Random research topic

2012-12-09 03:39:18 pm

Quote from SkippyJr:

Going in either direction eventually results in a crash. I don't recall why/how/when. If Ridley or scanning the loose-your-items elevator causes the crash, we might just have a way around that now...

IIRC from what I heard the freeze happens when you get back to the first room, so this wouldn't really help.

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 05:29:47 am

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 05:28:30 am

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 02:38:39 am

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 02:38:07 am

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 02:32:43 am

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 02:31:50 am

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 02:30:58 am

2012-12-10 02:29:03 am

The game crashes when the first room of the Frigate loads, I don't know of any way to avoid it.

Quote:

I'd like to know what causes Omega Pirate's regeneration phase to vary in length (sometimes it'll be so short that he'll immediately regenerate fully at the 3rd pool, sometimes you'll have time for a 4th pool if you didn't do enough damage).

- Omega Pirate has 4 plates that get regenerated, once they're all regenerated he recovers. So it's not just a single timer until he recovers, each plate recovers individually one after the other.

- The value for their regeneration increases at a rate of 1 per second, and once it reaches 2.5 that plate is regenerated; when it switches to the next plate, the value reverts to 0, but it continues to increase until then. It starts off at 2.5 when he initially disappears, so the first plate recovers immediately.

- It takes 1 second after regenerating a plate to move on to the next plate. Also, after it appears in a pool, it can't switch to a new plate for either 1.8 seconds or when the value reaches 4.3, whichever comes first (Note: I'm not entirely sure about this). After the 4th plate regenerates, Omega Pirate waits until it "moves onto the next plate" to fully recover.

- Now, here's the problem: when Omega Pirate appears in a new pool, and the current plate already finished recovering in the previous pool, it switches to a new plate no matter what. And the value doesn't reset. So since it just recovered a plate, the value's still above 2.5, and the next plate recovers immediately. Thanks, Retro!

Here's the normal progression if he stays in one pool:

Code:

     1          2          3          4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 3.5 > 0 to 3.5 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated       12.3 total

If you were to end a pool while it's recovering the second plate, while the value is 2:

Code:

     1          2          3          4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 2
             2 to 3.8 > 0 to 3.5 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated       12.6 total

Now, same as above, but the value reached 3:

Code:

     1          2          3          4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 3
                        3 to 4.3 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated        9.6 total

So basically, I think Zoid programmed Omega Pirate and did this intentionally, it's the only possible explanation.

The game crashes when the first room of the Frigate loads, I don't know of any way to avoid it.

[quote]I'd like to know what causes Omega Pirate's regeneration phase to vary in length (sometimes it'll be so short that he'll immediately regenerate fully at the 3rd pool, sometimes you'll have time for a 4th pool if you didn't do enough damage).[/quote]
- Omega Pirate has 4 plates that get regenerated, once they're all regenerated he recovers. So it's not just a single timer until he recovers, each plate recovers individually one after the other.

- The value for their regeneration increases at a rate of 1 per second, and once it reaches 2.5 that plate is regenerated; when it switches to the next plate, the value reverts to 0, but it continues to increase until then. It starts off at 2.5 when he initially disappears, so the first plate recovers immediately.

- It takes 1 second after regenerating a plate to move on to the next plate. Also, after it appears in a pool, it can't switch to a new plate for either 1.8 seconds or when the value reaches 4.3, whichever comes first (Note: I'm not entirely sure about this). After the 4th plate regenerates, Omega Pirate waits until it "moves onto the next plate" to fully recover.

- Now, here's the problem: when Omega Pirate appears in a new pool, and the current plate already finished recovering in the previous pool, it switches to a new plate no matter what. And the value doesn't reset. So since it just recovered a plate, the value's still above 2.5, and the next plate recovers immediately. Thanks, Retro!

Here's the normal progression if he stays in one pool:

[code]     1          2          3          4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 3.5 > 0 to 3.5 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated       12.3 total[/code]
If you were to end a pool while it's recovering the second plate, while the value is 2:

[code]     1          2          3          4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 2
             2 to 3.8 > 0 to 3.5 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated       12.6 total[/code]
Now, same as above, but the value reached 3:

[code]     1          2          3          4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 3
                        3 to 4.3 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated        9.6 total[/code]
So basically, I think Zoid programmed Omega Pirate and did this intentionally, it's the only possible explanation.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2012-12-10 04:55:39 am

sabata2: 2012-12-10 04:55:06 am

2012-12-10 04:54:15 am

ANKOKU

So Really that's something the TASers needed to know to allow the fastest kill time while not screwing themselves over with regen time.
Or maybe manipulating the regen time so they can blast away his armor and get to his next vulnerable state quicker.
_{As if the TAS will ever be completed.}

MilesSMB

2012-12-10 05:29:05 am

Quote from sabata2:

So Really that's something the TASers needed to know to allow the fastest kill time while not screwing themselves over with regen time.

