"Sequence breaking" (SPLIT) [locked]

nn12000

2006-02-11 05:12:22 pm

Mister ...

About ShineSparking and Wall kicking not Being in Fusion Manuals, Nintendo probably thought that people would've knew how to do it, since you could in Super.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 05:26:57 pm

Chanoire, i never said that i thought the demos never existed. All i said was i never heard about them. The secret techniques and routes were put in the game by nintendo on purpose (but im still having second thoughts on IBJ for ZM)

How can the IBJ be something that nintendo put in on purpose? I dont know what the ZM guide says about these techniques, but im sure it dosnt mention the IBJ. If they wanted us to use this, they would probably know that we could get varia early, skip acid worm, and get expansions and tanks early that might be usally gotten by space jump or high jump. And since they would "like" us to beat the game on a normal basis, we wouldnt skip Imago, and acid worm. Since that one room in Ridley either requires the IBJ, or a well postitioned flyer whatchamacallit.

If Fusion only had the proper timing, we could do a IBJ. But then again, they must of found out about the IBJ in Super, so they changed the speeding range to a much slower rate than Super Metroid had.

Dragonfangs

2006-02-11 05:31:42 pm

Yeah, they did know we would be able to get varia early, they did know we would be able to skip Imago. They made the IBJ in ZM possible because all (or most, whatever) of the sequence breakers complained about it's absence in Fusion. What I think you've missed is that ZM encourages doing things out of order, they want you to "sequence break" it.

The acid worm skip they did not know but that's not using IBJ so it's irrelevant (HBJ is a sideproduct of IBJ and could possibly be something they didn't consider)[/b]

UchihaSasuke

2006-02-11 05:34:55 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

hmif they assumed that every player who bought Fusion played SM, then they weren't very good towards new fans...

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 05:38:35 pm

I understand how ZM encouraged people to sequence break. The thing i didnt get is that they made the game sequence breakable for us. so now i get it.

Chanoire

2006-02-11 06:01:04 pm

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

they must of found out about the IBJ in Super

THEY DIDN'T "FIND OUT" ABOUT IT. THEY PROGRAMMED IT IN.

PUT YOUR CARTRIDGE INTO YOUR SNES. TURN ON CONSOLE. TURN ON TV TOO. GLUE YOUR EYES TO THE SCREEN FOR 10 MINUTES. DON'T BLINK. OBSERVE THE BOMB JUMP IN THE DEMO MOVIE THAT PLAYS WHEN YOU LEAVE THE GAME ALONE AFTER TURNING IT ON, WITHOUT PLAYER INPUT.

STUPID CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN...oh, there we go.

It sounds like you're so in love with your idea that you "solved" the puzzle of why IBJ is in ZM but not SM as being a game speed thing that you're incapable of considering that it might be totally bogus. That and/or you really like the idea of seeing yourself as being able to do something you weren't supposed to be able to do and can't accept that these "secrets" weren't planned. I can think of no other explanation for your conviction that the developers didn't want any of this to happen. (Well, besides Fusion. But that one was programmed entirely differently; the storyline structure requires that it be linear.) Why shouldn't they want you to skip Varia and High Jump and all this stuff? Your own point about there being a 15% ending indicates that most of it was intended to be skippable, considering that nine of those percents are absolutely unavoidable.

[quote="Cracklingdarksamus"]they must of found out about the IBJ in Super[/quote]
THEY DIDN'T "FIND OUT" ABOUT IT.  THEY PROGRAMMED IT IN.

PUT YOUR CARTRIDGE INTO YOUR SNES.  TURN ON CONSOLE. TURN ON TV TOO.  GLUE YOUR EYES TO THE SCREEN FOR 10 MINUTES.  DON'T BLINK.  OBSERVE THE BOMB JUMP IN THE DEMO MOVIE THAT PLAYS WHEN YOU LEAVE THE GAME ALONE AFTER TURNING IT ON, WITHOUT PLAYER INPUT.

STUPID CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN...oh, there we go.

It sounds like you're so in love with your idea that you "solved" the puzzle of why IBJ is in ZM but not SM as being a game speed thing that you're incapable of considering that it might be totally bogus.  That and/or you really like the idea of seeing yourself as being able to do something you weren't supposed to be able to do and can't accept that these "secrets" weren't planned.  I can think of no other explanation for your conviction that the developers didn't want any of this to happen.  (Well, besides Fusion.  But that one was programmed entirely differently; the storyline structure requires that it be linear.)  Why shouldn't they want you to skip Varia and High Jump and all this stuff?  Your own point about there being a 15% ending indicates that most of it was intended to be skippable, considering that nine of those percents are absolutely unavoidable.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 06:42:08 pm

[quote="Chanoire"]

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

they must of found out about the IBJ in Super

THEY DIDN'T "FIND OUT" ABOUT IT. THEY PROGRAMMED IT IN.

