Speed tricks topic

2005-05-03 05:31:50 pm

Bananas GOOD, Kremlings BAD

With the method I use to do the single/double/triple BSJ (backing up into a wall), even when the Instant Unmorph occurs, and even when I try different timing with the X and B buttons, the jump never works if my second bomb is too high.

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-06 06:40:28 am

Watch this video : a possible aerie speed trick

http://www.zippyvideos.com/70263582242285.html

It's echo visor room. I tried to reach the echo visor ledge without taking the dark portal. I used a single BSJ followed by a screw attack wall collision to earn more height but I missed.. A double BSJ can probably allow us to reach the ledge but I can't do the double BSJ :(

Can anyone try to reach the ledge using a 2 or 3BSJ ?

XtraX

2005-05-06 02:02:17 pm

Hmm... I tried to play through the game on Hard mode( late,I know...),but died a few times against Boosty. So I thought about trying to skip boost ball;) I haven't done anything new, but meh..

There are currently three things which can't be done without boost,am I right?

The first thing would be the Dark Torvus key 1(I think), the second thing getting into Sf without boost and,most importantly, the Spider Guardian.

The Dark Torvus key seems quite possible. If you enter the room with the key, there is a black stone with some red...points you can stand on(on the right side of the room). You can almost Space Jump to the key( but only almost ;) ). I think a kip dash on the Light beacon could do it. (Use the second jump to jump into the key). I have never been able to kip-dash at all, so I can't do it...

Getting into SF without Boost Ball could be impossible.
There are 2(3) ways how you could do it:
-kill the PBGuardian without Spider Ball
-manipulate the spinner in the first room in sf
(-skip the first portal...well...you would have boost if you do so.....)

Oh,The first is btw impossible >_>

I don't know if you can manipulate the spinner in sf... I have tried 15 minutes( Rolling Eyes

) or so and,of course,haven't done it yet. The thing is: I have never moved a spinner without boost in both prime games. I don't know exactly *how* it works.

I often moved the "door" a little bit with pressing down and left after I got stuck in the spinner. The problem: The morphball always stopped moving after 2 or so seconds. And the "door" does always instantly close if you bomb yourself out of the boost-thing. So you have to open the "door" in one try. Or in other words: could be impossible.

Then there is the Spider Guardian. More impossibleness.
( Here are screenis of the 4 "parts, btw: http://www.metroid2002.com/prime2/index.php/Spider_Guardian )

The first part isn't different at all.

The second part is impossible...

Well..the first thing you should do is try to damage him before he falls down the Spider ball track on the way from part one to part two. This could be impossible though. If it is possible, dbj up on the block (like here in Prime 1: http://www.metroid2002.com/without_boost_life_grove_tunnel.php . Ti could be impossible in that spot in prime 2 though). Now simply go to the bomb slot and bomb it.

If you can't damage Spidey before falling down, do a weird (and most likely impossible) bomb jump on the block which is in the exact same height as the place you come from. Damage Spidey from here. Now do the (maybe impossible) dbj up to the block above you and go to the bomb slot like in the way above.

Now there is the probably most impossible thing: You have to somehow bomb jump up the boost rail. I'm pretty sure no bomb jump can do this.
The only ways I see this being possible is to bomb jump as high as possible and, at the peak of the bomb jump, get hit by Spidey which hopefully boosts you up high enough.

(I know that people were somehow able to escape the Spider Guardian with bombing up the Spider Ball track in part 3-> 4 because the spider ball tracks are somehow gliched(?). I don't know how. This might help here. Anyone cares to explain?)

Now let's go to part three. YOu could say it's less impossible,but it still might be impossible Rolling Eyes

At first,try again to damage Spidey on the way form part two to three.
If you did it( if it's possible), do the (maybe impossible) bomb jump up to the block which is in the same height as where you come from. (It might be possible to just roll there if you are fast... I haven't tested that yet. EDIT: Tried it, I was able to just roll on the block,but fall down on the other side. But I think this is possible. That means that the entire part 3 might be possible now!).
From there do a laddered bomb jump up to the block with three red points
on the Spider Guardian page @ m2k2. If you haven't damaged Spidey at the start of part three, you can do it here. Now just bomb the bomb slot.
Do a 3bj/TRHbj up to the ledge above you. go to part 4.

