Speed tricks topic

2006-04-21 02:12:14 am

Ah, I just saw the top part of the last page… I really got to stop skimming these pages. I basically just watched the video when I came to the topic. I’d like to clear some stuff up or at least try to.

#1: The boost thing is not new and I never thought it was new. I’m not sure what exactly kip meant in the first asterisk of this post, but I think he is mentioning the boost thing. It might answer some of SkippyJr’s questions.

#2: It was the regular space jump after the roll-jump that I had never seen before, but I knew that was theoretically possible.

If it needs a name, I like your "boost-roll-jump," Red Scarlet; it's self-explanatory.

Okay, then. I think that’s enough of Echoes for another year… I’ve had enough already, believe me.

SkippyJr

2006-04-21 01:30:44 pm

What kip was doing there was trying a bost *after* rolling off the ledge. Scarlet's observation that an instant unmorph can occur when boosting off of a ledge is new.

However, it is not easier than a standard roll jump. It is not so easy to get an instant unmorph out of a full or partially charged boost (although it is easier with partial boost as already noted). I have made it across with the boost+L-jump, but I find it far more difficult than the roll jump. (After a boost the camera likes to follow you into the pit, and so there is no chance for eclipsing the morphball.)

A roll jump with out holding R throughout is just an L-jump started within the pit (also already noted). So crossing WSA with a non-R roll jump would definately be easier with boost than without because of the slight extra distance. I'd bet that kip knew of the non-R roll jump, and that adding R was his major contribution to the move (once he discovers something he is quite thorough in optimizing it - see the post ZooM references for an example). We now know that L+R is crucial for messing with momentum in Echoes; it is the basis of both scan dashes, the underwater dash, and the roll jump.

This new bit of knowledge isn't exactly DOA - one just needs to see how R can be added to the move. Should R be depressed pre or post boost? Is the forward momentum given by L+R in the boosted version different from the regular roll jump as you are traveling in a more downward direction to get the instant unmorph? I'd love to help answer these questions but a "good" boost still is random for me.

What kip was doing there was trying a bost *after* rolling off the ledge.  Scarlet's observation that an instant unmorph can occur when boosting off of a ledge is new.

However, it is not easier than a standard roll jump.  It is not so easy to get an instant unmorph out of a full or partially charged boost (although it is easier with partial boost as already noted).  I have made it across with the boost+L-jump, but I find it far more difficult than the roll jump. (After a boost the camera likes to follow you into the pit, and so there is no chance for eclipsing the morphball.)

A roll jump with out holding R throughout is just an L-jump started within the pit (also already noted).  So crossing WSA with a non-R roll jump would definately be easier with boost than without because of the slight extra distance.  I'd bet that kip knew of the non-R roll jump, and that adding R was his major contribution to the move (once he discovers something he is quite thorough in optimizing it - see the post ZooM references for an example).  We now know that L+R is crucial for messing with momentum in Echoes; it is the basis of both scan dashes, the underwater dash, and the roll jump.

This new bit of knowledge isn't exactly DOA - one just needs to see how R can be added to the move.  Should R be depressed pre or post boost?  Is the forward momentum given by L+R in the boosted version different from the regular roll jump as you are traveling in a more downward direction to get the instant unmorph?  I'd love to help answer these questions but a "good" boost still is random for me.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2006-04-21 01:46:51 pm

Could this new technique be used for Geo Core in MP1?

UchihaSasuke

2006-04-21 04:14:44 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

i don't think roll jumps are possible in mp1

or at least i have never seen them in mp1

DJGrenola

2006-05-02 01:08:33 am

strawberry express ftw.

Red Scarlet

2006-05-04 02:02:31 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Glad you got it to go..but how long did it take?

DJGrenola

2006-05-05 07:45:07 am

.. maybe 50 tries ? I'm better with kip's method, but then I had to practise kip's way hundreds and hundreds of times when I did my 20%, so that's not surprising. I suck at all roll jumps too.

