Query about Prime's plot - someone help me, please!

2004-04-05 07:52:51 pm

I'm glad to have found a board full of intelligent Metroid fans, because I really want someone to help me figure out an issue regarding Metroid Prime's plot that I feel has never been adequately addressed.
It's not about the whole "was Metroid Prime captured or not" issue, because I feel that the PAL plot amendments, even though they created other plot holes, addressed this problem sufficiently well. Nor is it about the "is Prime really an X parasite" issue, because, well, I would think it's fairly obvious that it isn't one. No, I have a different problem - just what the heck IS Metroid Prime, anyway?
From the Log Book scans and so forth, we're told by the game that Prime is a mutated Metroid, cultivated in the Impact Crater and changed by decades of Phazon radiation. But this leaves so many unanswered questions...where did Prime come from? Did it come from Tallon IV, and somehow find its way into the Impact Crater before the Chozos sealed it off? Surely not - the Chozo Lore entries allude to the fact that Prime came with the meteor, as does the fact that Prime seems to be the source of the Phazon. So where does it come from then? Somehow, we need to work out a way in which, probably hundreds of years ago given the size of Prime and the level of decay on Tallon IV, one stray Metroid could have become trapped inside this Phazon-infected meteor, despite the fact that Metroids were created by the Chozo, and, up until the events of NES Metroid, only existed on the resolutely Phazon-free SR-388... :?
Frankly, I'm baffled. I've thought about this for a while, but I just can't work it out, I'm afraid. Does anyone have any theories on this? Help me out here... :(

PS - I live in the UK, so, as a result, I haven't played Zero Mission yet, but I hear that its plot does link up with Prime's in some way. I don't want anyone to spoil any of the game's plot developments for me, but do any of the new developments in Zero Mission go any way to resolving this issue? Thanks for listening...

Thread title:

I'm glad to have found a board full of intelligent Metroid fans, because I really want someone to help me figure out an issue regarding Metroid Prime's plot that I feel has never been adequately addressed.
   It's not about the whole "was Metroid Prime captured or not" issue, because I feel that the PAL plot amendments, even though they created other plot holes, addressed this problem sufficiently well. Nor is it about the "is Prime really an X parasite" issue, because, well, I would think it's fairly obvious that it isn't one. No, I have a different problem - just what the heck IS Metroid Prime, anyway?
   From the Log Book scans and so forth, we're told by the game that Prime is a mutated Metroid, cultivated in the Impact Crater and changed by decades of Phazon radiation. But this leaves so many unanswered questions...where did Prime come from? Did it come from Tallon IV, and somehow find its way into the Impact Crater before the Chozos sealed it off? Surely not - the Chozo Lore entries allude to the fact that Prime came with the meteor, as does the fact that Prime seems to be the source of the Phazon. So where does it come from then? Somehow, we need to work out a way in which, probably hundreds of years ago given the size of Prime and the level of decay on Tallon IV, one stray Metroid could have become trapped inside this Phazon-infected meteor, despite the fact that Metroids were created by the Chozo, and, up until the events of NES Metroid, only existed on the resolutely Phazon-free SR-388... :? 
   Frankly, I'm baffled. I've thought about this for a while, but I just can't work it out, I'm afraid. Does anyone have any theories on this? Help me out here... :(

PS - I live in the UK, so, as a result, I haven't played Zero Mission yet, but I hear that its plot does link up with Prime's in some way. I don't want anyone to spoil any of the game's plot developments for me, but do any of the new developments in Zero Mission go any way to resolving this issue? Thanks for listening...

MetalRidley

2004-04-05 08:11:53 pm

Don't worry about ZM, you're not missing any important plot info on MP.

I have always believed that Metroids were "native" (i.e., introduced by the Chozo) to Tallon IV, and that the Chozo lore is speaking metaphorically. The Metroid that became Prime wasn't brought on a meteor, it just absorbed a whole bunch of Phazon and grew massively. After all, now the heck could a Metroid live within a meteor?

Now, this still leaves the problem of where the other metroids went, since all the other ones you see in the game were brought by the pirates. I think the Chozo probably had the metroids in one area, which was hit by the Phazon meteor. Therefore, they sealed up all the metroids with Prime, and they turned into Fissions. This isn't really supported by anything, but makes more sense to me than "MP rode the meteor!"

The real truth though is: It's a stupid plot hole not fully thought out by Retro. But hey, I for one ain't complaining that they focused more on gameplay than story...

