"Sequence breaking" (SPLIT) [locked]

2006-02-11 02:01:11 am

twenty eight fifty

what sha-nwa said, plus an r that i don't like to pronounce. it would take a group of absolute morons to look over something that obvious. that's like saying they didn't realize you could wall jump up one wall. actually, it's even worse, so much worse that i cannot come up with a comparison.

zero mission was made the way it is to combat fusion. there were complaints about its linearity, excessive story, lack of bomb/walljumping and sequence breaking. and they listened.

UchihaSasuke

2006-02-11 02:12:05 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

the developers of GBA Metroid dislike unintended sequence breaking and will do all the humanly possible to block it (Fusion) or leave in the breaks they want only (ZM)

but they failed since ZM has some unintended breaks, right?

transience

2006-02-11 02:22:44 am

twenty eight fifty

depends on what you term unintentional. there are some people who feel that everything in super metroid is intentional that is not a glitch. i suppose you could say that the zipskip is an intentional break, but i don't think it was programmed to be like that.

off the top of my head, i don't know of anything besides that that's considered unintentional.

UchihaSasuke

2006-02-11 03:38:08 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

intentional and unintentional are not easy to define, i know.

for me, unintentional SBs are those which mess up the game a bit, like the Prime games' SBs.

nate

2006-02-11 09:21:51 am

i've also heard some people (iirc scarlet) say that the shortcut after long beam was unintentional, but i guess that one is much more difficult to prove.

transience

2006-02-11 09:27:10 am

twenty eight fifty

yeah, i'd agree, though i never use it.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 12:05:13 pm

*sigh* Okay, im starting to think that they did put in the IBJ on purpose. But if they put this trick in ON PURPOSE, wouldnt they have mentioned it in the manual? And since they dont like how we sequence break the game, using the IBJ wont be any different. We can skip almost all the items, including high jump, wave, ice beam (for a temporary time) and the others. I also mentioned in the earlyer posts that i thought they put in this ability in the "beta stages" Which is here

Dark Knight: I agree, maybe in the beta stages, they had some rooms and possibly bosses that required to pull off a Infinite bomb jump.

The only reason I thought it was accedental is because Nintendo never knew about the IBJ in Super Metroid. And since no one really used it (or knew about it) in that time, it had to be accedental.

The reason why i beleve they put this ability in the game as a secret (at the most) is because of the room in Ridley with the missle blocks that requires to IBJ to the top. But you can use another stragety, by luring the bug flyer things to where the blocks are.

*sigh* Okay, im starting to think that they did put in the IBJ on purpose. But if they put this trick in ON PURPOSE, wouldnt they have mentioned it in the manual? And since they dont like how we sequence break the game, using the IBJ wont be any different. We can skip almost all the items, including high jump, wave, ice beam (for a temporary time) and the others. I also mentioned in the earlyer posts that i thought they put in this ability in the "beta stages" Which is here

Dark Knight: I agree, maybe in the beta stages, they had some rooms and possibly bosses that required to pull off a Infinite bomb jump.

The only reason I thought it was accedental is because Nintendo never knew about the IBJ in Super Metroid. And since no one really used it (or knew about it) in that time, it had to be accedental.

The reason why i beleve they put this ability in the game as a secret (at the most) is because of the room in Ridley with the missle blocks that requires to IBJ to the top. But you can use another stragety, by luring the bug flyer things to where the blocks are.

nate

2006-02-11 12:16:28 pm

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

Nintendo never knew about the IBJ in Super Metroid.

love the extremely long accidental ibj in the demos for super metroid.

transience

2006-02-11 12:18:03 pm

twenty eight fifty

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

The only reason I thought it was accedental is because Nintendo never knew about the IBJ in Super Metroid. And since no one really used it (or knew about it) in that time, it had to be accedental.

