Metroid section launched (with two Speed Runs)!

Metroid Prime

2004-02-22 06:40:23 pm

Quote from Toozin:

Quote from Red Scarlet Bulleta:

Probably nifty to watch though.

I won't give them the satisfaction. :P

I repeat this phrase. :D

Arc

2004-02-22 08:02:15 pm

1. It is my video. I am JeffC.
2. There is no cheating, everything is done within the limits of the game.
3. To say that it is 'retarded' when almost no one has come within even double that time is pretty ridiculous.
4. I thought you all might like it since you are Metroid fans. I have seen Red Scarlet's runs, they were both inspirational and helpful to me. I wanted to show that a lot of what is done in them is unnecessary to complete the game.
5. Other people are enjoying them (and I enjoy it); if you don't want to see it then you are only denying yourself satisfaction, not me.

Toozin

2004-02-22 08:09:52 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

You have to understand, Arc, that we're pretty purist here. We like our runs to be genuine and duplicable on consoles. I'm sure it's a very lovely run, but as I said, it's not real. Do the same thing on a console with no cheat devices, then I'll be impressed.

Radix

2004-02-22 09:44:54 pm

Quote from Arc:

if you don't want to see it then you are only denying yourself satisfaction

<homer simpson>
Sir I demand satisfaction!

PS, cheated runs are lame.

Red Scarlet

2004-02-22 10:57:04 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Mmk, I watched the video...

1. It is my video. I am JeffC.

Cool, hiya.

2. There is no cheating, everything is done within the limits of the game.

Actually, I have to call BS on this part. Here are some key examples:

First off, in the actual game, you can't re-record/load a state even once, and definitely not 2590 times. Right there that exceeds a limit in the game.

At 2:08, you shoot up at a Skree, which I previously thought hit you, and then the next one..you shoot from the side as it's above you. I don't get how the shot hit there.
But it could be due to the video quality that it is not shown that you aim upward.

During the Kraid fight, I find it hard to believe that for the whole 2nd half, you never get hit by anything and are being bounced off from explosions. And I have never been able to jump back up to either platform in Kraid's room after going down to the Energy Tank without having Hi-Jump boots; I was trapped and forced to die. That jump (as well as possibly a couple others) exceeds the natural jumping limit.

And you should have gotten knocked off of the reforming blocks during your escape from Kraid's lair at least twice, Samus' body was low enough to get smacked by the block.

Of course the time is good when you can get a missile refill whenever you need to, as the randomness factor is removed via reloading a movie.

3. To say that it is 'retarded' when almost no one has come within even double that time is pretty ridiculous.

Of course it's a good time when you can save/load state so many times. And actually you missed something that could have saved you a couple seconds in Kraid's lair. :)

4. I thought you all might like it since you are Metroid fans. I have seen Red Scarlet's runs, they were both inspirational and helpful to me. I wanted to show that a lot of what is done in them is unnecessary to complete the game.

Thanks for the kind words.
I think that this video, as well as the infamous Mario 3 video sure are fun to watch, but are hardly legitimate runs. They're the "impossible in the real world perfect" run (well except for a shortcut you missed) that we would all love to see or do, but of course are a near-statistical impossibility. My run was done with 1 shot, not 2590. I could do pretty darn good with that many retries.

Your run is fun to watch, but shouldn't be counted as an actual run, IMO. Still an interesting route, nonetheless.

5. Other people are enjoying them (and I enjoy it); if you don't want to see it then you are only denying yourself satisfaction, not me.

To each his or her own, but really, videos like this are taking away from the people who really can play the game good/decent, as the "better" doctored runs get more attention/prestige; these are more special effects than a gameplay movie, but I think I remember you or some other video maker stating that at your site anyway that your vids are just more "what-ifs" than anything.

One of the most magical things about games is envisioning the perfect playthrough. Games keep their magic because it will never likely be done. But now, they sadly are...and the magic is disappearing.

Mmk, I watched the video...

[b]1. It is my video. I am JeffC.[/b]

Cool, hiya.

[b]2. There is no cheating, everything is done within the limits of the game.[/b]

Actually, I have to call BS on this part.  Here are some key examples:

First off, in the actual game, you can't re-record/load a state even once, and definitely not 2590 times.  Right there that exceeds a limit in the game.

At 2:08, you shoot up at a Skree, which I previously thought hit you, and then the next one..you shoot from the side as it's above you.  I don't get how the shot hit there.
But it could be due to the video quality that it is not shown that you aim upward.