Part 4: If you found ways to make the impossible things possible and did get up to this part without using boost, yo probably don't want to die. You really don't want to.

Uh, I hope that somehow helped Rolling Eyes

Now count how often I said "impossible".

@silent (((((echo))))): Nice speedtrick, I really think it does work with Dbj/3bj. I might try that.

Hmm... I tried to play through the game on Hard mode( late,I know...),but died a few times against Boosty. So I thought about trying to skip boost ball;) I haven't done anything new, but meh..

There are currently three things which can't be done without boost,am I right?

The first thing would be the Dark Torvus key 1(I think), the second thing getting into Sf without boost and,most importantly, the Spider Guardian.

The Dark Torvus key seems quite possible. If you enter the room with the key, there is a black stone with some red...points you can stand on(on the right side of the room). You can almost Space Jump to the key( but only almost ;) ). I think a kip dash on the Light beacon could do it. (Use the second jump to jump into the key). I have never been able to kip-dash at all, so I can't do it...

Getting into SF without Boost Ball could be impossible.
There are 2(3) ways how you could do it:
-kill the PBGuardian without Spider Ball
-manipulate the spinner in the first room in sf
(-skip the first portal...well...you would have boost if you do so.....)

Oh,The first is btw impossible >_>

I don't know if you can manipulate the spinner in sf... I have tried 15 minutes( :roll: ) or so and,of course,haven't done it yet. The thing is: I have never moved a spinner without boost in both prime games. I don't know exactly *how* it works.

I often moved the "door" a little bit with pressing down and left after I got stuck in the spinner. The problem: The morphball always stopped moving after 2 or so seconds. And the "door" does always instantly close if you bomb yourself out of the boost-thing. So you have to open the "door" in one try. Or in other words: could be impossible.

Then there is the Spider Guardian. More impossibleness.
( Here are screenis of the 4 "parts, btw: http://www.metroid2002.com/prime2/index.php/Spider_Guardian )

The first part isn't different at all.

The second part is impossible...

Well..the first thing you should do is try to damage him before he falls down the Spider ball track on the way from part one to part two. This could be impossible though. If it is possible, dbj up on the block (like here in Prime 1: http://www.metroid2002.com/without_boost_life_grove_tunnel.php . Ti could be impossible in that spot in prime 2 though). Now simply go to the bomb slot and bomb it.

If you can't damage Spidey before falling down, do a weird (and most likely impossible) bomb jump on the block which is in the exact same height as the place you come from. Damage Spidey from here. Now do  the (maybe impossible) dbj up to the block above you and go to the bomb slot like in the way above.

Now there is the probably most impossible thing: You have to somehow bomb jump up the boost rail. I'm pretty sure no bomb jump can do this. 
The only ways I see this being possible is to bomb jump as high as possible and, at the peak of the bomb jump, get hit by Spidey which hopefully boosts you up high enough.

(I know that people were somehow able to escape the Spider Guardian with bombing up the Spider Ball track in part 3-> 4 because the spider ball tracks are somehow gliched(?). I don't know how. This might help here. Anyone cares to explain?)

Now let's go to part three. YOu could say it's less impossible,but it still might be impossible :roll:

At first,try again to damage Spidey on the way form part two to three.
If you did it( if it's possible), do the (maybe impossible) bomb jump up to the block which is in the same height as where you come from. (It might be possible to just roll there if you are fast...  I haven't tested that yet. EDIT: Tried it, I was able to just roll on the block,but fall down on the other side. But I think this is possible. That means that the entire part 3 might be possible now!).
From there do a laddered bomb jump up to the block with three red points 
on the Spider Guardian page @ m2k2. If you haven't damaged Spidey at the start of part three, you can do it here. Now just bomb the bomb slot. 
Do a 3bj/TRHbj up to the ledge above you. go to part 4.