Quote from Chanoire:

IBJ is in one of the demo clips in SM, so it was hardly unknown.

i suggest you leave the demo on. next you're going to tell me the hadouken in Street Fighter is a glitch because it's not in the instruction manual. you don't need a degree in nateology in order to figure out bomb jumping - it's rather self-explanatory.

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

The reason why i beleve they put this ability in the game as a secret (at the most) is because of the room in Ridley with the missle blocks that requires to IBJ to the top. But you can use another stragety, by luring the bug flyer things to where the blocks are.

it is not the bomb jumping that is a "secret" there, but the missile block(s) above the room.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 12:23:47 pm

what demo? i've never seen it.

nn12000

2006-02-11 01:05:34 pm

Mister ...

I don't consider using IBJ or Wallkicking as a means of sequence breaking, although they can be used to get whatever item faster.

Now, if you consider getting High Jump before entering Kraid a sequence break, good for you. I consider it out of order.

Like someone was saying, Sequence break would be like beating Level One in the Dark world of Link to the Past before you got the three pendants, master sword, and stuff. Or maybe in Metroid 2, fighting the omega Metroids deep in SR-388 before the little Alpha Metroid at the beggining. (heh, yeah right)

Qlex

2006-02-11 01:46:54 pm

Zelda : Link's awakening done in 4 mins is a sequence break, but I'm 30-50% sure about that Rolling Eyes

.
Super Metroid's ONEwalljump which means ON A SINGLE WALL might have been unintentional, there is no way of proving sequence breaking wasn't foreseen. But when you see Fusion where walljump and IBJ is impossible, then MZM where all these things got back to "normal", then it's obvious, to my opinion, that MZM's conceptors thought about it.
We could say that having a low % was not complete part of their plan -- ergo sequence breaking, until the european version; although I can't tell which technique couldn't be calculated (you just have sometimes to do a good wall jump over the E-tank, or IBJ, which was foreseen, maybe they didn't expect it to be that good, or they didn't care -_-).
It's all weird since we (or at least I) know they offered us wall jump and IBJ, but we don't have any idea about if they controlled the whole game's walkthrough for each category (100%, any, low...), because I never saw Nintendo talking about it! Do you think we can know anything about it?

Zelda : Link's awakening done in 4 mins is a sequence break, but I'm 30-50% sure about that :roll: .
Super Metroid's ONEwalljump which means ON A SINGLE WALL might have been unintentional, there is no way of proving sequence breaking wasn't foreseen. But when you see Fusion where walljump and IBJ is impossible, then MZM where all these things got back to "normal", then it's obvious, to my opinion, that MZM's conceptors thought about it.
We could say that having a low % was not complete part of their plan -- ergo sequence breaking, [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/0/version_differences_9_percent_hard.php]until the european version[/url]; although I can't tell which technique couldn't be calculated (you just have sometimes to do a good wall jump over the E-tank, or IBJ, which was foreseen, maybe they didn't expect it to be that good, or they didn't care -_-).
It's all weird since we (or at least I) know they offered us wall jump and IBJ, but we don't have any idea about if they controlled the whole game's walkthrough for each category (100%, any, low...), because I never saw Nintendo talking about it! Do you think we can know anything about it?

nate

2006-02-11 01:51:42 pm

Quote from Qlex:

Super Metroid's walljump might have been unintentional

rotfl. people need to just stop. the whole world is laughing at you.

Qlex

2006-02-11 01:56:14 pm

I was saying on one wall, sorry if I look idiot.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 01:56:22 pm

I think Nintendo wanted us to do ALL the categories. And the proof is with the gallery photos:

100% Ending, Samus in a city, walking around
Any% Ending, Samus in a jump suit, full body picture
15% Hard Ending, Samus in full armor, with a close up of her face

100% is (you know it) condsidered 100% runs, any% is considered any% runs, and the 15% run is considered a Low% run. Sp we know that they wanted us to do each of these challenges.

Edit: dude, Nintendo wanted us to have the single wall jump. its not hard anyway, so it wouldnt matter.

nn12000

2006-02-11 02:00:28 pm

Mister ...

