is a SS with deaths really a SS?

2008-01-30 12:23:51 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

when reading the topic discussing checkpoints, i started wondering something.

is a SS run where the runner dies and continues from the checkpoint really a SS run? death in any other metroid game would automatically kill your run but mp3 is full of checkpoints that prevent this.
the abscence of checkpoints could make something like hyper 22% SS 100x harder since i don't think anyone has done that without dying once. imo, the thing is that a checkpoint is like an artificial save and you can retry as if you saved, breaking the SS condition of the run. even the SS mp2 runs doesn't use the checkpoint before DS3/4.

what does everyone else think? is it fine as long as the runner never stops recording or would this cause an extra category for mp3 runs?

Thread title:

MASTER-88

2008-01-30 06:41:01 am

Speedrunner

It is of course very allowed if you death your segmented run and use checkpoints when you die. This game don,t includes too much checkpoints.

Yeah you talking about SS runs.
But yeah SS runs without death is of course much cooler.
But hyper 22% SS never ever can happen without deaths. There is too much places lose your energy very fast. Just like Phaaze and last boss. +Game is incredible long.

I think it is just easier make Echoes 22% hard SS or first prime 22% hard mode SS run. Hyper 22% is hardest low-% category in any metroid game IMO.

But yeah there is no much reason died if you make SS runs. I think this is not totally wrong if you die, but hopefully you can avoid every deaths here. But this is very different questions if you make segmented run. There is absolutely no reason make no deaths run. Check points is your best friend here.

AJAX

2008-01-30 08:28:12 am

“Well done is better than well said”

You summed it well enough for me. I agree with you Piccolocube.

arkarian

2008-01-30 09:22:29 am

red chamber dream

Deaths are allowed, but I'd very much rather see SS runs without deaths. On SDA they'd be labeled as such, as well.

Aruki

2008-02-01 12:04:52 am

It really depends on the way the death is used - unintentional deaths are fine as long as there's not too many, but intentional deaths might not be.

MASTER-88, a SS 22% hyper without deaths is certainly possible. The only hard parts are Pirate Commander and Phaaze, both of which have very good strategies that can minimalize the chances of dying.

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2008-02-01 06:27:03 am

2008-02-01 06:21:32 am

Speedrunner

Yeah i know you thinking 22% SS hyper is possible without deaths. But i don,t agree that yet. Hopefully this happen somedays in future, just like sub hour run in first prime. laugh new

If you go recorded your run in SDA, there is NO different category between unintentional-intentional deaths.
And there is no different category how much you have your deaths. 1 deaths or 100 deaths this is same thing IMO.

But yeah of course 1 deaths run is cooler one than 100 deaths run. Wink

E:
This is weird you said pirate commander is one hardest spot here. I just lose only 3 ET against him my first hyper mode playthrought. Every else boss took more than 3 ET to beat. I think defence system destroyed in pirate home world is just harder or skyway acces W/O hazard. This was only very difficult spot on low-% normal mode run took me almost 10 deaths.

arkarian

2008-02-01 09:27:25 am

red chamber dream

Quote from Paraxade:

unintentional deaths are fine as long as there's not too many, but intentional deaths might not be.

That sounds completely backward to me. On SDA there is a category called "death abuse", so certainly you're allowed to die in runs intentionally as part of a strategy, it just goes into a different category.
It's the unintentional deaths I don't like seeing in runs: it makes the player look sloppy as hell. Even if the game is as hard as Corruption on Hyper, certainly it's possible to be beaten with no deaths, and the player should do so. If you die with any sort of regularity on such a run, you need to practice until you get better before you even think about recording a speed run. People have beaten ridiculously hard games like Battletoads without dying, so there's no reason to submit a run of a much easier game if it contains unintentional deaths.

Azure

2008-02-01 10:08:07 am

Pi-Face

Quote from Arkarian:

It's the unintentional deaths I don't like seeing in runs: it makes the player look sloppy as hell. [...] People have beaten ridiculously hard games like Battletoads without dying, so there's no reason to submit a run of a much easier game if it contains unintentional deaths.

Yes, but Battletoads doesn't take three hours for a single run through the game. I can understand one death in a Corruption speedrun, especially low%, maybe two at the absolute max, if there's a really good reason it happened. Any more than that, however, and it does look sloppy.
(Although, even one death makes it look bad... but still. Though a 22% Hyper SS with no deaths is theoretically possible, I don't see it happening any time soon.)

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2008-02-01 10:16:22 am

2008-02-01 10:13:02 am

Speedrunner

Quote from Azure:

Quote from Arkarian:

It's the unintentional deaths I don't like seeing in runs: it makes the player look sloppy as hell. [...] People have beaten ridiculously hard games like Battletoads without dying, so there's no reason to submit a run of a much easier game if it contains unintentional deaths.

Yes, but Battletoads doesn't take three hours for a single run through the game. I can understand one death in a Corruption speedrun, especially low%, maybe two at the absolute max, if there's a really good reason it happened.