I did have a play with trying to get it to work with R as well ("boost strawberry rodeo express jump" or something) to see if it would give me any more distance - I didn't get very far, but I need to mess about with it some more. Obviously I'm thinking about using the extra distance to skip grapple here.

silent (((((echo)))))

2006-05-28 01:07:33 pm

Here is a 100% speed trick in sanctuary entrance. After destroying the background with the turret, you can reach the kinectic orb cannon ledge for the power bomb expansion much faster with a well-placed screw-attack cancel.

It saves 10 secs.

Here is the vid : http://zeromission.co.uk/silent_echo/sanctuary_entrance_pb_speedtrick.avi

The previous and slower method was this one : http://zeromission.co.uk/silent_echo/sanctuary_entrance_pb_oldmethod.avi

XtraX

2006-06-12 12:54:00 pm

I somehow wanted to edit the low% wiki page and you can find the edited one here: http://www.metroid2002.com/prime2/index.php/Current_Lowest_%25_and_Requirements
http://www.metroid2002.com/prime2/index.php/Current_Obstacles_to_Skipping_Items

That should probably go into the locked low% sticky. Please correct any mistakes as I'm not sure about some things.

DJGrenola

2006-06-12 03:19:07 pm

you planning a run or something ?

I'm still hoping to do another low%, and I'd have started by now if it wasn't for the fact that my dvd recorder won't accept PAL-60, so I'm looking at building a device to convert PAL-60 to NTSC .. either that or just buying an NTSC cube and running my PAL echoes via a freeloader.

silent (((((echo)))))

2006-06-14 08:52:03 am

Quote:

-It is seemingly possible to skip Super Missiles, but it hasn't been done yet, because everybody hates Echoes.

I don't know whether to cry cry or laugh... laugh new

Maybe I should try both.

XtraX

2006-06-14 12:25:59 pm

@DJGrenola: No,I'm not, but I would still like to see one :P

s_e:
skipping Super: Go for it!
I think it is a bad idea to try hating Echoes though :P

silent (((((echo)))))

2006-06-16 04:26:32 am

Quote:

s_e:
skipping Super: Go for it!
I think it is a bad idea to try hating Echoes though Razz

I can't wallcrawl, my wallcrawlings are just...horrible. When I skip echo visor, I must get to the Quadraxis room to activate battle cutscene, because I can't do properly a single dorrwarp right after the echo gate. That's the only way to get back on the game bounds.

Just wanted to show how I suck at wallcrawling... laugh new

rekameohs

2006-06-16 01:14:45 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from silent (((((echo))))):

Just wanted to show how I suck at wallcrawling... laugh new

I can do something...BETTER... at echoes than the Echoes master! \:D/

doninss

2006-06-16 11:40:35 pm

Quote from silent (((((echo))))):

... I can't do properly a single dorrwarp right after the echo gate. ...

I share something with the Echoes master.

XtraX

2006-06-19 12:43:15 pm

I've been wondering about the fastest SW any% route today (no, I'm not planning to do a run >_>) and while I haven't found anything useful yet, I noticed that silent (((((echo))))) did go through Sanctuary Fortrest->Temple Grounds for the Light suit in his 1:43 run (it's part 15). That might very well be the fastest route, I don't know. Silent (((((echo))))) didn't do watch station w/o Spider and I assume it would have saved 15 seconds.

But he could afaik have gone through Sentinel's Path->Watch station->...->Reactor core instead of Main gyro chamber/Hall of combat mastery etc. I have timed it to be 1:05 (entering Sanctuary Temple to entering Reactor core); silent (((((echo))))) took 1:30. That's 25 seconds saved there ;)

silent (((((echo)))))

2006-06-20 03:45:06 pm

Quote from XtraX:

I've been wondering about the fastest SW any% route today (no, I'm not planning to do a run >_>) and while I haven't found anything useful yet, I noticed that silent (((((echo))))) did go through Sanctuary Fortrest->Temple Grounds for the Light suit in his 1:43 run (it's part 15). That might very well be the fastest route, I don't know. Silent (((((echo))))) didn't do watch station w/o Spider and I assume it would have saved 15 seconds.