Quote from Qlex:

Zelda : Link's awakening done in 4 mins is a sequence break, but I'm 30-50% sure about that Rolling Eyes

It can be done in 4 minutes? Wow.

Quote:

Super Metroid's walljump might have been unintentional, there is no way of proving sequence breaking wasn't foreseen.

If SUper Metroid's Wall Jumping was

Quote:

unintentional,

then why were there etcoons that taught you how to wall jump?

Qlex

2006-02-11 02:06:24 pm

I was saying when you wall jump countless times on the same wall, which allows you to get the wave beam.
Oh, and the Zelda one is tas, here
I'm sorry if I overreacted, I was completely wrong by showing anger like that, but please continue the discussion, I would be grateful.

rain

2006-02-11 03:54:43 pm

TBH I believe most of the sequence breaks in the whole metroid line were intended.

Exeptions would be things like, blue suit in super, space/time or murder beams, skipping all bosses in the original metroid (Here This is for the person who said sequence breaking started in sm.)

Why do I believe this? Because after the very first sequence breaks in metroid caused the game so much love and such great replay value they left it in for all but one of the series' games. And after everyone (Not everyone but numerous people) was up in arms over fusion, they let sequence breaking happen again.

Quote from Yoshi348:

Quote from transience:

2 - it takes a good walljumper to do suitless without gripping.

I nominate to take that out of context and freak everyone out.

Sigged

Chanoire

2006-02-11 04:36:57 pm

I see the average intelligence of this thread has not improved overnight.

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

what demo? i've never seen it.

And because you haven't seen it it doesn't exist? Or did you think I was making it up? Even if you haven't seen it the point that it existed in something official should have been enough for you.

For that matter, there are several "secret" techniques not explicated in the game but discussed in the strategy guide. The charged bomb spread, bomb jump, crystal flash, and bomb shields/special beams are all in the guide but not in the manual, though I think they're all in those demos you don't think exist. (Hint: Turn the game on and don't touch any buttons. Watch. Become enlightened.) Some games are nice enough to not give away bloody everything in the manual and let the player find things out on their own. I suppose you think all the ZM shortcuts are accidental because there isn't a full map included?

(Disclaimer: Regarding SM, I own neither manual nor guide, and have only seen the latter once. But I definitely recall at least two of those techniques discussed in it.)

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

I think Nintendo wanted us to do ALL the categories. And the proof is with the gallery photos

Words fail me. Congratulations on finding actual proof for something, I guess.

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

Edit: dude, Nintendo wanted us to have the single wall jump. its not hard anyway, so it wouldnt matter.

Dude, didn't you pretty much say the opposite earlier in the thread? Or at least express enough doubt on the score of whether it was intentional to make your correcting someone else on this ludicrous.

I see the average intelligence of this thread has not improved overnight.
[quote="Cracklingdarksamus"]what demo? i've never seen it.[/quote]
And because you haven't seen it it doesn't exist?  Or did you think I was making it up?  Even if you haven't seen it the point that it existed in something official should have been enough for you.

For that matter, there are several "secret" techniques not explicated in the game but discussed in the strategy guide.  The charged bomb spread, bomb jump, crystal flash, and bomb shields/special beams are all in the guide but not in the manual, though I think they're all in those demos you don't think exist.  (Hint: Turn the game on and don't touch any buttons.  Watch.  Become enlightened.)  Some games are nice enough to not give away bloody everything in the manual and let the player find things out on their own.  I suppose you think all the ZM shortcuts are accidental because there isn't a full map included?

(Disclaimer: Regarding SM, I own neither manual nor guide, and have only seen the latter once.  But I definitely recall at least two of those techniques discussed in it.)

[quote="Cracklingdarksamus"]I think Nintendo wanted us to do ALL the categories. And the proof is with the gallery photos[/quote]
Words fail me.  Congratulations on finding actual proof for something, I guess.

