Speed tricks topic

2005-04-15 04:22:02 pm

Quote from kip:

I don't know why I'm still trying when I have no intention of doing a 21% (since it's not the real lowest).

I'm not 100% up to date with it, but AFAIK sw grapple skip currently requires floating, so this way is almost certainly better no matter how hard it is.

In fact if this works IIRC we're down to only a single skip now (emerald) that needs a SW float, and it may be possible to refine that skip. This is all speaking from a sw-skips-are-legal point of view, of course. Skipping grapple would mean that 21% could make it onto the SDA if someone was prepared to run it (not me this time.)

<EDIT>got it now, basically by watching the video more closely. I was under the impression that any instant unmorph would do, but it seems the position you roll off at and the precise time at which you unmorph do make a difference for some weird reason.

For me holding L seems to give a lot more distance, I couldn't make it without, but that might just have been randomness. I still have better consistency with the dash though.</EDIT>

[quote="kip"]I don't know why I'm still trying when I have no intention of doing a 21% (since it's not the real lowest).[/quote]

I'm not 100% up to date with it, but AFAIK sw grapple skip currently requires floating, so this way is almost certainly better no matter how hard it is.

In fact if this works IIRC we're down to only a single skip now (emerald) that needs a SW float, and it may be possible to refine that skip. This is all speaking from a sw-skips-are-legal point of view, of course. Skipping grapple would mean that 21% could make it onto the SDA if someone was prepared to run it (not me this time.)

<EDIT>got it now, basically by watching the video more closely. I was under the impression that any instant unmorph would do, but it seems the position you roll off at and the precise time at which you unmorph do make a difference for some weird reason.

For me holding L seems to give a lot more distance, I couldn't make it without, but that might just have been randomness. I still have better consistency with the dash though.</EDIT>

kip

2005-04-16 12:26:02 am

well I can't do it again, and I don't know why. I've bumped the robot hundreds of times, but I seemed to make it easy in the video for some reason. I know it's speed driven; the robot begins to fly up before you even reach it, but I've been as fast/faster than the video since then.

And I've been trying everything I can think of to change the move slightly and see if anything helps (like hitting B twice really quick after the unmorph and still being able to use the second jump). It'd be easy if you could do this thing in a normal space jump, but I guess you need the unmorph.

tomatobob

2005-04-16 07:01:27 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Yeah, you definitley need the unmorph, there's just something with the timing that makes you jump really high like when you Screw Attack, but wait a while after a jump and descend you get to jump as high as you originally SA'd.

Isn't the SA somehow though of by thae came as a Morph Ball? If it is, the game might somehow think you're performing a wierd form of Screw Attack instead of Space Jump since it came out of a Morph Ball mode... I don't know really it's just some random things I just came up with...

kip

2005-04-17 03:57:14 am

I'm going to chill on this for a while.. I need to get back to working on the section and I have other things to do. I've spent 20+ hours trying to do it a second time. Unless we find out how it works or find an easier way, I doubt anyone is going to want to use it in a speed run or over the SW method (assuming the SW trip is easy, just that it takes hours because of the floating).

I asked sparky to try the robot > end ledge part with AR, if the human form jump physics are the same when moonjump is on. I'm not concerned about it because I know a dash would get the rest of the distance. Instead of trying this anymore, I'd rather try to skip another item now. It's already done.. at least in my mind.

edit: torvus speed trick, might be known:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/dark_forgotten_bridge.avi

3bj-bs jump over the fence to reach chykka after boost instead of having to enter through the portal. saves about a minute and 9 seconds going by sparky's run.

doninss

2005-04-17 06:56:14 pm

Another 3bj-bsj trick. I don't know if it's known (or faster than Red Scarlet's ghetto). In Mining Station B (Darkburst) you can get to the power-up without doing the timed bomb-slot puzzle.

http://www.geocities.com/doninss/mining_b_BSJ.avi

I guess I better watch bartendorsparky's run to see all he did. It came in the mail today, my wife just handed it to me. :D (It'll be the first whole run I've ever watched.)

Random Zelda Person

2005-04-17 07:11:42 pm

That is exactly what sparky does, but he starts from the middle instead of the edge of the blade, so it is slightly faster.

doninss

2005-04-24 02:19:25 pm

Quote from DJGrenola:

One idea, probably a complete waste of time: kill the guardian with the power bomb, use the glitchy spiderball track to get back to the door, hit the door and see if the game crashes. If not, you could go two rooms away, come back and see if those electric gates have vanished and spider remains for a possible time save.

Highly unlikely it would work, I must admit, and you'd probably not save more than 30 seconds or so (if it's even quicker), but I'd be interested to know the outcome if anyone can be bothered.

Still crashes. :^(

DJGrenola

2005-04-25 09:12:59 pm

Quote from doninss:

Quote from DJGrenola:

One idea, probably a complete waste of time: kill the guardian with the power bomb, use the glitchy spiderball track to get back to the door, hit the door and see if the game crashes. If not, you could go two rooms away, come back and see if those electric gates have vanished and spider remains for a possible time save.

Highly unlikely it would work, I must admit, and you'd probably not save more than 30 seconds or so (if it's even quicker), but I'd be interested to know the outcome if anyone can be bothered.

Still crashes. :^(

predictable. nm, thanks for trying it.

kip

2005-04-27 09:05:07 am

funny little thing in industrial site, saves a few seconds:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/industrial_site.avi

might be able to jump out the map with sj/screw.. or neither, i didn't really try.

unfortunately that violet gate in tas is still there if you do this, or it'd save the time it takes to scan and wait for that gate to go down too.

jng

2005-04-27 01:53:32 pm

Quote from kip:

funny little thing in industrial site, saves a few seconds:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/industrial_site.avi

Whoa, that was cool! It seems that Samus, invisibly, is riding the container thingy in the cut-scene! And when the cut-scene is over, she falls down on the ground! Btw, is it required to watch the whole cut-scene when doing the trick? Not that it matters cause the gametime doesn't count cut-scenes. Heh, that's a lot of cut-scenes :)

Frozen Mr. Toastbrot

2005-04-27 03:53:17 pm

Nice speed trick. Using a cutscene to save time is definitely something different from usual speed tricks.