But he could afaik have gone through Sentinel's Path->Watch station->...->Reactor core instead of Main gyro chamber/Hall of combat mastery etc. I have timed it to be 1:05 (entering Sanctuary Temple to entering Reactor core); silent (((((echo))))) took 1:30. That's 25 seconds saved there ;)

Wow, I don't know why I have never thought of that! Shocked

. The rooms of your route load faster than my route. It's too bad because some bad-ass tricks and skips saving very few time got the crap out of me during the run and I miss that thing so easy (looking at you stupid segment 2 and torvus temple energy tank skip!!! :x .)

Good job XtraX! The 1:43 is getting more and more improvable. I'll post a list of all the improvements possible since my run came out.

After Quadraxis, it would be faster to go to the dark version of grand abyss instead of the portal close to mini gyro chamber.

[quote="XtraX"]I've been wondering about the fastest SW any% route today (no, I'm not planning to do a run >_>) and while I haven't found anything useful yet, I noticed that silent (((((echo)))))  did go through Sanctuary Fortrest->Temple Grounds for the Light suit in his 1:43 run (it's part 15). That might very well be the fastest route, I don't know. Silent (((((echo))))) didn't do watch station w/o Spider and I assume it would have saved 15 seconds.

But he could afaik have gone through Sentinel's Path->Watch station->...->Reactor core instead of Main gyro chamber/Hall of combat mastery etc. I have timed it to be 1:05 (entering Sanctuary Temple to entering Reactor core); silent (((((echo))))) took 1:30. That's 25 seconds saved there ;)[/quote]

Wow, I don't know why I have never thought of that! :shock: . The rooms of your route load faster than my route. It's too bad because some bad-ass tricks and skips saving very few time got the crap out of me during the run and I miss that thing so easy (looking at you stupid segment 2 and torvus temple energy tank skip!!! :x .)

Good job XtraX! The 1:43 is getting more and more improvable. I'll post a list of all the improvements possible since my run came out.

After Quadraxis, it would be faster to go to the dark version of grand abyss instead of the portal close to mini gyro chamber.

bushwacker

2006-06-20 07:56:54 pm

In any% with SWs wouldn't you do the Echo Visor skip as well?

silent (((((echo)))))

2006-06-21 05:33:37 am

Quote from LeCoureur103:

In any% with SWs wouldn't you do the Echo Visor skip as well?

Yes, it saves between 2mins 30secs and 3mins, it depends on the speed of the wallcrawl. In hard mode, it must save 4mins because dark samus 2 is longer to kill.

When you skip the echo visor, you don't have to stop the second rotating circle in mini gyro chamber, on the second floor with the colored switches and bomb slot. There is also an early PB expansion you can grab near temple assembly site with secret worlds. You can get it as soon as you grab space jump but the best moment to get it is on your trip to torvus bog, after completing agon. Nobody really knows how much time it saves but we can be sure of something, it saves time. I guess that it saves between 1 and 2 mins.

A SW-assisted any% run could "easily" go sub 1:40.

Here is the list of stuff that could be used in order to improve the current any% run. Some of this stuff wasn't discovered when the any% run was completed :

Let's assume that less mistakes and less saves than the any% run is not likely, except for the grapple skip segment.

-sacred path scan dash, saves about 6-7 : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_sacred_path.php

-tri-ghetto speed trick in mining plaza, saves about 10secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_mining_plaza.php
This trick is absolutely suicidal, it is impossible to do consistently and it is done in one of the longest and most difficult segment of the run. It requires saving in great temple before alpha splinter instead of saving in agon wastes.

