Metroid Prime 75% Speedrun Interest?

2015-08-27 01:37:58 am

I've also been interested in Metroid Prime for a little while, however, I'm interested in running a category that aims to collect a minimum of 75% in order to achieve the second ending (without the use of out of bounds). There's a couple of reasons why I hope to run this route:

-i wanted a middle length category between any% and 100%
-the reason I don't want do out of bounds is not because I don't like them or am unwilling to learn them (I find out-of-bounds travel really interesting and am familiar with it in Super Metroid), but rather, because I think that Metroid Prime is a game that has very interesting and complex movement, and I wanted this run to focus on showcasing that movement without seeming especially broken. Sort of like the "No Major Glitches" categories for Super Metroid and Link to the Past.
-I want to achieve the second ending because I'm quite fond of Samus's character model and I like to idealize/romanticize the ending (in a sense of visual and audio presentation) of speedruns -- as strange as that may sound.

Is there anyone who is interested in such a category or has a category like this been run in the past for Metroid Prime? I hope to begin routing the game but I'd like to know if there has already been work done in the past to limit any unnecessary effort. I imagine the route would be very similar to 100% except skipping over the items that cost too much time to obtain.

Anyway, thank you for reading. Take care.

Thread title:

I've also been interested in Metroid Prime for a little while, however, I'm interested in running a category that aims to collect a minimum of 75% in order to achieve the second ending (without the use of out of bounds). There's a couple of reasons why I hope to run this route:

-i wanted a middle length category between any% and 100%
-the reason I don't want do out of bounds is not because I don't like them or am unwilling to learn them (I find out-of-bounds travel really interesting and am familiar with it in Super Metroid), but rather, because I think that Metroid Prime is a game that has very interesting and complex movement, and I wanted this run to focus on showcasing that movement without seeming especially broken. Sort of like the "No Major Glitches" categories for Super Metroid and Link to the Past.
-I want to achieve the second ending because I'm quite fond of Samus's character model and I like to idealize/romanticize the ending (in a sense of visual and audio presentation) of speedruns -- as strange as that may sound.

Is there anyone who is interested in such a category or has a category like this been run in the past for Metroid Prime? I hope to begin routing the game but I'd like to know if there has already been work done in the past to limit any unnecessary effort. I imagine the route would be very similar to 100% except skipping over the items that cost too much time to obtain.

Anyway, thank you for reading. Take care.

BioSpark

2015-08-27 02:20:44 am

i don't have any comments on the category, but i want to point out some flawed logic here:

Quote from Schmeman:

-the reason I don't want do out of bounds is not because I don't like them or am unwilling to learn them (I find out-of-bounds travel really interesting and am familiar with it in Super Metroid), but rather, because I think that Metroid Prime is a game that has very interesting and complex movement, and I wanted this run to focus on showcasing that movement without seeming especially broken. Sort of like the "No Major Glitches" categories for Super Metroid and Link to the Past.

movement doesn't get more complex than out of bounds. it takes more skill and knowledge to navigate out of bounds than it does to do a dash jump, for example.

also, out of bounds doesn't actually break the game as much as other tricks do, so "no major glitches" is kinda inaccurate. space jump first and reverse bars in great tree hall are bigger breaks.

Skull64

2015-08-27 02:22:48 am

You can do whatever category you want man but I highly doubt anybody else will do 75% runs to compete with you.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2015-08-27 02:25:37 am

kirbymastah: 2015-08-27 02:25:01 am

2015-08-27 02:23:23 am

There's a lot of reasons why I see this post as rather silly, that you don't seem to understand

1. A "middle length category" is pretty dumb for a game as short as metroid prime, when any% and 100% only differ by ~15-20 minutes. This is more suited for games like OoT and DK64, where the 100% games are >4 hours, and any% are like less than an hour.
2. Sorry but saying "OoB in mp1 is like super metroid OoB" shows you don't know much about this game in a speedrunning context, because they are basically nothing alike. Like most viewers, you're really overestimating how broken OoB is in the prime games because it really isn't a "skip the game" trick, and is a lot more limited than you (and countless viewers) realize. And furthermore, doing OoB involves a lot more of that "complex movement" that you claim to love and is a lot more difficult than it looks. Heck, I actually recommend new runners to use routes that do NOT go out of bounds because the movement is so difficult.
3. Furthermore, making a separate "No-OoB" category is silly as OoB doesn't even save more than few minutes in general. If you don't want to do it, or if it's too hard, just use a different route. No need to make a separate category.
4. The 100% ending is the same as the 75% ending, except there's an extra cutscene after the credits. Wanting to see samus take off her helmet isn't a reason to make 75% a separate category from 100% since 100% already does that too.