Omega Pirate

2004-04-05 08:26:40 pm

Yeah...that's not a bad explanation...it does make more sense than the whole concept of Prime being some kind of intergalactic space jockey, or some such... :P ...still, I just get the feeling that the writing in the game did allude to the idea that Prime was not a native creature, despite your theory holding more water. I just want to know for sure, though, exactly what it is that Retro want us to think about this - the fact that Retro actually went back and changed the plot to fix plotholes (like the "capture of Prime" thing), but left this one in, even on the second time through, just made me wonder whether or not there was some obvious explanation that I was missing...?
What grated about this whole issue for me was the fact that it's one that seems to get overlooked, even by normally rigorous fans. Like I said, I've heard lots of conjecture about the whole "capture of Prime" debate, but this one just seems to pass through the net. As you so rightly say, it's still undoubtedly an awesome game, and people might view me as just being pedantic or nit-picky when I raise issues such as this. But it does annoy me - I like games to be immersive, and I like the plot to hang together - it just gives the battles that much more meaning. When I don't quite understand what's going on, I don't enjoy otherwise great bits as much, especially in a game like Prime - when the storytelling is so slick and well-constructed as it is for the rest of the game, it becomes especially jarring when you come to a bit that doesn't quite work... :?

Yeah...that's not a bad explanation...it does make more sense than the whole concept of Prime being some kind of intergalactic space jockey, or some such... :P ...still, I just get the feeling that the writing in the game did allude to the idea that Prime was not a native creature, despite your theory holding more water. I just want to know for sure, though, exactly what it is that Retro want us to think about this - the fact that Retro actually went back and changed the plot to fix plotholes (like the "capture of Prime" thing), but left this one in, even on the second time through, just made me wonder whether or not there was some obvious explanation that I was missing...?
   What grated about this whole issue for me was the fact that it's one that seems to get overlooked, even by normally rigorous fans. Like I said, I've heard lots of conjecture about the whole "capture of Prime" debate, but this one just seems to pass through the net. As you so rightly say, it's still undoubtedly an awesome game, and people might view me as just being pedantic or nit-picky when I raise issues such as this. But it does annoy me - I like games to be immersive, and I like the plot to hang together - it just gives the battles that much more meaning. When I don't quite understand what's going on, I don't enjoy otherwise great bits as much, especially in a game like Prime - when the storytelling is so slick and well-constructed as it is for the rest of the game, it becomes especially jarring when you come to a bit that doesn't quite work... :?

nate

2004-04-05 08:40:13 pm

omega pirate, mir ist deine sig ziemlich amüsant.

MetalRidley

2004-04-05 09:19:02 pm

Yeah, I know what you mean. I for one don't really worry about the story when I'm playing the game, I just keep going. Later I think about what happened and think, why did that happen or what was that doing there? But while playing, I'm just looking for the way to kill that next thing. Wink

I guess the reason that there are all these plot holes is the way that Retro puts so much story into the game. I mean, nobody finds plotholes in the other games, since they (sans Fusion) didn't really try to explain things much. So props to Retro anyway for immersing us in so much info, even if it doesn't always work.

Omega Pirate

2004-04-06 08:19:52 am

Yeah, I know I probably am just picking holes here - it's good to see that they're putting effort into giving us plot-driven Metroids nowadays. I really feel it helps to expand the scope of the series. Let's just hope that, in future, the plots make a little more sense... Wink

Quote:

omega pirate, mir ist deine sig ziemlich amüsant.

Ah, danke schön, njahnke! Es gefällt mir, dass jemand hier sich mein sig verstanden hat... Laughing

Bazooka Joe

2004-04-06 10:13:08 am

well if you pick at a hole it'll only get bigger.
MP coming in on a meteor doesn't seem to unlikely to me. The only reason we need oxygen is to process carbohydrates to get energy. if we don't get oxygen then your body uses a different process which would eventually kill us but I don't need to get into that. metroids which operates on "life energy" as you might call it, wouldn't need oxygen.

On metroid galaxy guide. they say that the meteor is a chunk of planet zebes which came off when samus blew it up. that would explain why a metroid was on it but the only problem is where did the phazon come from? maybe a collision from an asteroid but that's still pretty odd. well any way, By the time MP got to tallon 4, it's probably alreay matured enough to survive the impact.

