Random research topic

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-02 12:33:05 pm

2012-12-02 12:28:40 pm

Went ahead and skipped the first item loss earlier this week:

Yeah, great. How useless. Anyway, been looking into the second item loss (which I was able to skip by editing my position in Dolphin).

- The trigger is the cutscene where you land on Tallon; you lose your items again the frame it starts.
- The trigger is to the left of where you save on the ship. It's actually pretty small, which is kind of annoying to think about.
- Your location is set as soon as the room loads, which is during the "Tracking on enemy target has been lost" text. So, basically, find a way to change your position during that text so you get out of the cutscene trigger's range. Good luck!
- If you save at the ship, the landing cutscene will play if you reload the file. So, if a miracle happens and ILS is found, don't save there.

Also, keeping your items itself wouldn't help in low%. Unlike Echoes and Corruption, which simply do "increase your percent by 1 whenever you touch an item", the percent in Prime is based on what you have. This means that avoiding both item losses would start you off with 8% (3 Missiles / Morph Ball / Bombs / Charge / Varia / Grapple), with more stuff than you need for low%.

Now, it would still help in a different way: you can go back and activate the Tallon item loss at any time, and it gets rid of everything you have. The major thing is that you don't actually need to have the artifacts, you just need to have collected them at some point... You could get Truth, the two in Magmoor, and probably IS Sun. Missiles could also be skipped by going ahead and destroying everything that requires them, AFAIK. There's the major issue of whether the artifact losing would be considered legitimate, though.

On a random note, with percent being "based on what you have", it assumes that 4 max PBs = you have the main PB. Which means that getting all 4 expansions and not the main PB will add only 1% to your total. lol Retro. Also, if it's based on what you have, why doesn't the Phazon Suit count...?

By the way, Missiles cap at 250 and PBs at 8, and if you go above them with codes then they're reduced to their normal cap as soon as you so much as get a refill. Anyone claiming to have gotten 101% is an idiotic liar, it's physically impossible without codes, collecting an upgrade or missile a second time wouldn't do a damn thing in the end.

Went ahead and skipped the first item loss earlier this week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhKyGLpNclo

Yeah, great. How useless. Anyway, been looking into the second item loss (which I was able to skip by editing my position in Dolphin).

- The trigger is the cutscene where you land on Tallon; you lose your items again the frame it starts.
- The trigger is to the left of where you save on the ship. It's actually pretty small, which is kind of annoying to think about.
- Your location is set as soon as the room loads, which is during the "Tracking on enemy target has been lost" text. So, basically, find a way to change your position during that text so you get out of the cutscene trigger's range. Good luck!
- If you save at the ship, the landing cutscene will play if you reload the file. So, if a miracle happens and ILS is found, don't save there.

Also, keeping your items itself wouldn't help in low%. Unlike Echoes and Corruption, which simply do "increase your percent by 1 whenever you touch an item", the percent in Prime is based on what you have. This means that avoiding both item losses would start you off with 8% (3 Missiles / Morph Ball / Bombs / Charge / Varia / Grapple), with more stuff than you need for low%.

Now, it would still help in a different way: you can go back and activate the Tallon item loss at any time, and it gets rid of everything you have. The major thing is that you don't actually need to have the artifacts, you just need to have collected them at some point... You could get Truth, the two in Magmoor, and probably IS Sun. Missiles could also be skipped by going ahead and destroying everything that requires them, AFAIK. There's the major issue of whether the artifact losing would be considered legitimate, though.

On a random note, with percent being "based on what you have", it assumes that 4 max PBs  = you have the main PB. Which means that getting all 4 expansions and not the main PB will add only 1% to your total. lol Retro. Also, if it's based on what you have, why doesn't the Phazon Suit count...?

[size=1]By the way, Missiles cap at 250 and PBs at 8, and if you go above them with codes then they're reduced to their normal cap as soon as you so much as get a refill. Anyone claiming to have gotten 101% is an idiotic liar, it's physically impossible without codes, collecting an upgrade or missile a second time wouldn't do a damn thing in the end.[/size]

rekameohs

2012-12-02 01:30:12 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Ha, that's some really interesting information.