[quote="Cracklingdarksamus"]Edit: dude, Nintendo wanted us to have the single wall jump. its not hard anyway, so it wouldnt matter.[/quote]
Dude, didn't you pretty much say the opposite earlier in the thread? Or at least express enough doubt on the score of whether it was intentional to make your correcting someone else on this ludicrous.

Dragonfangs

2006-02-11 04:41:48 pm

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

I think Nintendo wanted us to do ALL the categories. And the proof is with the gallery photos

I don't think they really gave any thought about low% before ZM. In ZM they acknowledge what we do with the metroid games, what we want, and they try to give it to us, which in turn eliminates the whole point for some.
But before ZM there's no reward for going low%, hell, there wasn't even a reward based on percentage at all before Fusion/Prime.

Chanoire

2006-02-11 04:47:58 pm

Well, maybe a bit of thought. The unskippable missile tank in Fusion (Bob) shows that they didn't want people getting 0%, as even when it's skipped it disappears from the game later. There was evidently no plan for it to not be gotten, even though everything else can be avoided.

Yoshi348

2006-02-11 04:49:37 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

I'm not sure that it's that they didn't WANT people to get 0%, it's just they didn't think anyone would care or didn't care that they would care.

Chanoire

2006-02-11 04:57:06 pm

Hm, does that room have before and after states? I mean, after when the missile is gotten. If so, then yeah, it would just be a byproduct of creating the after state without checking to see if the missile had been collected, rather than necessarily intentional. But it did always strike me as odd to have that one gimme, a reward for doing what you have no choice in doing.

Dragonfangs

2006-02-11 05:00:05 pm

Yeah, it does have multiple room states, the door gets blown up while you're upgrading to supers.

UchihaSasuke

2006-02-11 05:01:54 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

the manuals never tell you all the moves possible in the game.

the Speed Booster controls were not in Fusion's manual. i learned about shinespark charges on a vid i saw while looking for a guide to get all the items in the game (was missing like 2-3 that i didn't know how to get). so, if the charge wasn't in the manual, it is a glitch or hidden trick?

also, in Zelda games, later items never appear in the manual so you need to learn to use them on your own when you get them (although those items are never hard to figure out)

also, in the F-Zero games there's lots of tricks to gain speed that are not in the manuals. example: blast turning in the original F-Zero. blast turning consists on tapping the accelerator while taking a corner to take the corner more sharply and keep more control of the ship. the manual doesn't have that in it but it is a very basic move that helps. another trick is holding a shoulder button everytime in the race in MV, GPL and Climax to gain bit of speed. you'll drive at an angle and the shil will be leaning to the side but you have to steer it back to go straight. that is not in the manual either and it is a simple move that helps. same with drifting (hold the opposite shoulder button of the direction you are turning in a corner)

point is, manuals are useless to determine what was intended in a game.

the manuals never tell you all the moves possible in the game.

the Speed Booster controls were not in Fusion's manual. i learned about shinespark charges on a vid i saw while looking for a guide to get all the items in the game (was missing like 2-3 that i didn't know how to get). so, if the charge wasn't in the manual, it is a glitch or hidden trick?

also, in Zelda games, later items never appear in the manual so you need to learn to use them on your own when you get them (although those items are never hard to figure out)

also, in the F-Zero games there's lots of tricks to gain speed that are not in the manuals. example: blast turning in the original F-Zero. blast turning consists on tapping the accelerator while taking a corner to take the corner more sharply and keep more control of the ship. the manual doesn't have that in it but it is a very basic move that helps. another trick is holding a shoulder button everytime in the race in MV, GPL and Climax to gain  bit of speed. you'll drive at an angle and the shil will be leaning to the side but you have to steer it back to go straight. that is not in the manual either and it is a simple move that helps. same with drifting (hold the opposite shoulder button of the direction you are turning in a corner)

point is, manuals are useless to determine what was intended in a game.