I very seriously doubt it'd end up mattering...

sabata2

2012-12-10 05:40:48 am

ANKOKU

Ehh...

I just figured that every little thing needs to be considered for TAS's, and knowing how to manipulate the timings of his regenerations would certainly be something to focus on.
IE. "Takes 4 hits to take him out. Even at fastest, we can't get that final hit in before he gets all his armor. So let's take one hit away from his first opening and force the shorter regen time to get to his next opening (and subsequently the final hits) sooner."
Something like that.

Runners of your calibur focus on Seconds.
TASers focus on Frames.

Or atleast that's how I understand it.

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 05:44:54 am

2012-12-10 05:43:12 am

What?

The only thing that matters is the point where Omega Pirate fully recovers. Even in the worst possible scenario I can't see how a TAS couldn't kill him before then...

Relatedly I kind of wonder if it'd be possible to kill him in two pools if you were to hit him with a PB and a Plasma shot at the exact same time each pool. Would be a pain to test though...

ING-X

Edit history:

ING-X: 2012-12-10 07:20:57 am

2012-12-10 07:18:18 am

yeah

Miles, can you see if letting OP "see" you before killing the 4th plate affects the regen phase? I notice that I almost always get an extremely short regeneration time if he doesn't see me, but usually get a long one if he does.

Hazel

Edit history:

Hazel: 2012-12-10 09:21:18 am

2012-12-10 09:20:44 am

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

Quote from MilesSMB:

Relatedly I kind of wonder if it'd be possible to kill him in two pools if you were to hit him with a PB and a Plasma shot at the exact same time each pool.

Are you thinking that we could shoot a plasma shot so it bounces off the door so it hits OP, then morph and lay a power bomb? because I'm pretty sure plasma beam moves too quickly for that to work.. I guess in theory you could bounce something between two pirates (maybe ice spreader) but, that would be awful to pull off.

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 09:26:00 am

2012-12-10 09:25:52 am

Quote from ING-X:

Miles, can you see if letting OP "see" you before killing the 4th plate affects the regen phase? I notice that I almost always get an extremely short regeneration time if he doesn't see me, but usually get a long one if he does.

No, that doesn't change anything...

Quote from itsPersonnal:

Are you thinking that we could shoot a plasma shot so it bounces off the door so it hits OP, then morph and lay a power bomb?

Wrong order. >_>

Hazel

2012-12-10 09:28:33 am

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

Oh, well that doesn't sound so bad, next time I get a chance I could TAS it.

Skull64

2012-12-10 09:35:58 am

Doesn't the plasma beam have a finite range?

Aruki

Edit history:

Aruki: 2012-12-10 02:57:42 pm

2012-12-10 02:57:33 pm

It'd just be a matter of laying the PB before he spawns and then hitting him with a Plasma shot the first frame he spawns. No bouncing off doors or pirates.

ING-X

2012-12-10 03:14:54 pm

yeah

Quote from MilesSMB:

Quote from ING-X:

Miles, can you see if letting OP "see" you before killing the 4th plate affects the regen phase? I notice that I almost always get an extremely short regeneration time if he doesn't see me, but usually get a long one if he does.

No, that doesn't change anything...

You sure? I swear I get a short regeneration phase way more often if he never sees me... Did you actually check or are you just speaking from experience?

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 04:56:30 pm

MilesSMB: 2012-12-10 03:52:12 pm

2012-12-10 03:19:36 pm

Yes, I actually did check. Just like where you stand it has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's simply a matter of not being fast enough. To have time in the third pool, he needs to still be regenerating the second plate when you end the first pool, and still regenerating the third when you end the second. You have 4.3 seconds for each.