PUT YOUR CARTRIDGE INTO YOUR SNES. TURN ON CONSOLE. TURN ON TV TOO. GLUE YOUR EYES TO THE SCREEN FOR 10 MINUTES. DON'T BLINK. OBSERVE THE BOMB JUMP IN THE DEMO MOVIE THAT PLAYS WHEN YOU LEAVE THE GAME ALONE AFTER TURNING IT ON, WITHOUT PLAYER INPUT.

I wish, i dont have Super Metroid. I always go to my friends house to play it. And if you mean the title screens demo, ive never seen it. Is it a big deal? I actually changed my mind after reasearching it on my computer and GBA. And i already agreed WAY earlier that this trick was put in by the developers. So stop putting your caps on and insulting me with your stories that are not true. I never said my "theroy" was true, and i never excpect it to be.

But to continue with the way the developers wanted you to beat with different endings: As you -must- know, the varia is skippibale, but either way, it adds a % too your score. This is the order that they "originally" wanted you to collect to get a low%:

Morph Ball
Missle
Long Beam
E-Tank
Bombs
Unknown Item #1
Power Grip
Ice Beam
Unknown Item #2
Speed Booster
High Jump
Varia Suit
Super Missle
Unknown Item #3
Power Bomb

This does NOT include the secret routes. But they thought that if you use the secret routes, you can skip most of these items. And since most of the secret routes either require the single wall jump, or IBJ, thats why they built it in. Which then were considered sequence breaking. They were not thinking at the time (in my opinion) for us to get a 9% score. One-they thought we couldnt beat it with such low items, or 2-they ONLY intended us to get 15% items as the lowest score. So what im saying is they must of originally thought of us getting 15% as our lowest score. And the other routes they made were made for different paths, which then were turned into routes that low% players used. But either way, the routes like ridley early or whatever, were used for almost every run.

[quote="Chanoire"][quote="Cracklingdarksamus"]they must of found out about the IBJ in Super[/quote]
THEY DIDN'T "FIND OUT" ABOUT IT.  THEY PROGRAMMED IT IN.

PUT YOUR CARTRIDGE INTO YOUR SNES.  TURN ON CONSOLE. TURN ON TV TOO.  GLUE YOUR EYES TO THE SCREEN FOR 10 MINUTES.  DON'T BLINK.  OBSERVE THE BOMB JUMP IN THE DEMO MOVIE THAT PLAYS WHEN YOU LEAVE THE GAME ALONE AFTER TURNING IT ON, WITHOUT PLAYER INPUT.

I wish, i dont have Super Metroid. I always go to my friends house to play it. And if you mean the title screens demo, ive never seen it. Is it a big deal? I actually changed my mind after reasearching it on my computer and GBA. And i already agreed WAY earlier that this trick was put in by the developers. So stop putting your caps on and insulting me with your stories that are not true. I never said my "theroy" was true, and i never excpect it to be.

But to continue with the way the developers wanted you to beat with different endings: As you -must- know, the varia is skippibale, but either way, it adds a % too your score. This is the order that they "originally" wanted you to collect to get a low%:

Morph Ball
Missle
Long Beam
E-Tank
Bombs
Unknown Item #1
Power Grip
Ice Beam
Unknown Item #2
Speed Booster
High Jump
Varia Suit
Super Missle
Unknown Item #3
Power Bomb

This does NOT include the secret routes. But they thought that if you use the secret routes, you can skip most of these items. And since most of the secret routes either require the single wall jump, or IBJ, thats why they built it in. Which then were considered sequence breaking. They were not thinking at the time (in my opinion) for us to get a 9% score. One-they thought we couldnt beat it with such low items, or 2-they ONLY intended us to get 15% items as the lowest score. So what im saying is they must of originally thought of us getting 15% as our lowest score. And the other routes they made were made for different paths, which then were turned into routes that low% players used. But either way, the routes like ridley early or whatever, were used for almost every run.

Qlex

2006-02-11 07:19:26 pm

Okay, so far :
Things that look unforeseen to the game's conceptors.