Feel free to do this for fun if you want, but these reasons you've listed don't warrant creating an official category on a leaderboards. Again, from what you're saying, it also sounds like you don't know very much about this game in a speedrunning context so I recommend actually studying runs, understanding the mechanics, and even play the game and just break it for fun yourself (most prime speedrunners started doing this before actually speedrunning) before trying to suggest a new category.

There's a lot of reasons why I see this post as rather silly, that you don't seem to understand

1. A "middle length category" is pretty dumb for a game as short as metroid prime, when any% and 100% only differ by ~15-20 minutes. This is more suited for games like OoT and DK64, where the 100% games are >4 hours, and any% are like less than an hour.
2. Sorry but saying "OoB in mp1 is like super metroid OoB" shows you don't know much about this game in a speedrunning context, because they are basically nothing alike. Like most viewers, you're really overestimating how broken OoB is in the prime games because it really isn't a "skip the game" trick, and is a lot more limited than you (and countless viewers) realize. And furthermore, doing OoB involves a lot more of that "complex movement" that you claim to love and is a lot more difficult than it looks. Heck, I actually recommend new runners to use routes that do NOT go out of bounds because the movement is so difficult.
3. Furthermore, making a separate "No-OoB" category is silly as OoB doesn't even save more than few minutes in general. If you don't want to do it, or if it's too hard, just use a different route. No need to make a separate category.
4. The 100% ending is the same as the 75% ending, except there's an extra cutscene after the credits. Wanting to see samus take off her helmet isn't a reason to make 75% a separate category from 100% since 100% already does that too.

Feel free to do this for fun if you want, but these reasons you've listed don't warrant creating an official category on a leaderboards. Again, from what you're saying, it also sounds like you don't know very much about this game in a speedrunning context so I recommend actually studying runs, understanding the mechanics, and even play the game and just break it for fun yourself (most prime speedrunners started doing this before actually speedrunning) before trying to suggest a new category.

BioSpark

2015-08-27 02:28:59 am

i don't think he was intending it to be a serious category that's added to the leaderboards. it's just a personal interest and he wanted to see if there was any previous work done for it.

Quote from kirbymastah:

3. Furthermore, making a separate "No-OoB" category is silly as OoB doesn't even save more than few minutes in general. If you don't want to do it, or if it's too hard, just use a different route. No need to make a separate category.

this is irrelevant once your category becomes arbitrary though.

kirbymastah

2015-08-27 02:31:06 am

Yeah, as I said, you can do this if you want but you shouldn't be surprised that nobody's done any work on this because it isn't a serious category at all, and you've put some arbitrary restrictions/rules.

Schmeman

2015-08-27 03:20:47 am

A couple points I'd like to make. First, yes I am in no way saying that this should be an official category and realize this may only be of interest to me. However, I'm still interested in routing it based on my personal reasons.

Second, in regards to OoB being complex. I'd like to say that I understand that Out of Bounds movement is very complex, and I don't mean to say it isn't hard or interesting to do, but in the interest of the run I'd like to create -- which is one that appears, to the layman, to be largely "glitch free" (despite obviously containing other glitches) -- I'd like to avoid OoB travel. By having good movement, I meant to say that Samus herself has a large array of movement options, which i find interesting in a speedrun. Of course, OoB movement is interesting as well.

When I mentioned my familiarity with Super Metroid's OoB, I did not mean to imply that it was similar at all to the OoB present in the prime games, instead, I just wanted to show that I wasn't biased to the idea of OoB or that I was unable or unwilling to learn OoB. It's just that, for this particular run that I'd like to produce, I want to avoid using OoB.