Part 4: If you found ways to make the impossible things possible and did get up to this part without using boost, yo probably don't want to die. You really don't want to.

Uh, I hope that somehow helped  :roll: 
Now count how often I said "impossible".

@silent (((((echo))))): Nice speedtrick, I really think it does work with Dbj/3bj. I might try that.

SkippyJr

2005-05-06 03:02:08 pm

There are other places where BoostBall is required: obtaining Seeker Missiles, obtaining Screw Attack, and breaking through the glass en route to collect Echo Visor. One of the spinners in the Seeker puzzle is completely spinnable without BoostBall, but the other three are not. (At one time there was a rumor that Matt collected Seekers w/o Boost, but after much testing there was a consensus that this rumor was false.) The spinner opening up Sanctuary Fortress has been similarly shown to not be spinable enough. With the determinism of the SBers, there may yet be ways found to glitch the spinners.

XtraX

2005-05-06 03:07:45 pm

oh, I thought Matt did get Seekers w/o Boost and forgot about the Screw Attack Crying or Very sad

You don't have to break through the glass if you skip Echo Visor,do you?

Mr. Aran

2005-05-06 03:52:14 pm

everybody knows it's true

nope

bartendorsparky

2005-05-06 08:59:00 pm

always move fast

about spider guardian, you can indeed damage it enough, in each phase, without ever falling in the halfpipes, but (as of now) it is impossible to get past...the second part i believe, where you must boost up to escape, which is afaik the only thing stopping it.

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-07 05:05:47 am

Killing power guardian without spider ball would be the best solution (But I think that it will be never possible). Killing him without spider ball let us fighting power guardian right after Alpha Blogg.

And the dark Torvus key seems to be possible : In fact, using kip dash is difficult on this place because a wall in the right side of the room bothers your dash. The kip dash in the light beacon isn't the best solution. there is probably a best idea: Have you seen the floating ennemies in this room (there are 3)? Maybe we can kill them to make them drop items. After that, we can use charge beam to move these items and perform a kip dash on these items.
The kip dash would be perfect :D .

If we could pick up that key without boost ball. We would be able to pich up dark visor without boostball. The dark visor could be useful against boost guardian since you can lock him while he is in his puddle form. That makes the battle easier :D

XtraX

2005-05-07 05:30:52 am

You can lock on Boost Guardian when his is in his puddle form with Dark Visor? Can you damage him this way? That would be cool...

I thought the wall wouldn't stop you when trying to kip-dash to the key. Maybe the door would work? (You would have to release R(L?) to jump back into the key with the second jump)

Vault sucks btw. I tried monjumping to get the SA from above, but it's impossible. You have to manipulate the spinners. Stupid spinners....

@Sparky: You can do that? That means Spidey might be killable w/o Boost. Now someone has to find how to manipulate all the stupid spinners...

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-07 05:56:47 am

dark torvus key : a falling BSJ (the technique needed to bypass grand abyss) can probably do it. We can start the falling BSJ from the ledge which is in front of the key. Someone should try this, I can't do the falling BSJ :(

EDIT : I made 2 vids of trying to pick up torvus key without boost ball :

first method : http://www.zippyvideos.com/2814001246065.html

second method : http://www.zippyvideos.com/26009811246075.html

Another crazy trick : landing site ghetto jump : I don't know if this trick has been found. This trick is probably useless. At the very beggining of the game, it allows us to acceed to landing site upper door. But when you do that, you are stopped by a seeker door and a super missile door. Maybe this trick can allow us to skip the first portal !

Here's the vid : http://www.zippyvideos.com/146592308246375.html

XtraX

2005-05-09 11:50:59 am

Dunno if anyone has tested it before,but I tried to get the Sky Temple keys without Gravity Boost (with AR). Skippy had some theories that it would be possible,but it looks like no one has tried it.

So I tried it and found out that you can normally run/Space Jump in the Dark water.... Yeah... It's possible to get the Dark oasis/ Dungeon/ Poisionous Bog key with simple Space Jumping.