-biostorage station ghetto jump, saves 4secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_biostorage_station.php

-torvus grove pirates skip, saves between 5 and 10 seconds : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_torvus_grove.php

-industrial site, scan the pole while walking before ghetto jump, saves 2 secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_industrial_site.php

-Hall of combat mastery additional mid-air morph, saves 5secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_hall_of_combat_mastery.php

-grapple skip segment, 1 minute can be saved here : I don't think that doing a flawless grand abyss segment is possible, transit station, vault, hall of combat mastery. These tricks with the nervousness can kill more than a minute. It involves luck imo. I could have lost 2mins in the any% run.

-Faster spider guardian strategy for third puzzle, saves 10 secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5094

-After the quadraxis battle, go to judgement drop, the dark version of grand abyss instead of returning to hive dynamo works. It saves 10secs.

-New route thought by XtraX after sanctuary temple to get to reactor core quicker. It involves going to sentinel's path, watch station... It saves 25 seconds.

-Skip the beam ammo expansion in dark torvus, in the room behind purple door. It saves 10secs. The beam ammo expansion is no longer required because emperor ing form 3 can be thrashed with screw attack.

-Battlegound ghetto jump to the sky temple key, saves 4 secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_battleground.php

-Emperor ing form 3 screw attack method to kill him, can save up to 1 minute.

That's what I can think of, I doubt that the battles could be improved and that a faster sky temple key route exists. I'm not planning to improve the any% run, or at least not for the moment. The next time I'll do the grapple skip, it will be for completing a 21% run. :P

can you think of other improvements?

[quote="LeCoureur103"]In any% with SWs wouldn't you do the Echo Visor skip as well?[/quote]

Yes, it saves between 2mins 30secs and 3mins, it depends on the speed of the wallcrawl. In hard mode, it must save 4mins because dark samus 2 is longer to kill.

When you skip the echo visor, you don't have to stop the second rotating circle in mini gyro chamber, on the second floor with the colored switches and bomb slot. There is also an early PB expansion you can grab near temple assembly site with secret worlds. You can get it as soon as you grab space jump but the best moment to get it is on your trip to torvus bog, after completing agon. Nobody really knows how much time it saves but we can be sure of something, it saves time. I guess that it saves between 1 and 2 mins.

A SW-assisted any% run could "easily" go sub 1:40.

Here is the list of stuff that could be used in order to improve the current any% run. Some of this stuff wasn't discovered when the any% run was completed :

Let's assume that less mistakes and less saves than the any% run is not likely, except for the grapple skip segment.

-sacred path scan dash, saves about 6-7 : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_sacred_path.php

-tri-ghetto speed trick in mining plaza, saves about 10secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_mining_plaza.php
This trick is absolutely suicidal, it is impossible to do consistently and it is done in one of the longest and most difficult segment of the run. It requires saving in great temple before alpha splinter instead of saving in agon wastes.

-biostorage station ghetto jump, saves 4secs :  http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_biostorage_station.php

-torvus grove pirates skip, saves between 5 and 10 seconds : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_torvus_grove.php

-industrial site, scan the pole while walking before ghetto jump, saves 2 secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_industrial_site.php

-Hall of combat mastery additional mid-air morph, saves 5secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_hall_of_combat_mastery.php

-grapple skip segment, 1 minute can be saved here : I don't think that doing a flawless grand abyss segment is possible, transit station, vault, hall of combat mastery. These tricks with the nervousness can kill more than a minute. It involves luck imo. I could have lost 2mins in the any% run.

-Faster spider guardian strategy for third puzzle, saves 10 secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5094

-After the quadraxis battle, go to judgement drop, the dark version of grand abyss instead of returning to hive dynamo works. It saves 10secs.

-New route thought by XtraX after sanctuary temple to get to reactor core quicker. It involves going to sentinel's path, watch station... It saves 25 seconds.

-Skip the beam ammo expansion in dark torvus, in the room behind purple door. It saves 10secs. The beam ammo expansion is no longer required because emperor ing form 3 can be thrashed with screw attack.