During the Kraid fight, I find it hard to believe that for the whole 2nd half, you never get hit by anything and are being bounced off from explosions.  And I have never been able to jump back up to either platform in Kraid's room after going down to the Energy Tank without having Hi-Jump boots; I was trapped and forced to die.  That jump (as well as possibly a couple others) exceeds the natural jumping limit.

And you should have gotten knocked off of the reforming blocks during your escape from Kraid's lair at least twice, Samus' body was low enough to get smacked by the block.

Of course the time is good when you can get a missile refill whenever you need to, as the randomness factor is removed via reloading a movie.

[b]3. To say that it is 'retarded' when almost no one has come within even double that time is pretty ridiculous.[/b]

Of course it's a good time when you can save/load state so many times.  And actually you missed something that could have saved you a couple seconds in Kraid's lair. :)

[b]4. I thought you all might like it since you are Metroid fans. I have seen Red Scarlet's runs, they were both inspirational and helpful to me. I wanted to show that a lot of what is done in them is unnecessary to complete the game.[/b]

Thanks for the kind words.
I think that this video, as well as the infamous Mario 3 video sure are fun to watch, but are hardly legitimate runs.  They're the "impossible in the real world perfect" run (well except for a shortcut you missed) that we would all love to see or do, but of course are a near-statistical impossibility.  My run was done with 1 shot, not 2590.  I could do pretty darn good with that many retries.

Your run is fun to watch, but shouldn't be counted as an actual run, IMO.  Still an interesting route, nonetheless.

[b]5. Other people are enjoying them (and I enjoy it); if you don't want to see it then you are only denying yourself satisfaction, not me.[/b]

To each his or her own, but really, videos like this are taking away from the people who really can play the game good/decent, as the "better" doctored runs get more attention/prestige; these are more special effects than a game[u]play[/u] movie, but I think I remember you or some other video maker stating that at your site anyway that your vids are just more "what-ifs" than anything.

One of the most magical things about games is envisioning the perfect playthrough.  Games keep their magic because it will never likely be done.  But now, they sadly are...and the magic is disappearing.

Xoc

2004-02-22 11:21:55 pm

These runs, although technically "within the physics of the game", are still cheat runs--if you slow down the emulation, you're giving yourself a pretty big advantage, as far as reaction time goes. Of course, everyone already knew that, but the thing that bugs me is that you never come right out and say it. You didn't post a link to the run, saying "this is entertainment and art and a cool video, and the ends justify the means", you simply said

Quote:

check out my 17 minute run

A little misleading, no?

When I first saw the SMB3 "time attack" video, I was really impressed, because I didn't know it was edited together from a million savestate-retries. It wasn't advertised as such. The fact that you didn't explain AHEAD of time that it's "cheated" is the proof of your intentions.

I haven't watched the video, but if it's anything like the SMB3 video, I'm sure it's very entertaining. All I'm saying is, be a little more UPFRONT about it.

nate

2004-02-22 11:31:34 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet Bulleta:

One of the most magical things about games is envisioning the perfect playthrough. Games keep their magic because it will never likely be done. But now, they sadly are...and the magic is disappearing.

makes me wonder if i will one day become like the evil villains i saw in cartoons as a kid. coming up with a diabolical plot to erase all emulation technology from the world's computers sounds pretty evil, but would in fact solve this horrific problem scarlet has brought up.

Faust

2004-02-22 11:32:12 pm

Quote from Xoc:

I haven't watched the video, but if it's anything like the SMB3 video, I'm sure it's very entertaining. All I'm saying is, be a little more UPFRONT about it.

Are you referring to Morimoto's SMB3 11 minute video? If so then that's bullshit. While it is an amazing video, if it's savestate ridden then the experience is cheapened.

Sarah

2004-02-22 11:57:16 pm

I could tell the SMB3 video was faked because I could see the timer counting down in odd intervals. :x

Faust

2004-02-23 12:01:38 am

I guess I was just so awed by what I was seeing that I forgot about questioning its validity.

*puts on the dunce cap again and goes and sits in the corner*

Sarah

2004-02-23 12:11:49 am

I was awed by it myself at first, but I rewatched it a few times checking for inconsistencies and saw that and a few others. Then saw the official word from the author that it was fake a few days later.

Xoc

2004-02-23 12:15:27 am

I never even thought to look at the timer...just naïve, I guess. But I was definitely disappointed to find out it was fake.