Omega Pirate

2004-04-06 10:34:51 am

Quote:

On metroid galaxy guide. they say that the meteor is a chunk of planet zebes which came off when samus blew it up. that would explain why a metroid was on it but the only problem is where did the phazon come from? maybe a collision from an asteroid but that's still pretty odd. well any way, By the time MP got to tallon 4, it's probably alreay matured enough to survive the impact.

Hmmm...well, that's sounds more like a hypothesis that someone else came up with than anything that was actually conveyed to us in the actual game, doesn't it? Plus, there' a major problem with that theory - namely, that Zebes was only destroyed at the end of Super Metroid, which is set AFTER Prime... :? ...and even if Zebes WAS destroyed at the end of NES Metroid, that still doesn't work, because the meteor impact is described to having happened decades, maybe even centuries ago, but we know that Prime takes place in the immediate aftermath of NES Metroid...I dunno, I think that Galaxy Guide overstretched there. Still, until Retro themselves provide us with a decent explanation, our own theories are all we have to go off... :|

[quote]On metroid galaxy guide. they say that the meteor is a chunk of planet zebes which came off when samus blew it up. that would explain why a metroid was on it but the only problem is where did the phazon come from? maybe a collision from an asteroid but that's still pretty odd. well any way, By the time MP got to tallon 4, it's probably alreay matured enough to survive the impact.[/quote]

Hmmm...well, that's sounds more like a hypothesis that someone else came up with than anything that was actually conveyed to us in the actual game, doesn't it? Plus, there' a major problem with that theory - namely, that Zebes was only destroyed at the end of Super Metroid, which is set AFTER Prime... :? ...and even if Zebes WAS destroyed at the end of NES Metroid, that still doesn't work, because the meteor impact is described to having happened decades, maybe even centuries ago, but we know that Prime takes place in the immediate aftermath of NES Metroid...I dunno, I think that Galaxy Guide overstretched there. Still, until Retro themselves provide us with a decent explanation, our own theories are all we have to go off... :|

Metroid Prime

2004-04-06 02:49:02 pm

Dunno if this was already stated, but the Chozo created Tallon IV. Would that mean anything?

skynes

2004-04-06 03:36:46 pm

I thought that the Fission Metroids were the ones that the Pirates experimented upon and messed them up with Phazon (creating the ones in Phazon Mines)

the Onesi n Impact crater could have been naturally formed throigh Phazon contact.

You never know Prime may actually be an old Fission that got even more Phazon than usual!

Metroid Prime

2004-04-06 03:50:24 pm

Accoring to the log book things, he ATE the Phazon!

Yoshi348

2004-04-06 07:38:30 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

#1, the Chozo didn't create the entire planet. They're not THAT l33t. And #2, the Chozo Lore (NTSC, at least) is meant to be taken poetically, not literally.

Syl

2004-04-06 08:03:58 pm

Likewise, im under the impression that larva metroids are *NOT* space-worthy. If theyre in space at all in the games, etc. theyre in those damned tubes.

Likewise, noone ever said that Tallon IV had oxygen Wink

Of course, Zebes has to have some oxygen (but not much, considering that samus couldn't live there long without chozo DNA, which im betting is used to absorbing something other than oxygen.) I highly doubt that SR388 had much oxygen, unless my theory on SRX is true. (Atmospheric stabilizers = radiation creators)

anyway, back to metroid prime.

Prime was obviously hopped up on some crazy phazon. He was chilling out in the CORE of the ground zero, literally swimming in RAW phazon most likely. Of course he would get some mad mutation, seeing what some tweaked phazon did to the space pirates. I'm sure that there were other creatures down there as well, however, because prime is a metroid. It obviously won out and most likely ate the damn things. Metroids don't seem to like to eat other metroids in the larval stage however, (motherly instict) but im sure that once they get stronger cannibalism is possible.

We have absolutely no clue where the hell the meteor or phazon came from, and I'm refusing to think that phazon came from SR388. The Tallon IV chozo, though obviously more organicly oriented than the close cousins on Zebes or (not so close) SR388 brethren, most likely did keep in touch with eachother. Metroids were devoloped on Zebes, before mother brain went all crazy and evil-like. Mother brain HAD to have known about the tallon IV chozo's.

Of course, i have no clue where i could continue from there... lots of different options.

but perhaps she sent them a "gift" of a few metroids whenever she commited genocide on the Zebes chozo. The tallon IV chozo probably killed the majority, but somehow one got away?

