red chamber dream
smart people don't become cops because the pay is shit
Then how would you enforce the law?
Archived M2K2 Forum
Cops have the right to ask for ID, and they always do. You don't have to be doing anything wrong. There's no reason not to comply with something so basic unless you have something to hide or you're an idiot. I have zero sympathy for people who get taken down by the cops when they refuse to comply with totally simple instructions like presenting an ID or stepping out of a car. If you have nothing to hide, then what's the problem? Just do it and then go on your way.
red chamber dream
i agree with all that, but it's beside the point. there was no reason to ask that passenger to step out of the car. that cop just wanted to harass the guy. this became obvious when the cop violently attacked the unarmed passenger for asking a few questions.
sure you should listen to cops, but a cop shouldn't be the first person in an encounter to get violent. he should have stayed there and talked to the guy more until he was calmer. being a cop is dangerous. it's part of the job. that's why we should pay them more.
sure you should listen to cops, but a cop shouldn't be the first person in an encounter to get violent. he should have stayed there and talked to the guy more until he was calmer. being a cop is dangerous. it's part of the job. that's why we should pay them more.
He should sit there and have baby-talk for 13 minutes with that clown? I think he was more than patient. 13 minutes is a long time to sit there and try to convince someone to do something as simple as stand up. And how do you know that there was no reason to ask him to step outside of the car? The moment any of them acts defiant to simple and basic instructions, the cops go into defensive mode - and with good reason. That would be a perfectly valid reason to ask him to step outside the car. If he gets outside the car, they can see his hands, and it would make it more difficult for him to keep ignoring the officer. He's an idiot and I'm getting so sick of all these criminal thugs and dipshits being filmed in these situations, and then everyone watches the video and only questions the cops' behavior. Ask yourself if you've ever been tackled or tased by the cops. No? There's a good reason and it has little to do with race. It's because you're not a criminal and you would comply with handing over your ID or getting out of the car.
One shall stand, one shall ball.
Thing is though, the person in the video? Also not a criminal. Maybe a bit of a prick, maybe kind of dumb, but there's no evidence of criminal activity. And absolutely no reason to break a window and use a taser.
A police officer has to be aware that there is zero trust in minority communities, they pull over some suburban white bread bro and expect him to follow instructions immediately, they pull over a black person and they're dealing with someone that, very reasonably, is expecting to be harmed by the police officer. The approach has to be different because they need to build trust not just with the individual(s) in the incident but with the community as a whole. Things like that video just reinforce the perception (and for many reality) that the police are not a force for good. Keep in mind police officers around where I live have notable shot and killed and mentally disabled unarmed black man for not being as cooperative as they'd like, and they were made aware of the man's illness before arriving and are supposedly trained to deal with that situation (by shooting I guess). They clearly need to bring in some fuckin diplomats or something because cops clearly have no idea how to talk to human beings as human beings.
I'd suggest they spend less time training for violent response and more time on simple communication but they can't shoot for shit either given that I have seen my local police light up a pickup truck with to old ladies delivering newspapers in it (because they thought it was Christopher Dorner somehow) and failed to kill them. Also another guy for the same reason who they also failed to kill. I mean I'm glad they succeeded in not killing innocent people but their evidently poor aim is equally as terrifying as the speed with which they jump to "Fire everything!!!".
Better training and swift, harsh punishment for violations such as attacking an unarmed individual who is not displaying violent behavior would go a long way. Part of the distrust is based on the fact the police officers get away with violence so often. People in those communities don't get upset because a cop tased or shot an unarmed person, they get upset because they tased or shot an unarmed person again and nothing will be done about it. That the officers are often chubby white dudes with shaved heads doesn't help matters.
What also doesn't help is that police absolutely profile the shit out of minorities as we saw with New York's Stop and Search policy where the ratio of stops between white people and minorities was heavily biased toward stopping minorities while the white people were significantly more likely end with an arrest since they were likely to be stopped for something more suspicious than walking down the street while and dark skin. Training can help with that, but racism plays a role obviously and that part is something American society on the whole has to work on not just the cops.