Imagine playing basketball with five-foot stilts.

Yoshi348

2004-02-23 06:40:31 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

The first time I saw the SMB3 vid, the first thing I thought was that the fireballs went too fast; I was thinking turbo controller as the explaination for that, cause I didn't think someone would have SO MUCH TIME on their hands to pull that stunt off.

Arc

2004-02-23 10:22:25 pm

(To Red Scarlet)

Cheating means using invincibilty, or having items at the start, etc.

2 shots were fired, the first hitting the skree. You imply that I would somehow be able to hack into the rom and then I would use this power to hit one enemy in the game without pressing up, when it is fairly easy to do so.

I ended the Kraid fight with 19 E and 2 tanks, how you determined that I 'never got hit' I don't know. Here is a line straight out of the boss guide on gamefaqs: "while he is flashing from being
hit from the bomb he can't hurt you by touching you."

I am sorry that you died in the lava, but it is entirely possible to jump out. It is just harder to do because of the lava's properties. What the other alleged non-standard jumps are I don't know.

Samus actually won't get knocked off of the vertical column until she is inside of 2 blocks, not 1.

Some time is saved from the missile refills. Most of it is from skipping Norfair though, wouldn't you say?

Someone else attempted a time attack with rerecording and it was 30 minutes long.

I don't know what you mean I could have skipped in Kraid's lair to speed it up, but you would have said what it is if you wanted to, so I won't ask.

It counts the number of recordings everytime something is undone. Many of these are from refilling the missiles. Others are for very minor things like jumping a little higher than needed. It's mainly done to make the video look more precise.

Here is the purpose, straight from Bisqwit. "These videos have been made solely for the reason that they should be entertaining to watch." I don't consider myself the best Metroid player in the world. Perhaps you are. It shows how a human could theoretically perform a run, if s/he could overcome her/his capability to be flawed.

You have a good idea in separating 'speed run' from 'time attack'. I suppose then we could say that you have the best speed run and I have the best time attack. Perhaps my time attack can help you on your next speed run attempt.

Arc

(To Red Scarlet)

Cheating means using invincibilty, or having items at the start, etc.

2 shots were fired, the first hitting the skree. You imply that I would somehow be able to hack into the rom and then I would use this power to hit one enemy in the game without pressing up, when it is fairly easy to do so.

I ended the Kraid fight with 19 E and 2 tanks, how you determined that I 'never got hit' I don't know. Here is a line straight out of the boss guide on gamefaqs: "while he is flashing from being
hit from the bomb he can't hurt you by touching you."

I am sorry that you died in the lava, but it is entirely possible to jump out. It is just harder to do because of the lava's properties. What the other alleged non-standard jumps are I don't know.

Samus actually won't get knocked off of the vertical column until she is inside of 2 blocks, not 1.

Some time is saved from the missile refills. Most of it is from skipping Norfair though, wouldn't you say?

Someone else attempted a time attack with rerecording and it was 30 minutes long.

I don't know what you mean I could have skipped in Kraid's lair to speed it up, but you would have said what it is if you wanted to, so I won't ask.

It counts the number of recordings everytime something is undone. Many of these are from refilling the missiles. Others are for very minor things like jumping a little higher than needed. It's mainly done to make the video look more precise.

Here is the purpose, straight from Bisqwit. "These videos have been made solely for the reason that they should be entertaining to watch." I don't consider myself the best Metroid player in the world. Perhaps you are. It shows how a human could theoretically perform a run, if s/he could overcome her/his capability to be flawed.

You have a good idea in separating 'speed run' from 'time attack'. I suppose then we could say that you have the best speed run and I have the best time attack. Perhaps my time attack can help you on your next speed run attempt.

Arc

Xoc

2004-02-23 11:07:42 pm

I answer this quote

Quote:

Cheating means using invincibilty, or having items at the start, etc.

with one from myself:

Quote:

if you slow down the emulation, you're giving yourself a pretty big advantage, as far as reaction time goes.

Also:

Quote:

You have a good idea in separating 'speed run' from 'time attack'.

What if we just called them "cheat runs"?

nate

2004-02-23 11:10:33 pm

Quote from Arc:

Here is the purpose, straight from Bisqwit. "These videos have been made solely for the reason that they should be entertaining to watch." I don't consider myself the best Metroid player in the world. Perhaps you are. It shows how a human could theoretically perform a run, if s/he could overcome her/his capability to be flawed.