If you were to fail both times (say, by taking 4.4 seconds each time):

Code:

     1          2           3           4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 2.6
                        2.6 to 4.3 > 0 to 2.7
                                                fully regenerated        8.7 total / 0 final pool

Even only failing once:

Code:

     1          2           3             4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 2.6
                        2.6 to 4.3 >   0 to 2.4
                                     2.4 to 4.2 > fully regenerated        10.3 total / 1.8 final pool

Code:

     1            2            3          4
2.5 to 4.3 >   0 to 2.4
             2.4 to 4.2 > 0 to 2.6 > 
                                     2.6 to 4.3 > fully regenerated        10.3 total / 1.7 final pool

You need to be fast enough for both pools to have time:

Code:

     1            2            3          4
2.5 to 4.3 >   0 to 2.4
             2.4 to 4.2 >   0 to 2.4
                          2.4 to 4.2 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated        13.7 total / 5.3 final pool

Yes, I actually did check. Just like where you stand it has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's simply a matter of not being fast enough. To have time in the third pool, he needs to still be regenerating the second plate when you end the first pool, and still regenerating the third when you end the second. You have 4.3 seconds for each.

If you were to fail both times (say, by taking 4.4 seconds each time):

[code]     1          2           3           4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 2.6
                        2.6 to 4.3 > 0 to 2.7
                                                fully regenerated        8.7 total / 0 final pool[/code]
Even only failing once:

[code]     1          2           3             4
2.5 to 4.3 > 0 to 2.6
                        2.6 to 4.3 >   0 to 2.4
                                     2.4 to 4.2 > fully regenerated        10.3 total / 1.8 final pool[/code]
[code]     1            2            3          4
2.5 to 4.3 >   0 to 2.4
             2.4 to 4.2 > 0 to 2.6 > 
                                     2.6 to 4.3 > fully regenerated        10.3 total / 1.7 final pool[/code]
You need to be fast enough for both pools to have time:

[code]     1            2            3          4
2.5 to 4.3 >   0 to 2.4
             2.4 to 4.2 >   0 to 2.4
                          2.4 to 4.2 > 0 to 3.5 > fully regenerated        13.7 total / 5.3 final pool[/code]

ING-X

2012-12-10 04:36:40 pm

yeah

Oh, ok. Must just be confirmation bias or something :P

That actually does help, just means I gotta go a bit faster to avoid getting screwed over.

MilesSMB

2012-12-10 04:45:31 pm

Well, never mind about that simultaneous PB/Plasma idea. I just pulled it off and it makes him get stunned too soon in the second pool; in fact I managed to do over half and he was stunned the instant he reappeared. >_> Screw you too, Omega Pirate. But at least it means I won't have to worry about it in a run yay.

MrSpEeDrUn

2012-12-10 06:33:10 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

what if you do a 2 pool by:
1.shooting a fully charged plasma
2. another fully charged plasma and hitting him with a pb at the same frame
is that possible in a tas?

Hazel

2012-12-10 08:48:32 pm

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

does anything do more than a charged plasma shot? maybe ice spreader?

MilesSMB

2012-12-11 12:38:17 am

Ice Spreader or a Super Missile could probably get a 2 pool fight, but good luck firing it in time.

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-12 07:27:43 am

MilesSMB: 2012-12-12 07:26:59 am

2012-12-12 07:26:17 am

Well, never mind about my never mind. Apparently it is possible to do it without him being stunned immediately, I just got him down to 50 in two pools using a PB + Plasma then just a PB (so + Plasma would have killed him).

The way Omega Pirate seems to work is that, after doing enough damage to stun him, he continues to be vulnerable for a few frames (which is why PBs can do up to 250). I'm guessing that any damage done on the last frame possible counts against the damage it takes to stun him the next pool; if you do 250 with a PB, then the next pool takes over 50 instead of over 100 to stun. I must have originally hit him on the last frame possible with the Plasma shot, guess it requires being a frame or two sooner. Could be wrong, but at any rate a 2 pool should be possible.

sabata2

2012-12-12 03:36:26 pm

ANKOKU

And now we have a new TAS requirement for the inevitable run.

And, does this mean you're going to try for 2pool fight in your sub hour?

kirbymastah

2012-12-12 06:07:09 pm

frame-perfect tricks always sound fun

MilesSMB

2012-12-12 06:51:45 pm

Quote from sabata2:

And, does this mean you're going to try for 2pool fight in your sub hour?

Um, no thanks.

sabata2

2012-12-12 07:00:49 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MilesSMB:

Quote from sabata2:

And, does this mean you're going to try for 2pool fight in your sub hour?

Um, no thanks.

Good, I didn't want to have to wait another 3 years to get one run out of you because of a single trick.

Hazel

2012-12-12 08:53:46 pm

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

So, does OP normally become visible with combat visor during his recharging phase if you do the power bomb trick to make it so he doesn't call in any pirates? or is this something wrong with Dolphin?