Shortcut after long beam speed trick, as Nate said.
Some walljumpings, IBJ or other tricks that do a final item collecting of 9% (see my previous post)

Previous post : We could say that having a low % was not complete part of their plan -- ergo sequence breaking, until the european version; although I can't tell which technique couldn't be calculated (you just have sometimes to do a good wall jump over the E-tank, or IBJ, which was foreseen, maybe they didn't expect it to be that good, or they didn't care -_-).
The rest looks like sequence breaking, but seem to be no SB since you can do IBJ and singlewalljump that seem to be created on purpose.
Any other ideas?

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 07:44:33 pm

Good post. Thats excactly how i would of put it. But know i have ran out of ideas.

nn12000

2006-02-11 09:05:46 pm

Mister ...

ACTUALLY< You can skip Power Bombs In Zero Mission. It takes just a little bit of searching, but you can beat Zero Mission without Power bombs. If I need to, I'll show proof.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 09:28:48 pm

I know you can skip power bombs. Theres a secret tunnel in the room where you need power bombs to break those blocks that leads to Mecha Ridley

edit: since you got the power bombs from my other post, i was saying that those 15 items were the items the Nintendo intended us to get. It didnt have anything to do with me not knowing that you can skip the PB

transience

2006-02-11 10:05:15 pm

twenty eight fifty

*shakes head*

i just wrote a long post and deleted it due to the fact that it isn't going to clarify anything. if you think long beam and power bombs and super missiles were mandatory parts of a low% game despite paths designed to skip them, then hey, you guys can continue arguing amongst each other. chanoire and i will take our leave. this is one of those times where i'm glad that i no longer have internet at home.

hopefully in the next game, they give the IBJ in powerup form to help clarify matters.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 10:27:29 pm

i never use those items in my runs. im sure all the people who just play this game for the heck of it, collect all the mandatory items. but those were the items that nintendo intended us to collect. i dont care about these items because they dont do anything for me. i just posted that because that is the order, without sercret routes, that nintendo intended us to get. so it doesnt matter to me either. and i would DEFENTITLY not argue over something like that

Chanoire

2006-02-11 10:50:28 pm

I have one thing to say. Stop thinking you know what "they" intended or wanted or whatever. Because at the end of the day it's entirely speculation on your part. Every point you've tried to make here comes from your assumption of what other people know or do, including what people who play "for the heck of it" do. You don't know what the lowest percent they wanted to be possible was. You don't know how much was anticipated and what wasn't. The end.

Epilogue: That version differences link you seem to be ignoring does make a very good case for 9% being intended as a minimum, since the one obstacle to 9% hard in NTSC was removed for the later European release. Just because they used 15% as the cutoff for some endings doesn't mean they thought 15% was the lowest that could be done, especially considering that 1% Fusion runs must've been done by then and they'd know that there were players capable of managing with very few items.

Endnote: Learn how to use the tags correctly. Like this one: [/quote]

I have one thing to say. Stop thinking you know what "they" intended or wanted or whatever.  Because at the end of the day it's entirely speculation on your part.  Every point you've tried to make here comes from your assumption of what other people know or do, including what people who play "for the heck of it" do.  You don't know what the lowest percent they wanted to be possible was.  You don't know how much was anticipated and what wasn't.  The end.

Epilogue: That version differences link you seem to be ignoring does make a very good case for 9% being intended as a minimum, since the one obstacle to 9% hard in NTSC was removed for the later European release.  Just because they used 15% as the cutoff for some endings doesn't mean they thought 15% was the lowest that could be done, especially considering that 1% Fusion runs must've been done by then and they'd know that there were players capable of managing with very few items.

Endnote: Learn how to use the tags correctly.  Like this one: [/quote]

Smops

2006-02-11 11:30:04 pm

Quote from nn12000:

Now, if you consider getting High Jump before entering Kraid a sequence break, good for you. I consider it out of order.

Excuse me for bringing up an 'old' post, but I just love this statement.

nn12000

2006-02-11 11:38:33 pm

Mister ...

If you love it so much then why don't you use it as your Signature? huh?

Speaking of which, how do you use a quote with the whole qoute box for a sig?

EDIT:: Good for you!

Smops

2006-02-11 11:44:53 pm

Quote from nn12000:

If you love it so much then why don't you use it as your Signature? huh?

Speaking of which, how do you use a quote with the whole qoute box for a sig?

EDIT:: Good for you!

to make a quote, do the following: [quote] <text here> [/quote].

I don't want to put a quote in my signature, there's already a picture in it.