You are right though, I do not know much about Metroid Prime speedruns. I've played the games and I have watched runs that were on GDQ's, but I'm largely unfamiliar with the game. I'm interested as well in completing (and competing in) other categories (I'm very interested in MP2 any%), but this particular one is a small interest of mine.

Sorry if my post came across strange originally, and thank you for your replies, I think I'll work on learning the game before I come back to routing this idea. Heck, I may even lose interest in a project like this, but I figured I'd ask and engage interest before starting -- in an effort to avoid wasting my time if such work had already been done. Anyway, thanks for your time.

A couple points I'd like to make. First, yes I am in no way saying that this should be an official category and realize this may only be of interest to me. However, I'm still interested in routing it based on my personal reasons.

Second, in regards to OoB being complex. I'd like to say that I understand that Out of Bounds movement is very complex, and I don't mean to say it isn't hard or interesting to do, but in the interest of the run I'd like to create -- which is one that appears, to the layman, to be largely "glitch free" (despite obviously containing other glitches) -- I'd like to avoid OoB travel. By having good movement, I meant to say that Samus herself has a large array of movement options, which i find interesting in a speedrun. Of course, OoB movement is interesting as well.

When I mentioned my familiarity with Super Metroid's OoB, I did not mean to imply that it was similar at all to the OoB present in the prime games, instead, I just wanted to show that I wasn't biased to the idea of OoB or that I was unable or unwilling to learn OoB. It's just that, for this particular run that I'd like to produce, I want to avoid using OoB.

You are right though, I do not know much about Metroid Prime speedruns. I've played the games and I have watched runs that were on GDQ's, but I'm largely unfamiliar with the game. I'm interested as well in completing (and competing in) other categories (I'm very interested in MP2 any%), but this particular one is a small interest of mine.

Sorry if my post came across strange originally, and thank you for your replies, I think I'll work on learning the game before I come back to routing this idea. Heck, I may even lose interest in a project like this, but I figured I'd ask and engage interest before starting -- in an effort to avoid wasting my time if such work had already been done. Anyway, thanks for your time.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2015-08-27 10:56:30 am

kirbymastah: 2015-08-27 10:56:21 am

kirbymastah: 2015-08-27 10:55:34 am

2015-08-27 10:55:23 am

The problem is, going OoB isn't exactly "large glitch" when you do things such as gate skip and early space jump that are far more gamebreaking than any out of bounds in this game. The main use for it in a speedrun context is getting ice beam before flaahgra, which doesn't even save that much time compared to other in-bound tricks you do. Again, I really dislike it being classified as "large glitch" when you use other game-breaking in-bound glitches/tricks to get out of bounds in the first place because it isn't a "skip a huge part of the game" trick.

That being said, you can do whatever you feel like and route this out; I'd be mildly interested in seeing what 25% of items you cut out. I recommend watching the current 100% route, along with one of the semi-old routes (there's no oob) that miles used to do (that I personally recommend newer runners try) here - http://pastebin.com/KJjSF9PU . Good luck and keep us up to date!

Skull64

2015-08-27 11:53:09 am

You'll actually need to get 76 items because Phazon Suit doesn't count as a %

T3

2015-08-27 04:03:24 pm

obviously excluding the no-oob rule, would anyone be down to casually race this at some point? i'm aware of how incredibly arbitrary it is and i'm not suggesting this should be actually inducted as an actual category but i think it would pretty interesting as an on-the-fly race since it would emphasize your ability to strategize as you go along (similar to bingo... rip). i'd be down to race this at some point tonight if anyone's interested.

BioSpark

2015-08-27 04:18:23 pm

Quote from T3:

i think it would pretty interesting as an on-the-fly race since it would emphasize your ability to strategize as you go along (similar to bingo... rip). i'd be down to race this at some point tonight if anyone's interested.

in that case, you might be better off doing random%. there's potentially a different strategy/route for each percent.

T3

2015-08-27 05:57:08 pm

the category/percent is not really important in this context though. you could come up with a random objective for anything in the game and it could still be worth racing if it would be fun and force you to think about things differently (like a bingo). since people would be making different decisions/route choices it could actually make for an interesting race and wouldn't necessarily just be determined by skill.