The Tallon IV metroids asked for a metroid? prehaps they wanted to see if the creatures X destroying capabilities could destroy phazon as well?

... hell if i know.

Likewise, im under the impression that larva metroids are *NOT* space-worthy.  If theyre in space at all in the games, etc. theyre in those damned tubes.

Likewise, noone ever said that Tallon IV had oxygen  :wink: Of course, Zebes has to have some oxygen (but not much, considering that samus couldn't live there long without chozo DNA, which im betting is used to absorbing something other than oxygen.)  I highly doubt that SR388 had much oxygen, unless my theory on SRX is true.  (Atmospheric stabilizers = radiation creators)

anyway, back to metroid prime.

Prime was obviously hopped up on some crazy phazon.  He was chilling out in the CORE of the ground zero, literally swimming in RAW phazon most likely.  Of course he would get some mad mutation, seeing what some tweaked phazon did to the space pirates.  I'm sure that there were other creatures down there as well, however, because prime is a metroid.  It obviously won out and most likely ate the damn things.  Metroids don't seem to like to eat other metroids in the larval stage however, (motherly instict) but im sure that once they get stronger cannibalism is possible.

We have absolutely no clue where the hell the meteor or phazon came from, and I'm refusing to think that phazon came from SR388.    The Tallon IV chozo, though obviously more organicly oriented than the close cousins on Zebes or (not so close) SR388 brethren, most likely did keep in touch with eachother.  Metroids were devoloped on Zebes, before mother brain went all crazy and evil-like.  Mother brain HAD to have known about the tallon IV chozo's.

Of course, i have no clue where i could continue from there... lots of different options.

but perhaps she sent them a "gift" of a few metroids whenever she commited genocide on the Zebes chozo.  The tallon IV chozo probably killed the majority, but somehow one got away?

The Tallon IV metroids asked for a metroid? prehaps they wanted to see if the creatures X destroying capabilities could destroy phazon as well?

... hell if i know.

MetalRidley

2004-04-11 12:23:18 am

I'm pretty sure that Phazon came from the meteor, as that was stated in the Space Pirate logs, to be taken literally. I really doubt it came from Zebes, since there's certainly no Phazon to be found there.

As for why there was a metroid on Tallon IV, I'm thinking about the Fusion manual, where it says "metroid" is chozo lingo for "ultimate warrior." Perhaps the Chozo kept some metroids around as a bodyguard force on each of their planets, and the meteor very unluckily happened to hit their containment area. After all, the impact crater Fission metroids couldn't have been brought by the pirates, as they couldn't get in in the first place. The phazoned metroids ate everything else there, probably including a few chozo, and one grew super big and turned into a boss, with a hardened shell.

On a side note, it's too bad that MP couldn't have absorbed pirate weaponry like in the NTSC logs, cuz that would work perfectly with the beam troopers and their armor. MP's shell even looks like trooper skin...

I'm pretty sure that Phazon came from the meteor, as that was stated in the Space Pirate logs, to be taken literally. I really doubt it came from Zebes, since there's certainly no Phazon to be found there.

As for why there was a metroid on Tallon IV, I'm thinking about the Fusion manual, where it says "metroid" is chozo lingo for "ultimate warrior." Perhaps the Chozo kept some metroids around as a bodyguard force on each of their planets, and the meteor very unluckily happened to hit their containment area. After all, the impact crater Fission metroids couldn't have been brought by the pirates, as they couldn't get in in the first place. The phazoned metroids ate everything else there, probably including a few chozo, and one grew super big and turned into a boss, with a hardened shell.

On a side note, it's too bad that MP couldn't have absorbed pirate weaponry like in the NTSC logs, cuz that would work perfectly with the beam troopers and their armor. MP's shell even looks like trooper skin...

Rox

2004-04-11 09:01:28 am

Say... I'm too lazy to look it up, but do the pirate data on Phazon mutation mention any sort of mental development? I remember reading the correct Phazon thingy can make a creature evolve extremely quickly (and thus shortening its life span), but does it mention any increase in intelligence?

I've always been bothered by the fact that Prime looks nothing like a metroid at all, but it just struck me... Could the huge amounts of raw Phazon have infected the little tiny metroid's intelligence somehow? It could've suddenly become sentient all of a sudden, and figured out a way to manipulate the way the phazon works on it. That is, goodbye worthless mandibles, hello powerful tentacles. And eyes.

