
2005-05-25 09:32:26 am
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You still get PBs early, so you can do other useful things with them. What precisely can you actually do with early PBs?
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-25 09:43:57 am
I know that you can reach sanctuary fortress, get echo visor, killing quadraxis, get screw attack, get light suit without killing chykka using the early PBs.

I probably forgot several possibilities.
XtraX
2005-05-25 09:52:27 am
I think you can get Sunburst before going to Sanc.! OMG!!1

You can go to Sanc before Torvus via the Agon elevator.
You can go to Sanc via the elevator in Torvus (might need Gravity Boost).
You can get some items early(like the Power Bomb Tank in Great Bridge/Torvus)
You should be able to skip Gravity Boost(not for low %)
You can pwnz Boost Guardian
You can do the things you can do with the early non-SW PBTanks in Sanc Rolling Eyes
You can think about faster routes for Speed runs. (I dunno if there is a faster route at all)
Skreemaster
2005-05-25 09:53:22 am
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What are the current obstacles to a Dark Visor skip?
Mr. Aran
2005-05-25 09:56:13 am
everybody knows it's true
That one room after the great temple.
Skreemaster
2005-05-25 10:03:09 am
I'll be back. Maybe...
Sacred Bridge, you mean?
Can't you bomb jump up the pipe you come down in?

... Why do you need to go through there anyway: it leads to GFMC Compound and you could get there through Grand Windchamber if you had PBs. Of course, this would prevent a Super Missile skip, but Supers are far more useful than Dark Visor. Except against Pirate Commandos, of course.

Edit: In my great Diagram, should I put in minor SBs like early Missiles in Temple Assembly Site?

Just noticed... there are 7777 posts in the Echoes forum now.
XtraX
2005-05-25 10:15:38 am
I think its possible to get up Sacred Bridge. You can Boost up there pretty high(you need ~ size of the morph ball more to climb it). You can get the same height if you 3bj up there. A combination of both could maybe do it.

The problem: It has no use... One of the very first rooms in Sanctuary requires Dark Visor/Seekers. You don't have to do it if you get an early SW-PB. With that you can skip both these Dark Visor "puzzles.
The problem: There is no friggin way to skip the Dark Visor. Ever heard of Sky Temple keys? Wink  You can't damage the key holders without Dark Visor. Skipping the Sky Temple keys would solve this problem of course......
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-25 10:50:04 am
This early PB could useful in speedruns : after getting the light beam, return to temple assembly site and wallcrawl to get the early PB. After getting the PBs, return to Agon and take the elevator that leads to sanctuary fortress.

Once in sanctuary fortress, I don't know what we could do...
Skreemaster
2005-05-25 01:42:17 pm
I'll be back. Maybe...
Skipping the Sky Temple keys would be nice. It would allow a Light Suit skip, even. Of course, that would make E. Ing more difficult, but compared to such a big skip that is of little concern, especially considering the Ultra Energy from the tentacles and the Inglets in the second round.

Of course, it's not going to happen unless someone can find a Secret World in there, and even then it's doubtful.
silent (((((echo)))))
2005-05-25 02:04:46 pm
Quote:
Of course, it's not going to happen unless someone can find a Secret World in there


There is also a secret world in skytemple gateway.

I found a minor speed trick that save 2 secs : right after killing grapple guerdian, go where the grapple beam pick up appears, you will  get it instantly after the cutscene.
It's like wave beam in Prime 1.