A police officer has to be aware that there is zero trust in minority communities, they pull over some suburban white bread bro and expect him to follow instructions immediately, they pull over a black person and they're dealing with someone that, very reasonably, is expecting to be harmed by the police officer. The approach has to be different because they need to build trust not just with the individual(s) in the incident but with the community as a whole. Things like that video just reinforce the perception (and for many reality) that the police are not a force for good. Keep in mind police officers around where I live have notable shot and killed and mentally disabled unarmed black man for not being as cooperative as they'd like, and they were made aware of the man's illness before arriving and are supposedly trained to deal with that situation (by shooting I guess). They clearly need to bring in some fuckin diplomats or something because cops clearly have no idea how to talk to human beings as human beings.
I'd suggest they spend less time training for violent response and more time on simple communication but they can't shoot for shit either given that I have seen my local police light up a pickup truck with to old ladies delivering newspapers in it (because they thought it was Christopher Dorner somehow) and failed to kill them. Also another guy for the same reason who they also failed to kill. I mean I'm glad they succeeded in not killing innocent people but their evidently poor aim is equally as terrifying as the speed with which they jump to "Fire everything!!!".
Quote from Idkbutlike2:
How's that gonna get rid of any of the distrust towards them in poor urban areas?
Better training and swift, harsh punishment for violations such as attacking an unarmed individual who is not displaying violent behavior would go a long way. Part of the distrust is based on the fact the police officers get away with violence so often. People in those communities don't get upset because a cop tased or shot an unarmed person, they get upset because they tased or shot an unarmed person again and nothing will be done about it. That the officers are often chubby white dudes with shaved heads doesn't help matters.
What also doesn't help is that police absolutely profile the shit out of minorities as we saw with New York's Stop and Search policy where the ratio of stops between white people and minorities was heavily biased toward stopping minorities while the white people were significantly more likely end with an arrest since they were likely to be stopped for something more suspicious than walking down the street while and dark skin. Training can help with that, but racism plays a role obviously and that part is something American society on the whole has to work on not just the cops.
Yes, he is a prick, and yes, he is dumb. So is it any surprise how things ended? The officers tried words for 13 freakin' minutes. After that what is left? There's no choice but to use force. The lady gets pulled over and instead of complying she drags it out, questions them on their procedures, starts telling THEM what to do, calls 911 to complain about the whole thing, so they essentially played dumb and turned it into fucking game. They knew damn well what they were doing and the cops let it go on longer than I would think they should have. If they had complied, then they would be on their way. It's that simple. So I side with the cops 100%.
I did, and it's naive. It suggests that in that situation they should have tried simple communication vs force, but ignores the fact that they already tried that - for a long fucking time - and it didn't work. The stupid shitheads that are a cancer on our society do not respond to reason or simple communication.
When words don't work, there is only force left.
No. And that's the problem.
How do you think it should have been handled?
When words don't work, there is only force left.
Quote from tomatobob:
Quote from Opium:
Yes, he is a prick, and yes, he is dumb. So is it any surprise how things ended?
No. And that's the problem.
How do you think it should have been handled?
Quote from ryu:
They probably shouldn't have pulled the car to begin with.
But....they had reason to pull over the car. How do you figure they should have NOT pulled them over? Should they have been clairvoyant enough to know that the people would be resistant and just let it go?
Quote from ryu:
And the implication here is that, if the cops were more competent and had a better rep that civilian might have responded properly in that situation.
But,what does the more competent cop DO? You can say they need better training and are incompetent, but what will that magic training make them do differently? How would a competent cop have handled that situation? There are unreasonable people who will play games and refuse to comply no matter what words you use. The cops can stand there all day long and be as polite and reasonable as humanly possible for hours on end, and it will do NOTHING. The cops know this because they deal with people like that all the time. How then do you suppose the police should deal with people like that?
One shall stand, one shall ball.