Wild theory, but it's the only good connection between "metroid" and "prime" that I've found so far...

Syl

2004-04-11 09:21:34 am

it never says anything about intelligence that i can remember. it actually states that it makes creatures FAR more aggressive, I'm sure this also applies to the elite pirates, they had to exchange brains for brawn. If it does modify intelligence for the better, im sure it would mention it in one of the pirate logs that deal with elite pirates.. but, im pretty sure it just makes them horribly aggressive.

I was thinking the fission metroids were just metroids that prime had "spawned" itself over the (years?) and they were exposed to some pretty heavy duty phazon, but nothing of the the strength of what prime was.

Boost Ball

2004-04-29 12:14:05 am

well I think theres a possibility it couldve been from SR388 a very long time ago before the metroid events. It couldve gotten frozen in space then hit Tallon IV thaw for years and slowly mutate in Prime. im new to these bordes and aint that old for a metroid fan so well, ya.

Kaotikeval

2004-04-29 01:36:22 am

Isn't "The Worm" described in the Chozo lores a metaphor for Prime?? If so, they knew of his existence and knew that he would only grow in size and strength and feared him greatly. If that is true, a single Metroid might've been sent down there by the Chozo in a study to see what, the then unknown Phazon compound was made of, and to see if it was harmful... and was turned into Prime after many years... Or either, the location where the meteor struck Tallon IV, there might've been a Metroid containment facility constructed there and that single Metroid was caught in the impact but didn't die. He could've been the one to produce the Metroids that later, after many years, became what are now the Fission Metroids and he became Prime. Because the battle against his second form, as we all know too well, he can produce his very own Metroids...

BUT, if "The Worm" meant Phazon, well, then forget what I just said. [eyes_shifty]

Also, I think that in Echoes they will (hopefully) explain where the Phazon came from, and with that, Samus will encounter even tougher foes and creatures alike because that planet will be Phazon's native home and the beings there would know of its properties and how to correctly control it, so they would have had many years to produce monstrosities to create a rather formidable army... Of course this is all pure speculation, but I'm sure that Phazon will at least be explained to a point and let us all rest.

I mean it is a direct sequel to Metroid Prime and not Metroid 5, right? So in this separate story line, Phazon will be explain in some fashion and maybe even Chozo's will make an appearance...

Isn't "The Worm" described in the Chozo lores a metaphor for Prime??  If so, they knew of his existence and knew that he would only grow in size and strength and feared him greatly.  If that is true, a single Metroid might've been sent down there by the Chozo in a study to see what, the then unknown Phazon compound was made of, and to see if it was harmful...  and was turned into Prime after many years...  Or either, the location where the meteor struck Tallon IV, there might've been a Metroid containment facility constructed there and that single Metroid was caught in the impact but didn't die.  He could've been the one to produce the Metroids that later, after many years, became what are now the Fission Metroids and he became Prime.  Because the battle against his second form, as we all know too well, he can produce his very own Metroids...

BUT, if "The Worm" meant Phazon, well, then forget what I just said. [eyes_shifty]

Also, I think that in Echoes they will (hopefully) explain where the Phazon came from, and with that, Samus will encounter even tougher foes and creatures alike because that planet will be Phazon's native home and the beings there would know of its properties and how to correctly control it, so they would have had many years to produce monstrosities to create a rather formidable army...  Of course this is all pure speculation, but I'm sure that Phazon will at least be explained to a point and let us all rest.

I mean it is a direct sequel to Metroid Prime and not Metroid 5, right?  So in this separate story line, Phazon will be explain in some fashion and maybe even Chozo's will make an appearance...

Dark_T_Zeratul

2004-04-29 01:54:13 am

I'm pretty sure that "The Worm" refers to the Phazon rather than the Metroid Prime. As for Echoes being a direct sequel, well, we don't know that. We DO know that it's not Metroid 5, since Samus still has her old suit, but it could just as easily come after Super Metroid in the timeline.

Kaotikeval

2004-04-29 02:29:47 am

Quote from Dark_T_Zeratul:

I'm pretty sure that "The Worm" refers to the Phazon rather than the Metroid Prime. As for Echoes being a direct sequel, well, we don't know that. We DO know that it's not Metroid 5, since Samus still has her old suit, but it could just as easily come after Super Metroid in the timeline.

True, true. But I'm always partial to my theories 8)