Well...about the Dungeon key, I don't know if it's necessary,but you might have to enter the Dark Portal there in the Light version of the room. To get to the Dark Portal, you have to bomb a bomb slot in the water. You can get there by Underwater dashing.

I think climbing Hydrodynamo Station has been solved...(description/vid would be nice btw^^) So the only thing which hasn't been solved is the stupid Dark Torvus key. (Which btw does appear if I moonjump to the portal... someone said it doesn't in another thread ;) )

Now gogo grab the key Wink

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-09 01:29:13 pm

Quote:

but it looks like no one has tried it.

I didn't try it. Yes gravity boost skip is very near :D
The dark torvus key can probably be grabbed using infinite bomb jump... I don't know if it's possible. Too bad, gravity boost skip will be useless in speed runs

Just a little speed trick in biostorage station, I don't know if this trick has already been discovered. I don't know which method is faster.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/63955841254015.html

http://www.zippyvideos.com/91721742254005.html

kip

2005-05-09 02:30:15 pm

well, I guess this is as good a time as any to lay it all out and hope something happens. This is about the closest I got a week ago:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/hydrokey_attempt.avi

I believe a 3bj would get the height, but I can't avoid hitting my head on the low ceiling during the first jump. So I left out the last bomb, and even with that "2bj" you will hit your head unless you do what I do and move to the left really early.

I have another idea but it's a bit on the extreme side, so I hope it doesn't come to that. It would be doing the aforementioned 3bj and then using the L/R move/underwater dash right after the unmorph to get out from the ceiling before you hit your head. I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't work either though, the ceiling is just very low to be doing a 3bj (yet you apparently need the added height from starting on that small pipe to get to the key).

I know sparky has tried some stuff for getting the key before, but I'm not sure what. GL to anyone who tries.

well, I guess this is as good a time as any to lay it all out and hope something happens. This is about the closest I got a week ago:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/hydrokey_attempt.avi

I believe a 3bj would get the height, but I can't avoid hitting my head on the low ceiling during the first jump. So I left out the last bomb, and even with that "2bj" you will hit your head unless you do what I do and move to the left really early.

I have another idea but it's a bit on the extreme side, so I hope it doesn't come to that. It would be doing the aforementioned 3bj and then using the L/R move/underwater dash right after the unmorph to get out from the ceiling before you hit your head. I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't work either though, the ceiling is just very low to be doing a 3bj (yet you apparently need the added height from starting on that small pipe to get to the key).

I know sparky has tried some stuff for getting the key before, but I'm not sure what. GL to anyone who tries.

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-09 02:37:48 pm

wow kip! A little more height and you can skip the gravity boost!
Shocked

I think that your extreme idea (underwater dash right after the unmorph) could probably work to get this key without the grav. boost.

XtraX

2005-05-09 03:10:48 pm

I dunno if it's anything new, but I think that bomb jumping a little bit in front of a wall and at the peak of the bomb jump press back (-> towards the wall) makes you have an instant unmorph. The problem is: I only seem to be able to jump after a single Bomb jump after doing this....

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-12 01:18:21 pm

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/mp2/HydrodynamoShaft_2.avi

Look at this vid, sparky posted this video 5 months ago. He uses a infinite bomb jump to try to get the torvus key without gravity boost. Maybe we can get an instant unmorph after this infinite bomb jump and underwater dash to the key :)

But if we can't solve hydrodynamo without grav. boost, getting that key is useless :(

kip

2005-05-12 05:35:18 pm

i've had that on my comp but i guess i forgot about it.

it's a good idea (probably would work), but i couldn't get the game to let me jump after the unmorph.

ShadowJedi

2005-05-13 03:08:37 am

I'm just throwing out wild ideas here, but has anyone tried the difference between 3bj and THRbj when instant-unmorphing?

kip

2005-05-13 03:36:28 am

The game doesn't let you jump after a trhbj (in water or out). Maybe there's some variation that could be put on it to get the game to let you jump, I don't know.