Quote:

On a random note, with percent being "based on what you have", it assumes that 4 max PBs = you have the main PB. Which means that getting all 4 expansions and not the main PB will add only 1% to your total. lol Retro.

lol

nate

2012-12-02 03:14:34 pm

to be fair, the game was only intended/anticipated to be played in one way.

Aruki

Edit history:

Aruki: 2012-12-02 05:20:31 pm

2012-12-02 05:20:21 pm

Can you trigger Phazon Elite with four PB expansions?

sabata2

2012-12-02 05:54:38 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from Paraxade:

Can you trigger Phazon Elite with four PB expansions?

A good question based on how Miles phrased that.

And damned impressive Miles. Now figure out a way to get past the second Item Loss.

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-02 06:37:08 pm

2012-12-02 06:35:59 pm

Room state changes are never based on whether you just have an upgrade, they're always tied somehow to collecting it... I know that the room state for Phazon Elite wouldn't trigger.

Pawbdr

2012-12-02 09:39:59 pm

Say u figure out how to get past the second item loss, u said it won't change low% unless you go back to the ship save point and lose ur items later if it's legit... But how would it change any%? In theory wouldn't u just need the beams, space jump, PB and artifacts and go fight Ridley or am I missing something?? Also is there a YouTube link to the vid, iPhone don't support any vids in the site unfortunately for me >.<

nate

2012-12-02 09:41:52 pm

hit the quote button on his post to get the youtube link out.

rekameohs

2012-12-02 10:06:05 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

The button with the youtube logo in the bottom right is a link to the video as well.

nate

2012-12-02 10:19:08 pm

you can't see that under ios. it doesn't have flash at all and i've been too lazy as yet to provide alternate html5.

Pawbdr

2012-12-02 10:33:11 pm

Ahhh thx guys I've been missin out on vids for a while now lol

rekameohs

2012-12-02 10:56:26 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Gotcha, don't have ios, and that makes sense if the embeds are in flash.

Met_A_Ridley

2012-12-04 06:05:26 am

Well, if anything. It was cool to see the Frigate OoB and even more to see Samus jumping in to her ship with the Varia suit on!
You'd need some mad hacking to get around ILS in MP1. Like manipulating memory or something. That's only possible on TAS...
Sure. Never say never, but this looks not doable. But a damn good tease!
However, the wallcrawling looked terribly difficult, and under time pressure! A couple of mistakes and you need to start over. I bet that aether jumping is far from easy to a normal guy.

But, again, on a scale of 1-10 how cool this particular find was, it's probably a 10! Seeing it's on MP1 which is harder to tame than Echoes.

BioSpark

2012-12-04 06:40:02 am

Quote from Met_A_Ridley:

You'd need some mad hacking to get around ILS in MP1. Like manipulating memory or something. That's only possible on TAS...

i don't think you get how tas works...

kirbymastah

2012-12-04 02:07:08 pm

I was particularly impressed with the aether jumping; I'm guessing he was aether jumping at the corner of the room's bounds, since mp1 wallcrawling for the fail. And without space jump too...

Met_A_Ridley

2012-12-05 05:50:22 am

Quote from BioSpark:

Quote from Met_A_Ridley:

You'd need some mad hacking to get around ILS in MP1. Like manipulating memory or something. That's only possible on TAS...

i don't think you get how tas works...

OK then but I meant in Dolphin or something.
I never play video games on anything else than the original consoles, so I'm not an expert.

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-08 09:17:16 pm

MilesSMB: 2012-12-08 09:07:10 pm

MilesSMB: 2012-12-08 08:58:26 pm

2012-12-08 08:46:33 pm

Some more stuff about the jump/standing state value:

- As mentioned before, the value is 1 when you're in a "jumping state"; this last for ~15 frames after your first jump, and ~7 frames after a space jump (sometimes it's set the frame you press B and sometimes not, not sure why). It's set to 2 (the "falling state") after this until you hit the ground.

- While in the jumping state, your vertical speed increases by .8333... (50/60) per frame, until you hit the upward speed cap (14 if you have Space Jump, 11.666... without it). The first frame of a Space Jump sets your vertical speed to 9. While in the falling state, it decreases by .58333... (35/60) per frame.

- Ghetto jumps add to your initial speed when you jump; i.e., instead of having 0 vertical speed when you start a jump, you start with something like 5 and it continues increasing at the normal rate from there.