Oh, what's the farthest anyone gotten without space jump?

jng

2005-04-27 04:26:31 pm

Quote from Frozen Mr. Toastbrot:

Nice speed trick. Using a cutscene to save time is definitely something different from usual speed tricks.

Yeah, maybe it can be used in more places! Go hunting Kip 8)

kip

2005-04-27 08:34:04 pm

Quote:

Oh, what's the farthest anyone gotten without space jump?

Still Bioenergy Production, but there's been a little progress recently. After the bs jump was found we remembered how you could get instant unmorphs trying to bomb jump from the first rack to the second, so we tried a laddered 3bj-bs jump. Sparky even made it to the second rack a couple times:

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/mp2/bioenergy_nosj_1.avi

The problem is it's too hard to get the game to let you jump after the unmorph (something screwy about how 3bjs work with bs jumps). The chances of making both jumps in the same try is bleak unless we figure out the deal with the unmorph. Dbjs don't get the height so they're out of the question.

Sparky said if you get grav without sj, you get one jump and grav boost. Assuming screw attack works the same way, it might already be possible to skip sj. But I don't think it would work for low%, I don't see how you could do that robot trick in GA with 1 jump.

jng

2005-04-28 05:47:00 am

Well, that would make Reactor Core in Sanctuary Fortress quite hard, wont it? Just wonder...it's many bsj's in a row. But I don't know about the height though, it might not require 3bj-bs jumps.

Kip, do you need to watch the whole cut-scene to make the IS trick work?

Frozen Mr. Toastbrot

2005-04-28 06:06:23 am

Thanks, kip. I had the impression that a bs jump without spacejump is far more random than a bs jump with sj, even with a normal bomb jump. I manage to do the jump with sj nearly all of the time, but I hardly manage to do it without sj. Could be just me, though.

Another note: In Command Center you can easily scan dash over the gap in the upper level by pressing R as soon as you start the dash. Just use the door to Security Station B as lock on point. I guess someone already discovered it, but I couldn't find it here.

jng

2005-04-28 07:38:59 am

I discovered a faster (and cooler looking) strategy-variation for Sacred path first time trough. Do this fast:

When you enter the room, jump and shoot the hive to the left with a missile, land, turn right, start scanning the hive while dashing to the left. When the scanning is done, turn right, run and ghetto up the bricks while moving backwards and land on the destroyed hive. Turn left and scan dash to the left of the already scanned hive. When you land on the first platform, jump up on the stone to the right. Scan dash to the left of the door that you came into the room from (it's "out of range", so no waiting here for actually scanning it, like the wall Sparky used in his 100% run) When you land, turn left and scan dash to the left of the hive there (at the same level as you, not the one you scanned to make it to the first platform in the first place) while turning left in mid-air. When you land, turn slightly left and enter the door.

ShadowJedi

2005-04-29 03:27:32 am

In Industrial Site, if you break the cutscene, the box will disappear instead of move away, so no, it won't work. I have tried it.

Frozen Mr. Toastbrot

2005-04-29 04:34:49 pm

I guess it's not useful in any kind of speedrun, but you can get the Missile Expansion in Bioenergy Production/Storage C as soon as you have Super Missiles. In Bioenergy Production Lower two block for the right platorm and all the blocks for the middle platform. Then space jump from the computer to lower the right blocks onto the platform above this computer (left of the spider block). Lock onto the door to Ventilation Area B with the scan visor and do an r-dash to the right, using your second jump to reach the right block plattform. Continue your way to Storage C with normal space jumps.

Edit: Forget about this, I just noticed it was already in the wiki...I should have looked there first.

Mr. Aran

2005-04-29 04:39:48 pm

everybody knows it's true

if some uber tactical 100% route involves going into Agon Wastes at that part, there you go.

doninss

2005-04-29 10:14:33 pm

You can also use that door to dash to the middle block (set at two blocks lowered). If you wanted the energy tank first time thru the room, and set the end blocks at three lowered, it should be slightly quicker than the normal way (set the blocks for the tank and climb to it, drop down reset the blocks to get to the door and climb again).

I can't imagine a speed run caliber player needing that tank at that time however.

Ekarderif

2005-04-29 10:16:48 pm

Sorry to be completely off-topic but... DELACROIX! :D

doninss

2005-04-29 10:26:31 pm

Equally off-topic (apologies admin): I almost cried. Never in a video game before or after have I wanted something so much, and been so let down. I killed with a genuine vengence for quite awhile. (Hope you know what I'm taking about.)

Edit: SHODAN (sometimes).

silent (((((echo)))))

2005-05-03 12:34:45 pm

I have trouble with doing dark forgotten speed trick that kip has discovered. I can't do a double bomb space jump. I can do only a single BSJ. Is the double BSJ different from the BSJ?

tjp7154

2005-05-03 02:54:10 pm

Bananas GOOD, Kremlings BAD

To to do the double BSJ successfully, I believe you have to place the second bomb lower than the peak of the first bomb jump.

I've tried this a lot of times and this seems to be the case.

You can also try unmorphing before the peak of the first bomb jump.

graveworm

2005-05-03 03:36:54 pm

As long as you can get an instant unmorph, it shouldn't matter when you lay your bombs/when you unmorph.