One thing I haven't tried whenever I've messed around with no grav is using boost. I don't see how it could help, but my no grav file in lower Torvus doesn't have it. Since boost is still a required item, it wouldn't be bad to depend on it for the no grav solution.. but that's assuming there's something that can even be done with it.

tjp7154

2005-05-13 05:12:16 am

Bananas GOOD, Kremlings BAD

I'm thinking that maybe you could combine the infinite bomb jump with a laddered form of the TRHbj...

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-13 01:20:23 pm

Quote:

One thing I haven't tried whenever I've messed around with no grav is using boost

If boost works, maybe we could use it to solve hydrodynamo without grav. boost?

EDIT : I solved hydrodynamo lowest part without gravity boost.

Here's the vid :

http://www.zippyvideos.com/145156582268165.html

Perform a 3bj followed by an unmorph.
There is a blogg in this room, I wonder if this blogg can be useful to reach the top of hydrodynamo.
I tried to solve the middle part but I failed. A BSJ followed by an underwater dash could probably do it. Here's the vid :

hydrodynamo middle part attempt.avi

carnivore

2005-05-13 08:25:42 pm

kips gotten much further i think

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/hydrodynamo_station.avi

to bad the videos gone lol.

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-14 07:04:45 am

In any% speed run, what is the fastest "sky temple keys collecting" route?
I think that my route is very bad Crying or Very sad

kip

2005-05-14 07:09:43 am

Latest stupid idea:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/hydrokey_attempt2.avi

There is one way I can see this working, and that's if the height of a bs jump (1st jump) isn't increased by unmorphing too soon after the last bomb. In other words, I can see it maybe working if I milk the last bomb for every bit of height before unmorphing, and if that doesn't decrease the height of my bs jump. If you watch the vid, it looks like I unmorph pretty much the instant the last bomb hits, so I don't know if I even got height from it. It's hard to see anything because of the boost.

Just curious if anyone knows (for sure) if that's true or not, about whether the last bomb/bs jump height is related.

I'll try a bit more tomorrow or something, but right now I'm not even sure that boost gives height.

XtraX

2005-05-14 08:41:09 am

whoa,that was very close! I hope your idea works...

Here is a little Speed Trick in Polluted Mire (Dark Torvus): Jump on the third platform and do a single bomb bsj there to get to the Dark Beam door faster.

And just an insane, maybe humanly impossible theory towards skipping Seekers (and maybe saving some time in Speed runs): I think after shooting a missile you can only
-wait
-change beams
-press a and after that press y
-morph and unmorph
to shoot another missile.

All these things take way too long for destroying Seeker doors without Seeker missiles. Well,one thing can actually be done pretty fast: morphing and unmorphing. Just get a instant morph followed by a instant unmorph. This means that you can theoretically fire missiles way faster if you abuse this.
The problem is: I don't know if it's fast enough and (maybe an even bigger problem):it would be pretty hard to do this to destroy all the seeker doors, wouldn't it? Getting instant morphes and unmorphes a few times in a row while shooting missiles would be ....hard...

whoa,that was very close! I hope your idea works...

Here is a little Speed Trick in Polluted Mire (Dark Torvus): Jump on the third platform and do a single bomb bsj there to get to the Dark Beam door faster.

And just an insane, maybe humanly impossible theory towards skipping Seekers (and maybe saving some time in Speed runs): I think after shooting a missile you can only 
-wait 
-change beams
-press a and after that press y
-morph and unmorph
to shoot another missile.

All these things take way too long for destroying Seeker doors without Seeker missiles. Well,one thing can actually be done pretty fast: morphing and unmorphing. Just get a instant morph followed by a instant unmorph. This means that you can theoretically fire missiles way faster if you abuse this.
 The problem is: I don't know if it's fast enough and (maybe an even bigger problem):it would be pretty hard to do this to destroy all the seeker doors, wouldn't it? Getting instant morphes and unmorphes a few times in a row while shooting missiles would be ....hard...