Police do everything but simple communication. They are trained to escalate every situation they enter, first through speaking "authoritatively" which to them boils down to being verbally belligerent and, more often than not, aggressive. People do not respond to that nearly as well as they'd like to think and can make an already agitated (scared) person act less than rationally. And people have every reason to be scared of the police they use excessive force far too often, in part because they are absolutely allowed to. There is no disciplinary action taken when a cop punches a retrained and secured suspect in the head repeatedly for mouthing off. There is no action taken when a cop "accidentally" fires a shotgun into the back of the head of a suspect who is on the ground and cuffed because he apparently isn't expected to know basic fire arm handling and trigger discipline. There is no action taken when a cop chokes an unarmed man who eventually dies from his injuries and had apparently done nothing wrong.
It is, in practicality, foolish to trust them particularly if you're black. Because your actions have consequences and theirs do not. So yes, rationally the best course of action is to just "yes sir, no sir" and hopefully get on with your day but when your world sees getting out of your vehicle at the request of a law enforcement official as an invitation to get the everloving shit beaten out of you rationality is liable to go out the window. The woman in the car right at the start of the video is saying one of those cops pulled gun. And I'm liable to believe that because in my experience cops pull their guns at the drop of a hat. I had a couple cops walk through my house guns drawn because someone saw a kid supposedly the back fence carrying a bike. You can argue they're scared too sure, and you'd be right, but they have be above just resorting to violence when they don't get their way just because they're scared. They're supposed to have training for that.
The video shows a nonviolent encounter, it's traffic stop for not wearing a seat belt. Just write the ticket, you got the information, you don't need to pull a gun, you don't need them to get out of the car to hand them the ticket, and there is no readily apparent reason to have the occupants of the vehicle exit. Write the ticket, move on. There is no excuse for breaking the window and tasing the guy. But they'll come up with some vague justification and the precinct will say they acted appropriately to the situation and everyone will just accept it because well that just should have done as he was told and thus had it coming and the cops ill live to harass people another day.
It is, in practicality, foolish to trust them particularly if you're black. Because your actions have consequences and theirs do not. So yes, rationally the best course of action is to just "yes sir, no sir" and hopefully get on with your day but when your world sees getting out of your vehicle at the request of a law enforcement official as an invitation to get the everloving shit beaten out of you rationality is liable to go out the window. The woman in the car right at the start of the video is saying one of those cops pulled gun. And I'm liable to believe that because in my experience cops pull their guns at the drop of a hat. I had a couple cops walk through my house guns drawn because someone saw a kid supposedly the back fence carrying a bike. You can argue they're scared too sure, and you'd be right, but they have be above just resorting to violence when they don't get their way just because they're scared. They're supposed to have training for that.
Quote from Opium:
How do you think it should have been handled?
The video shows a nonviolent encounter, it's traffic stop for not wearing a seat belt. Just write the ticket, you got the information, you don't need to pull a gun, you don't need them to get out of the car to hand them the ticket, and there is no readily apparent reason to have the occupants of the vehicle exit. Write the ticket, move on. There is no excuse for breaking the window and tasing the guy. But they'll come up with some vague justification and the precinct will say they acted appropriately to the situation and everyone will just accept it because well that just should have done as he was told and thus had it coming and the cops ill live to harass people another day.
One shall stand, one shall ball.
For real a few years ago, at like eleven at night, someone parked in front of my house and left their car's lights on. And by "in front of my house" I mean near the driveway and more in front of my neighbor's house.
Like four cops showed up to deal with this. Pounded on the door and said in the most accusing and wildly inappropriate tone imaginable for the situation, if that was my car and if I was aware the lights were on. It was maybe the single most baffling situation I've ever been in. Bitches were pissed about those headlights I guess.
Like four cops showed up to deal with this. Pounded on the door and said in the most accusing and wildly inappropriate tone imaginable for the situation, if that was my car and if I was aware the lights were on. It was maybe the single most baffling situation I've ever been in. Bitches were pissed about those headlights I guess.
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
I have been pulled over by police 4 times in my life: twice for speeding, once for talking on my phone, and once for having a tall light out. All perfectly justified on the part of the police. Not once have I been asked to step out of the car. I showed my license and registration, the chip disappeared for 30 fucking minutes, and he comes back with a ticket and a court date. That is all that needs to happen.