Aruki

2015-08-27 06:14:10 pm

Randomizer race where runners are allowed to look at the log for one minute or so before the race starts

Schmeman

2015-08-28 12:09:07 am

Quote from kirbymastah:

The problem is, going OoB isn't exactly "large glitch" when you do things such as gate skip and early space jump that are far more gamebreaking than any out of bounds in this game. The main use for it in a speedrun context is getting ice beam before flaahgra, which doesn't even save that much time compared to other in-bound tricks you do. Again, I really dislike it being classified as "large glitch" when you use other game-breaking in-bound glitches/tricks to get out of bounds in the first place because it isn't a "skip a huge part of the game" trick.

That being said, you can do whatever you feel like and route this out; I'd be mildly interested in seeing what 25% of items you cut out. I recommend watching the current 100% route, along with one of the semi-old routes (there's no oob) that miles used to do (that I personally recommend newer runners try) here - http://pastebin.com/KJjSF9PU . Good luck and keep us up to date!

Yes, although I think what determines something to be a "major/large glitch" really doesn't have much to do with its usefulness within a run, but rather if the glitch makes the game seem especially "glitchy" to someone who has only played the game casually. I can only really relate this to Super Metroid, since it's the game I'm most familiar with, but if we we're going to call a glitch a "major glitch" based on its usefulness towards the run, then we would most likely include the machball and zebetite skip; however, since those two glitches don't appear to be especially "glitchy" (like Out of Bounds travel or abuse of Space-Time Beam), they are not considered as a major glitch. This is because, while they are incredibly useful glitches, they serve to create a certain aesthetic quality to the speedrun -- it allows the run to seem as though the player is simply good at the game (rather than exploiting any glitches, even though they are exploiting them). I think the same can hold true to scan-dashing (and other tricks that I'm not yet familiar with in prime). I don't mean to devalue any particular glitch, but I think it's fair to say that some glitches feel more glitchy than others, and that this feeling can have an effect on the way a speedrun is perceived while being watched. This is the reason why I, in particular, decided to omit Out of Bounds -- to create this specific aesthetic quality.

Thank you very much for the pastebin, and I hope to keep everyone up to date with any progress I make. I just ordered the correct version of Metroid Prime 1 -- so I should be able to get started within a few weeks. Thanks again for all the help.

[quote="kirbymastah"]The problem is, going OoB isn't exactly "large glitch" when you do things such as gate skip and early space jump that are far more gamebreaking than any out of bounds in this game. The main use for it in a speedrun context is getting ice beam before flaahgra, which doesn't even save that much time compared to other in-bound tricks you do. Again, I really dislike it being classified as "large glitch" when you use other game-breaking in-bound glitches/tricks to get out of bounds in the first place because it isn't a "skip a huge part of the game" trick.

That being said, you can do whatever you feel like and route this out; I'd be mildly interested in seeing what 25% of items you cut out. I recommend watching the current 100% route, along with one of the semi-old routes (there's no oob) that miles used to do (that I personally recommend newer runners try) here - http://pastebin.com/KJjSF9PU . Good luck and keep us up to date![/quote]

Yes, although I think what determines something to be a "major/large glitch" really doesn't have much to do with its usefulness within a run, but rather if the glitch makes the game seem especially "glitchy" to someone who has only played the game casually. I can only really relate this to Super Metroid, since it's the game I'm most familiar with, but if we we're going to call a glitch a "major glitch" based on its usefulness towards the run, then we would most likely include the machball and zebetite skip; however, since those two glitches don't appear to be especially "glitchy" (like Out of Bounds travel or abuse of Space-Time Beam), they are not considered as a major glitch. This is because, while they are incredibly useful glitches, they serve to create a certain aesthetic quality to the speedrun -- it allows the run to seem as though the player is simply good at the game (rather than exploiting any glitches, even though they are exploiting them). I think the same can hold true to scan-dashing (and other tricks that I'm not yet familiar with in prime). I don't mean to devalue any particular glitch, but I think it's fair to say that some glitches feel more glitchy than others, and that this feeling can have an effect on the way a speedrun is perceived while being watched. This is the reason why I, in particular, decided to omit Out of Bounds -- to create this specific aesthetic quality.