- Underwater, your acceleration/deceleration/etc. are reduced, but your upward speed cap is unchanged. This is why underwater ghetto jumps are so broken; your initial speed is set to something higher than you should ever reach underwater, and then further helped by the decreased deceleration rate when you start falling. They fixed this in Echoes by lowering the upward speed cap to 5.25 when underwater.

- While in the jumping state, your horizontal speed constantly decreases, and while in the falling state, it constantly increases. This is why L jumps help, as (assuming you're holding all the way straight forward) holding L fixes your horizontal speed at ~11.8. So basically, you hold L until the jumping state switches to the falling state. Technically it would help to press L during the space jump too, but you typically only spend a few frames below 11.8, and if you're off with your timing then you'd end up losing speed some frames... So I'm not sure if it's worth it.

I still need to look into how R jumps work, but I know that when you're holding R AND L, your horizontal speed is locked; this is why you should press L while you space jump during an R jump, as it can let you avoid the speed decrease completely.

(Also, to try to avoid any potential confusion, the "falling state" doesn't mean you're falling, it means your upward speed is decreasing, so you will continue to move up for a bit after it switches. Just remember that it's set 15 frames after your first jump, which is about a quarter of a second.)

Edit: Found out something else important: Your forward speed is capped at 16.5. Your sideways speed is, uh, not. >_> Oops!

Some more stuff about the jump/standing state value:

- As mentioned before, the value is 1 when you're in a "jumping state"; this last for ~15 frames after your first jump, and ~7 frames after a space jump (sometimes it's set the frame you press B and sometimes not, not sure why). It's set to 2 (the "falling state") after this until you hit the ground.

- While in the jumping state, your vertical speed increases by .8333... (50/60) per frame, until you hit the upward speed cap (14 if you have Space Jump, 11.666... without it). The first frame of a Space Jump sets your vertical speed to 9. While in the falling state, it decreases by .58333... (35/60) per frame.

- Ghetto jumps add to your initial speed when you jump; i.e., instead of having 0 vertical speed when you start a jump, you start with something like 5 and it continues increasing at the normal rate from there.

- Underwater, your acceleration/deceleration/etc. are reduced, but your upward speed cap is unchanged. This is why underwater ghetto jumps are so broken; your initial speed is set to something higher than you should ever reach underwater, and then further helped by the decreased deceleration rate when you start falling. They fixed this in Echoes by lowering the upward speed cap to 5.25 when underwater.

- While in the jumping state, [b]your horizontal speed constantly decreases[/b], and while in the falling state, it constantly increases. This is why L jumps help, as (assuming you're holding all the way straight forward) holding L fixes your horizontal speed at ~11.8. So basically, you hold L until the jumping state switches to the falling state. Technically it would help to press L during the space jump too, but you typically only spend a few frames below 11.8, and if you're off with your timing then you'd end up losing speed some frames... So I'm not sure if it's worth it.

I still need to look into how R jumps work, but I know that when you're holding R AND L, your horizontal speed is locked; this is why you should press L while you space jump during an R jump, as it can let you avoid the speed decrease completely.

(Also, to try to avoid any potential confusion, the "falling state" doesn't mean you're [i]falling[/i], it means your upward speed is decreasing, so you will continue to move up for a bit after it switches. Just remember that it's set 15 frames after your first jump, which is about a quarter of a second.)

Edit: Found out something else important: Your forward speed is capped at 16.5. Your sideways speed is, uh, not. >_> Oops!

Aruki

2012-12-08 09:32:14 pm

Quote from MilesSMB:

- Ghetto jumps add to your initial speed when you jump; i.e., instead of having 0 vertical speed when you start a jump, you start with something like 5 and it continues increasing at the normal rate from there.

soo basically in prime 3 all they had to do was make it so you upward speed gets set to 0 right before it starts increasing, and they didn't need to do crap like making it so you can't space jump.

sabata2

2012-12-08 09:39:10 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MilesSMB:

- Ghetto jumps add to your initial speed when you jump; i.e., instead of having 0 vertical speed when you start a jump, you start with something like 5 and it continues increasing at the normal rate from there.

Edit: Found out something else important: Your forward speed is capped at 16.5. Your sideways speed is, uh, not. >_> Oops!