Hell, the first time I got pulled over I was so nervous and tired the cop thought I was on something. He shined a flashlight in my eyes and asked if he needed to search my car. He still did not ask me to step outside.
And honestly that lady was in her right to call 911. If a cop is behaving in a way that makes you suspicious, 911 is the best way to confirm that who you are speaking to is in fact an officer of the law. It wasn't to long ago in my area that some dick got himself a flashing light, a fake badge and a siren and went around masquerading as a plainclothes officer, stealing people's IDs.
Hell, the first time I got pulled over I was so nervous and tired the cop thought I was on something. He shined a flashlight in my eyes and asked if he needed to search my car. He still did not ask me to step outside.
And honestly that lady was in her right to call 911. If a cop is behaving in a way that makes you suspicious, 911 is the best way to confirm that who you are speaking to is in fact an officer of the law. It wasn't to long ago in my area that some dick got himself a flashing light, a fake badge and a siren and went around masquerading as a plainclothes officer, stealing people's IDs.
You say police do not use simple communication as if you are in denial that the cops did just that for up to 13 minutes before the start of the video. The cops only did what they did because they had tried simple communication over and over to no effect. Yes, they were non-violent, but you seem to think that force is only justified when someone is violent. That is incorrect. When someone has demonstrated repeatedly that they refuse to comply, then force is not only justified - it is necessary. Do you have a better idea? Do you think they should put more sugar on their pretty-please? They would have just written her a ticket and moved on as you say they should have - of only they had complied. Their guns were drawn in an effort to PREVENT the need for force as it was meant to reinforce the fact that compliance was not voluntary. But in this case, simple communication was ignored repeatedly, then demands with guns drawn were also ignored, so what's left? Physical force is the only option left.
It went down like that because you complied. Had you not complied, you would have been asked to step out of the car.
Quote from Toozin:
I have been pulled over by police 4 times in my life: twice for speeding, once for talking on my phone, and once for having a tall light out. All perfectly justified on the part of the police. Not once have I been asked to step out of the car. I showed my license and registration, the chip disappeared for 30 fucking minutes, and he comes back with a ticket and a court date. That is all that needs to happen.
It went down like that because you complied. Had you not complied, you would have been asked to step out of the car.
Quote from Toozin:
And honestly that lady was in her right to call 911. If a cop is behaving in a way that makes you suspicious, 911 is the best way to confirm that who you are speaking to is in fact an officer of the law. It wasn't to long ago in my area that some dick got himself a flashing light, a fake badge and a siren and went around masquerading as a plainclothes officer, stealing people's IDs.
I think she was just playing dumb as part of a game. She did not sound like she was scared for her life at all. I think she only reached out to the 911 operator because she realized the cops weren't going to play her game and she wanted to find someone who would.
red chamber dream
the cop easily could have explained why he needed the man to get out of the car (an unusual occurrence at a traffic stop), then if the man still refused after polite explanation, the cop could politely explain that he'll break the window and tase him if he doesn't. then keep warning him, and finally do it as a last resort. the cop was in no danger whatsoever. he got violent on a man instead of simply answering his reasonable questions.
cops should be required to explain why they want you to exit the vehicle. why not? if they can't give you a reason you shouldn't have to do it. i'm sick of cops being able to do whatever they want because of some nebulous notion that they need to protect themselves. cops are armed like soldiers. they really need less protection not more.
there should be tons of hard rules about every common situation, and if a cop fails to follow them exactly, they get suspended no matter how minor the offense. yes, this would make their jobs harder. that's the point.
cops should be required to explain why they want you to exit the vehicle. why not? if they can't give you a reason you shouldn't have to do it. i'm sick of cops being able to do whatever they want because of some nebulous notion that they need to protect themselves. cops are armed like soldiers. they really need less protection not more.
there should be tons of hard rules about every common situation, and if a cop fails to follow them exactly, they get suspended no matter how minor the offense. yes, this would make their jobs harder. that's the point.