And I guess you still don't get the stupidity of your own post. :P

UchihaSasuke

2006-02-12 12:03:44 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

15% was a cut-off for the endings because of people who are not 1337 enough to beat Mecha Ridley with 5(or 2) missiles and no e-tanks/supermissiles.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-12 12:45:28 am

Quote from Chanoire:

I have one thing to say. Stop thinking you know what "they" intended or wanted or whatever. Because at the end of the day it's entirely speculation on your part. Every point you've tried to make here comes from your assumption of what other people know or do, including what people who play "for the heck of it" do. You don't know what the lowest percent they wanted to be possible was. You don't know how much was anticipated and what wasn't. The end.

look, you are COMPLETLY making these silly comments that are not anything that im saying. I never said i thought i was right about them putting current items in current orders. I never said i was right about anything. And YOU will never know how it was supposed to be. None of us will. So stop pounding me and making lies that arent true. If i have to waste my time arguing you instead of making a post that can help someone else, then consider me gone off this topic, but on something else in this forum. For some reason, i had to be someone would you just had to pound enough times to keep me away.

[quote="Chanoire"]I have one thing to say. Stop thinking you know what "they" intended or wanted or whatever.  Because at the end of the day it's entirely speculation on your part.  Every point you've tried to make here comes from your assumption of what other people know or do, including what people who play "for the heck of it" do.  You don't know what the lowest percent they wanted to be possible was.  You don't know how much was anticipated and what wasn't.  The end. [/quote]

look, you are [b]COMPLETLY[/b] making these silly comments that are not anything that im saying. I never said i thought i was right about them putting current items in current orders. I never said i was right about anything. And YOU will never know how it was supposed to be. None of us will. So stop pounding me and making lies that arent true. If i have to waste my time arguing you instead of making a post that can help someone else, then consider me gone off this topic, but on something else in this forum. For some reason, i had to be someone would you just had to pound enough times to keep me away.

darkarchonisme

2006-02-12 02:54:46 am

Crackly-person-whatever-the-hell: please just find something else to talk about. This subject is 100% unknowable, and your continued barely coherent ranting is dropping the average I.Q. of the board by several points each post. Do us all a favor and just stop typing.

If you never said you were right and did not expect to be, then why do you defend yourself? no answer needed or wanted here.
If a debate is entirely speculation on either end of it, it should stop, in the name of not looking like an idiot.
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case.

insert topic lock request here plz.

Smops

2006-02-12 08:06:55 am

@cracklingdarksamus

So you didn't know for sure? You didn't say any 'facts'?

Quote:

But i know for a fact that IBJ wasn't meant to be put in ZM.

Interesting way to say that you're unsure about something. You keep repeating that the IBJ is an accident.

Quote:

and since ZM works like SM, (speed wise, and control wise) the IBJ was put in both games.

Either you didn't play SM, or you have major eye and brain problems.

You contradict yourself all the time, like these two quotes (in 1 post!)

Quote:

i just said that the TRUE sequence breaking started in Super Metroid

Quote:

It didn't take long to learn about sequence breaking in '86, i saw a website that showed a magizine of Metroid 1 sequence breaking tricks, like the door warp, and doing those other tricks. It was published in '87.

Wow, great logic right there.

Bottom line: Don't go screaming at us for telling you to stop irritating us with your useless dumb posts. It might be better for you to just read the forums for a couple of weeks, learn, and then resume posting again. But hey, it's your choice to look dumb or smart.

@cracklingdarksamus

So you didn't know for sure? You didn't say any 'facts'?

[quote]
But i know for a fact that IBJ wasn't meant to be put in ZM.
[/quote]

Interesting way to say that you're unsure about something. You keep repeating that the IBJ is an accident.

[quote]
and since ZM works like SM, (speed wise, and control wise) the IBJ was put in both games.
[/quote]

Either you didn't play SM, or you have major eye and brain problems.

You contradict yourself all the time, like these two quotes (in 1 post!)

[quote]
i just said that the TRUE sequence breaking started in Super Metroid
[/quote]
[quote]
It didn't take long to learn about sequence breaking in '86, i saw a website that showed a magizine of Metroid 1 sequence breaking tricks, like the door warp, and doing those other tricks. It was published in '87.
[/quote]

Wow, great logic right there.

Bottom line: Don't go screaming at us for telling you to stop irritating us with your useless dumb posts. It might be better for you to just read the forums for a couple of weeks, learn, and then resume posting again. But hey, it's your choice to look dumb or smart.