Sounds like from a technical POV the way you complete a Ghetto is to just barely hit an incline such that your forward motion turns into the diagonal motion vector (ie, bouncing off/climbing up) and then immediately jump.

Also, lol that's an interesting find.

Aruki

Edit history:

Aruki: 2012-12-08 10:28:24 pm

2012-12-08 10:27:47 pm

I think it's more likely related to how the game reacts to slopes; like if you walk up a slope, then in addition to going forward you're also being shifted up so you can walk up the slope instead of just going inside of it. So the vertical movement from walking up the slope gets translated into upward momentum when you jump.

Did you check the other kind of ghetto jump, where you press against a sloped wall after jumping?

SkippyJr

2012-12-09 01:03:49 am

That video is insane. Awesome job!

Is reverse speed capped the same as forward speed?

Here's an old idea sparky had about skipping PQ:
You can break into the escape tunnels early in Cargo Freight Lift to Deck Gamma. After taking the elevator down, bomb jump on top of it (there is a slight invisible lip over it). You're now where the cap explodes during the escape. Hop onto the invisible lip, the lower pipes on the wall, then upper pipes. From here there is a spot on the entry hatch you can reach and bomb, changing the state to that of the escape (by loading the adjacent room I guess). Sparky did it with moonjump, so you'll have to experiment to find the magic spot (I could never find it).

The state of the room is now changed (so roll onto the walkway before it gets enclosed). The escape timer does not run. Going in either direction eventually results in a crash. I don't recall why/how/when. If Ridley or scanning the loose-your-items elevator causes the crash, we might just have a way around that now...

That video is insane.  Awesome job!

Is reverse speed capped the same as forward speed?

Here's an old idea sparky had about skipping PQ:
You can break into the escape tunnels early in Cargo Freight Lift to Deck Gamma.  After taking the elevator down, bomb jump on top of it (there is a slight invisible lip over it).  You're now where the cap explodes during the escape.  Hop onto the invisible lip, the lower pipes on the wall, then upper pipes.  From here there is a spot on the entry hatch you can reach and bomb, changing the state to that of the escape (by loading the adjacent room I guess).  Sparky did it with moonjump, so you'll have to experiment to find the magic spot (I could never find it).

The state of the room is now changed (so roll onto the walkway before it gets enclosed).  The escape timer does not run.  Going in either direction eventually results in a crash.  I don't recall why/how/when.  If Ridley or scanning the loose-your-items elevator causes the crash, we might just have a way around that now...

DJGrenola

2012-12-09 05:41:41 am

I may still have a copy of sparky's video of that.

I'm kind of surprised so many values in the game are floating point.

sabata2

2012-12-09 06:22:42 am

ANKOKU

Quote from Paraxade:

I think it's more likely related to how the game reacts to slopes; like if you walk up a slope, then in addition to going forward you're also being shifted up so you can walk up the slope instead of just going inside of it. So the vertical movement from walking up the slope gets translated into upward momentum when you jump.

That's what I said.
It just didn't come across that way.

ING-X

2012-12-09 10:31:05 am

yeah

I'd like to know what causes Omega Pirate's regeneration phase to vary in length (sometimes it'll be so short that he'll immediately regenerate fully at the 3rd pool, sometimes you'll have time for a 4th pool if you didn't do enough damage). It seems to be somehow based on your position after the 4th armor plate is destroyed, but it's hard to tell. I'm not sure if this has been figured out already or not, but I'd like to know the specifics behind it.

T3

2012-12-09 02:56:11 pm

Quote:

You can break into the escape tunnels early in Cargo Freight Lift to Deck Gamma. After taking the elevator down, bomb jump on top of it (there is a slight invisible lip over it). You're now where the cap explodes during the escape. Hop onto the invisible lip, the lower pipes on the wall, then upper pipes. From here there is a spot on the entry hatch you can reach and bomb, changing the state to that of the escape (by loading the adjacent room I guess). Sparky did it with moonjump, so you'll have to experiment to find the magic spot (I could never find it).

loading the tunnel isn't really the hard part, getting inside of it is. i've tried for a long time to get inside the tunnel to no avail. iirc sparky mentioned a method a while ago on how to get in but i've never gotten it to work.

Quote:

I may still have a copy of sparky's video of that.

well if you do, please upload it. i'd be interested in seeing it.