Thank you very much for the pastebin, and I hope to keep everyone up to date with any progress I make. I just ordered the correct version of Metroid Prime 1 -- so I should be able to get started within a few weeks. Thanks again for all the help.

Skull64

2015-08-28 11:51:57 am

Quote from Schmeman:

Yes, although I think what determines something to be a "major/large glitch" really doesn't have much to do with its usefulness within a run, but rather if the glitch makes the game seem especially "glitchy" to someone who has only played the game casually. I can only really relate this to Super Metroid, since it's the game I'm most familiar with, but if we we're going to call a glitch a "major glitch" based on its usefulness towards the run, then we would most likely include the machball and zebetite skip; however, since those two glitches don't appear to be especially "glitchy" (like Out of Bounds travel or abuse of Space-Time Beam), they are not considered as a major glitch. This is because, while they are incredibly useful glitches, they serve to create a certain aesthetic quality to the speedrun -- it allows the run to seem as though the player is simply good at the game (rather than exploiting any glitches, even though they are exploiting them). I think the same can hold true to scan-dashing (and other tricks that I'm not yet familiar with in prime). I don't mean to devalue any particular glitch, but I think it's fair to say that some glitches feel more glitchy than others, and that this feeling can have an effect on the way a speedrun is perceived while being watched.

This is something I've been trying to articulate for a long time, but I've never able to express it nearly as well as you did. While I'm certainly not in favor of creating "OoB-less" categories, I never found the argument that OoB is less of a glitch than things like gate skip just because it doesn't save as much time in popular speedrun categories to be very convincing. Everyone knows gate skip is a bigger sequence break than any OoB, but it looks extremely natural, whereas wallcrawling looks decidedly unnatural.

[quote="Schmeman"]Yes, although I think what determines something to be a "major/large glitch" really doesn't have much to do with its usefulness within a run, but rather if the glitch makes the game seem especially "glitchy" to someone who has only played the game casually. I can only really relate this to Super Metroid, since it's the game I'm most familiar with, but if we we're going to call a glitch a "major glitch" based on its usefulness towards the run, then we would most likely include the machball and zebetite skip; however, since those two glitches don't appear to be especially "glitchy" (like Out of Bounds travel or abuse of Space-Time Beam), they are not considered as a major glitch. This is because, while they are incredibly useful glitches, they serve to create a certain aesthetic quality to the speedrun -- it allows the run to seem as though the player is simply good at the game (rather than exploiting any glitches, even though they are exploiting them). I think the same can hold true to scan-dashing (and other tricks that I'm not yet familiar with in prime). I don't mean to devalue any particular glitch, but I think it's fair to say that some glitches feel more glitchy than others, and that this feeling can have an effect on the way a speedrun is perceived while being watched.[/quote]

This is something I've been trying to articulate for a long time, but I've never able to express it nearly as well as you did. While I'm certainly not in favor of creating "OoB-less" categories, I never found the argument that OoB is less of a glitch than things like gate skip just because it doesn't save as much time in popular speedrun categories to be very convincing. Everyone knows gate skip is a bigger sequence break than any OoB, but it looks extremely natural, whereas wallcrawling looks decidedly unnatural.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2015-08-28 01:19:41 pm

2015-08-28 01:17:54 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

Quote from T3:

i think it would pretty interesting as an on-the-fly race since it would emphasize your ability to strategize as you go along (similar to bingo... rip). i'd be down to race this at some point tonight if anyone's interested.

in that case, you might be better off doing random%. there's potentially a different strategy/route for each percent.

We used to do this in fusion and it was a lot of fun back in the day. should work well for primes as well.

Baby Sheegoth

2015-08-28 07:26:35 pm

"This looks weird so we should make a category without it"

Skull64

2015-08-28 07:27:58 pm

Quote from Baby Sheegoth:

"This looks weird so we should make a category without it"

Quote from Skull64:

I'm certainly not in favor of creating "OoB-less" categories

arkarian

2015-08-28 07:31:10 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Baby Sheegoth:

"This looks weird so we should make a category without it"

it doesn't look like anyone is saying we should make this an "official" category ... the guy just wanted to see if there's any interest in this sort of run. if you don't have any interest then don't post ...