Death=Death:
1 or 100. There is no difference. If you death any else metroid game once your SS run is over instantly

And i agree this what Azure say. Battletoads is just easier because it is very short game. Hyper 22% SS took over 4 hours real time and many mistakes kill you instant hit.

arkarian

2008-02-01 10:18:42 am

red chamber dream

Azure: Right, just like getting a 22% was considered impossible by the devs at Retro.

Just practice until you can't die, or don't record a speed run. If you can do all the ridiculously hard speed tricks and SBs and such, there's no reason to be dying in your runs.

MASTER-88: No, in Corruption there are checkpoints, which let you continue. That's stupid, though... it's a Single Segment, so there should be no deaths.

AJAX

2008-02-01 10:27:15 am

“Well done is better than well said”

For Example the Watch Station Access Dash or roll jump in Prime 2. This move would put a run under the death abuse category for a SS run I assume.

arkarian

2008-02-01 10:36:38 am

red chamber dream

You don't actually die during those tricks, though, right? You just take terminal fall damage, which doesn't count as a death. That's fine.

Aruki

2008-02-01 03:17:10 pm

The tricks that are pulled off in a run of Corruption are much, much easier than the places I tend to die. Let me know when you personally can make it through Phaaze on Hypermode with one tank very consistently. The fact that it's right at the end of a 4-hour run that's already hard enough certainly doesn't make it any easier. 10 deaths is certainly not justified though, I have no idea what I was thinking when I submitted that.

By the way, there aren't any "ridiculously hard" speed tricks or sequence breaks that would be used in a run.

arkarian

2008-02-01 05:23:25 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Paraxade:

Let me know when you personally can make it through Phaaze on Hypermode with one tank very consistently.

Why would I? I have no interest in doing a Corruption run myself. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching them, though, and I'm just giving my two cents on the matter.

Quote from Paraxade:

By the way, there aren't any "ridiculously hard" speed tricks or sequence breaks that would be used in a run.

Should give you more time to practice not getting killed, then.

072

2008-02-01 05:41:44 pm

coral to complement blue

If you can't do an SS without dieing, you should probably just do a segmented run.

craztad

2008-02-01 06:11:19 pm

kyupi+yakisoba=win

For some reason i don't mind a couple deaths in a ss run of this difficulty. Yes there should be a time penalty like 1 min per death in my opinion. I think a run with a couple deaths needs to be done and put up so everyone can study it mostly cause one person can only figure so much out. The times will slowly get better and push much closer to no deaths until a run finally does make the no death cut. I am very anxious to see where the first bar will be set.

Aruki

2008-02-01 07:40:16 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

Should give you more time to practice not getting killed, then.

I've spent a lot of time practicing it and I still can't get it 100% consistently. Much less at the end of a 4-hour run.

When I get back to doing SS attempts, though, I don't plan to allow more than 2 deaths.

arkarian

2008-02-01 08:08:40 pm

red chamber dream

See, the main reason I'm arguing this is because people used to think it'd be really fucking hard to beat Prime I on Hard with just one E-Tank, but of course, that's not the case. Now it's considered an easy feat, and the same will eventually be true for Corruption.

Aruki

2008-02-01 08:30:12 pm

A 22% hyper alone isn't that hard... add in the single segment bit and it is. I don't think anyone considers SS 22% hard mode on Prime an easy feat.

arkarian

2008-02-01 08:31:42 pm

red chamber dream

Right, but it's doable, and energy isn't really one of the main worries of thoroughly experienced runners.

craztad

2008-02-01 08:34:36 pm

kyupi+yakisoba=win

Quote from Arkarian:

See, the main reason I'm arguing this is because people used to think it'd be really fucking hard to beat Prime I on Hard with just one E-Tank, but of course, that's not the case. Now it's considered an easy feat, and the same will eventually be true for Corruption.

Ark, Yes a hard mode run on prime with one e-tank is very feasible but the last time i checked there was no run for prime that is 22% hard ss. I can't pull it off. I have tried though and have never made it past OP.

Aruki

Edit history:

Aruki: 2008-02-01 08:43:28 pm

2008-02-01 08:41:17 pm

That's because in most SS runs the runner stocks up on health. Not the case with low%.

Tahngarthor

Edit history:

Tahngarthor: 2008-02-04 02:39:27 am

2008-02-04 02:37:23 am

Bangaa Bishop

man speak for yourselves, I still cant' beat any of the primes in a Single Sitting (as I like to call it :) ). I'm terrible at speedrunning. There's only a few speed tricks and breaks ive managed to pull off. :D

at any rate if you take SS to mean "done in a single sitting" I dont think deaths take away from that in a technical sense. As long as things like dying to improve your time on phaaze are flagged as containing death abuse, I don't have an issue.

arkarian

2008-02-04 08:56:44 am

red chamber dream

Quote from Tahngarthor:

at any rate if you take SS to mean "done in a single sitting"

That is what 'SS' means. Well, it stands for 'Single–Segment', but it's the same thing really.