-Battlegound ghetto jump to the sky temple key, saves 4 secs : http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_battleground.php

-Emperor ing form 3 screw attack method to kill him, can save up to 1 minute.

That's what I can think of, I doubt that the battles could be improved and that a faster sky temple key route exists. I'm not planning to improve the any% run, or at least not for the moment. The next time I'll do the grapple skip, it will be for completing a 21% run.  :P

can you think of other improvements?

tuomii

2006-06-21 11:20:05 am

I know one small trick in mining station A, it saves about 2sec. on the way back from bomb guardien, insted of tripple bomb jump near the door do a roll jump at the beginnign of the room and land on the pillar and then just jump to the door aiwebs_008

.

about the three ghetto jump in mining palaza, I practice it alot but still it's very very hard. so if someone is about to do a speedrun I recommend you leave that trick out. but thats just my touhgt Wink

. there are some small tricks to be found, I see if I can find anything.

Edit: S_E in feeding pit did you shoot all the flying things(forgat the name) and lower the pillar before getting the light beam cuse a bsj should be faster I think Question

silent (((((echo)))))

2006-06-21 03:43:55 pm

Quote:

S_E in feeding pit did you shoot all the flying things(forgat the name) and lower the pillar before getting the light beam cuse a bsj should be faster I think

No, I didn't kill the flying ennemies. A bsj is probably slower than just lowering the pillar without killing ennemies and then jumping to the dark door.

tuomii

2006-06-23 09:26:56 am

On the way to boost guardien from lower trovus, I think we should use this route: temple access-> great brigde-> abandoned work site and take the portal in forgotten bridge, from here we do the early boost boll trick, beat boost guardien and save before chykka.

this way we can skip amber translator wich will save about 15 secounds, correct me if I'am wrong=)

SkippyJr

2006-06-23 10:36:59 am

Hmm, that route seems a bit faster (but that ~15 second float w/o the Dark Suit would be murder!). Also, that would be Emerald Translator, and no, it cannot be fully skipped non-SW (because of the Great Temple gate). If you get Boost before picking up the translator, then don't kill the pirates in Torvus Grove (which we don't, thanks to s_e) as that makes Emerald disappear.
kip Refs: http://www.samusforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=151192#151192 & http://www.samusforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=158911#158911

For silent (((((echo))))) & doninss et al., the quick doorwarp for SW Cobalt skip is not so bad. The basis for the trick is that the game only keeps two rooms open at a time. So, all one does is first head out over to near the door to HDW and listen to make sure that the GC has loaded it (so that HGC is dumped). Then go to the far side and morph fall to the hight of the door on the other side (and unmorph of course). You have a few seconds of leway before the room gets loaded.

Hmm, that route seems a bit faster (but that ~15 second float w/o the Dark Suit would be murder!).  Also, that would be Emerald Translator, and no, it cannot be fully skipped non-SW (because of the Great Temple gate).  If you get Boost before picking up the translator, then don't kill  the pirates in Torvus Grove (which [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/speed_tricks_torvus_grove.php]we don't[/url], thanks to s_e) as that makes Emerald disappear.
kip Refs: http://www.samusforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=151192#151192 & http://www.samusforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=158911#158911

For silent (((((echo))))) & doninss et al., the quick doorwarp for SW Cobalt skip is not so bad.  The basis for the trick is that the game only keeps two rooms open at a time.  So, all one does is first head out over to near the door to HDW and listen to make sure that the GC has loaded it (so that HGC is dumped).  Then go to the far side and morph fall to the hight of the door on the other side (and unmorph of course).  You have a few seconds of leway before the room gets loaded.

DJGrenola

2006-06-23 12:35:12 pm

I like it when people post lists of improvements just before I start a speed run. :)

(no, I'm not being sarcastic)

Yoshi348

2006-06-23 04:19:29 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

It's much better than just after you finish a run, that's for sure.