... and retry fifty million times waiting for the randomly chosen values to be nominal. around here, that's known as 'sessing' the run, and requires saving many times.

Quote from Arc:

You have a good idea in separating 'speed run' from 'time attack'. I suppose then we could say that you have the best speed run and I have the best time attack. Perhaps my time attack can help you on your next speed run attempt.

i prefer the term 'technical demonstration,' though i do have some reservations about applying the same term to your programmed monstrosity as i do to sesshoumaru's legitimately played demonstration run.

Red Scarlet

2004-02-24 12:56:09 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Samus actually won't get knocked off of the vertical column until she is inside of 2 blocks, not 1.

The vertical column is just like any single reforming block; you can get knocked off it depending on where you are when it reforms (like the old method to get out of the Ice Beam area).

On the video, I don't see you aim up for the second skree, so that is why I figured that the video recording didn't pick up the frame of aiming upward. :)

It doesn't look like bombs go off 100% of the fight time during Kraid, so the no damage looks very strange..

Personally I tried doing that, and of course died a quick and horrible death. I'm inclined to say beating Kraid with 1 Energy Tank, getting the second quickly without dying from lava/a projectile from Kraid probably isn't doable on a console..but I still have yet to try a couple more times.

The video was fairly entertaining, but like I said, those types of videos really make people not feel like recording a video after the edited release, as it won't compare to near-perfection. So no one will care.

And the shortcut I mean from Kraid's, is a quicker way to get into the red door on the main vertical area; unmorph as a ball to levitate over to the door, or do an unmorph jump to get up there instead of waiting for the Ripper to arrive and freeze.

Time Attack really doesn't sound any different from Speed Run to my ears, though.

Like I said, there will probably be barely any Metroid 1 videos released because of this one; not many people will bother watching them.

[b]Samus actually won't get knocked off of the vertical column until she is inside of 2 blocks, not 1.[/b]

The vertical column is just like any single reforming block; you can get knocked off it depending on where you are when it reforms (like the old method to get out of the Ice Beam area).

On the video, I don't see you aim up for the second skree, so that is why I figured that the video recording didn't pick up the frame of aiming upward. :)

It doesn't look like bombs go off 100% of the fight time during Kraid, so the no damage looks very strange..

Personally I tried doing that, and of course died a quick and horrible death.  I'm inclined to say beating Kraid with 1 Energy Tank, getting the second quickly without dying from lava/a projectile from Kraid probably isn't doable on a console..but I still have yet to try a couple more times.

The video was fairly entertaining, but like I said, those types of videos really make people not feel like recording a video after the edited release, as it won't compare to near-perfection.  So no one will care.

And the shortcut I mean from Kraid's, is a quicker way to get into the red door on the main vertical area; unmorph as a ball to levitate over to the door, or do an unmorph jump to get up there instead of waiting for the Ripper to arrive and freeze.

Time Attack really doesn't sound any different from Speed Run to my ears, though.

Like I said, there will probably be barely any Metroid 1 videos released because of this one; not many people will bother watching them.

Light of Day

2004-02-24 01:01:02 am

Quote from Arc:

It shows how a human could theoretically perform a run, if s/he could overcome her/his capability to be flawed.

And that is exactly why this run is unpoular here, because a human hasn't performed this, and they haven't overcome their flaws.

In showing this run here, you have chosen one of the worst possible audiences you could have showed it to. In this community speed running is very competitive. A good speed run does more than just put a new time on a score board, though. It is a way of earning respect, of proving ones skills. It is a proof that after months of hard training, to a certain degree the player has overcome their "flaws". Despite how many times a section of one of our runs has been replayed, everything in that section is an example of how that player has played, under the original conditions of the game, in one sitting; not how they theoretically could do it if they played perfectly, under perfect conditions. When a run emerges that attempts just that, throwing aside carefully placed out rules designed to keep the competition fair in the process, it... cheapens the whole experience.

Your run would have been badly recieved even if you had admitted from the first place that you hadn't played it yourself; but to just say "check out my run" with no warning whatsoever implied that you are were attempting to say that the run was played by our rules, even if you did not mean to imply that at all. And to attempt to pass off such a run as your own skill, even if the attempt was unintentional, could be seen as an insult to everyone who has ever put effort into producing a "legit" run of their own.

So really, does it seem all that unreasonable that the community here would be biased against your run? Whether you consider it cheating or not, it breaks not only our rules of speed running, but even the base principles this community was founded upon.

It's a shame, really, because taken for what it is I am sure it is a very entertaining video. But it will never be accepted by many here, just for what it is.

[quote="Arc"]It shows how a human could theoretically perform a run, if s/he could overcome her/his capability to be flawed.[/quote]
And that is exactly why this run is unpoular here, because a human [i]hasn't[/i] performed this, and they [i]haven't[/i] overcome their flaws.

In showing this run here, you have chosen one of the worst possible audiences you could have showed it to. In this community speed running is very competitive. A good speed run does more than just put a new time on a score board, though. It is a way of earning respect, of proving ones skills. It is a proof that after months of hard training, to a certain degree the player [i]has[/i] overcome their "flaws". Despite how many times a section of one of our runs has been replayed, everything in that section is an example of how that player has played, under the original conditions of the game, in one sitting; not how they theoretically could do it if they played perfectly, under perfect conditions. When a run emerges that attempts just that, throwing aside carefully placed out rules designed to keep the competition fair in the process, it... cheapens the whole experience.

Your run would have been badly recieved even if you had admitted from the first place that you hadn't played it yourself; but to just say "check out my run" with no warning whatsoever implied that you are were attempting to say that the run was played by our rules, even if you did not mean to imply that at all. And to attempt to pass off such a run as your own skill, even if the attempt was unintentional, could be seen as an insult to everyone who has ever put effort into producing a "legit" run of their own.

So really, does it seem all that unreasonable that the community here would be biased against your run? Whether you consider it cheating or not, it breaks not only our rules of speed running, but even the base principles this community was founded upon.

It's a shame, really, because taken for what it is I am sure it is a very entertaining video. But it will never be accepted by many here, just for what it is.

Red Scarlet

2004-02-24 01:11:09 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I suppose then we could say that you have the best speed run and I have the best time attack.

Nah my runs are pretty horrid, but like the run performed in your video, as well as the 'no varia, no bosses killed, 15 missiles only' run that is somewhat popular on the rom, are IMO not going to be done on a console by a person anytime soon, so there was no point to attempt getting stuff just right and retrying 20 minutes worth of stuff after each botch.

ShadowMagus

2004-02-28 06:44:50 pm

Quote from RS Bulleta:

And I have never been able to jump back up to either platform in Kraid's room after going down to the Energy Tank without having Hi-Jump boots; I was trapped and forced to die. That jump (as well as possibly a couple others) exceeds the natural jumping limit.

I got out of there on MZM without Hi-jump boots. Granted, it took a lot of luck, but it's do-able.

Yoshi348

2004-02-28 10:23:59 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from ShadowMagus:

Quote from RS Bulleta:

And I have never been able to jump back up to either platform in Kraid's room after going down to the Energy Tank without having Hi-Jump boots; I was trapped and forced to die. That jump (as well as possibly a couple others) exceeds the natural jumping limit.

I got out of there on MZM without Hi-jump boots. Granted, it took a lot of luck, but it's do-able.

MZM != Orignal. Especially the boss rooms... this one is describing the actual room Kraid is in, not the area Kraid (which in the OG was usually described by players as just "Kraid's Hideout".) In the OG Kraid, being small, has a one screen room, and it has the two sides of the rooms being acid pits. The energy tank is in a shootable wall in the pit.

Light of Day

2004-02-28 10:37:33 pm

Quote from Yoshi348:

MZM != Orignal. Especially the boss rooms... this one is describing the actual room Kraid is in, not the area Kraid (which in the OG was usually described by players as just "Kraid's Hideout".) In the OG Kraid, being small, has a one screen room, and it has the two sides of the rooms being acid pits. The energy tank is in a shootable wall in the pit.

I think he meant he was playing the originalt through the ZM bonus.

Yoshi348

2004-02-28 11:14:39 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from Light of Day:

Quote from Yoshi348:

MZM != Orignal. Especially the boss rooms... this one is describing the actual room Kraid is in, not the area Kraid (which in the OG was usually described by players as just "Kraid's Hideout".) In the OG Kraid, being small, has a one screen room, and it has the two sides of the rooms being acid pits. The energy tank is in a shootable wall in the pit.

I think he meant he was playing the originalt through the ZM bonus.

You know those times, when you get this great idea, that has very far reaching consequences, and you go and tell people about it, and they shoot you down over one stupid detail you forgot about?

Yeah, me too.