Ever thought about making a STORYLINE Speedrun?

2005-02-11 09:24:20 am

The idea is this:
Play the game WITHOUT sequence breaking with 100 or any percent
as fast as you can.

Ever thought about making a speed-run like this?

Or did you forgot how the original storyline was?

Wink

Thread title:

nate

2005-02-11 09:35:39 am

yeah, i'd say that's been pretty much beaten into the ground over the course of the last couple years. see here for a prime run done in this manner. doing it on metroid games with no set order (such as zero mission and, to a lesser extent, super metroid) almost seems like an exercise in futility - at least with the primes, there is a clearer order (though the artifacts in prime 1 do tend to cause a problem).

Purple Lizard

2005-02-11 09:42:39 am

For the case of Super Metroid, because wall-jumping is as powerful as it is, who's to say that what you're doing was not intended, or at least foreseen (sans obvious stuff like skipping spore spawn, of course).

Yoshi348

2005-02-11 10:42:44 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Super Metroid has a story that's affected by route?

Ekarderif

2005-02-11 01:07:01 pm

Super Metroid has a story?

Yoshi348

2005-02-11 01:29:01 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Implicit, yes.

Random Zelda Person

2005-02-11 05:32:20 pm

[intro]
Oh no! Ridley!
[several hours later (normally, I mean)]
Hey! That one Metroid that liked me got killinated! Oh well. Now I have a cool weapon!
[Zebes blows up]

nate

2005-02-11 05:54:40 pm

Quote from Purple Lizard:

For the case of Super Metroid, because wall-jumping is as powerful as it is, who's to say that what you're doing was not intended, or at least foreseen (sans obvious stuff like skipping spore spawn, of course).

i think that the word "foreseen" probably fits best. some year, i'm going to take video of the chozo statue in lower norfair (the one that lowers the lava) rejecting you if you don't have space jump. now, why would that statue do such a thing? because the developers got into lower norfair without space jump, of course ...

edit: just dug the original discovery out of my log. the word "foreseen" works pretty well just because it took us nine years to duplicate what they had been able to do before the release of the game (the following excerpts are from #metroid on 4 august 2003).

Quote:

01:45:02 AM: deskjockey_: man
01:45:11 AM: deskjockey_: i must be fucking something up somewhere
01:45:28 AM: deskjockey_: i just went to lower norfair without grav
01:45:45 AM: deskjockey_: just wall jumped in through the front way like nothing
01:45:59 AM: deskjockey_: but that can't be right, can it?
01:46:32 AM: deskjockey_: i could have sworn the lava had the same effect as the water on your jumping
01:47:11 AM: deskjockey_: i think it's just under lava
01:47:15 AM: deskjockey_: and either i'm on crack
01:47:23 AM: deskjockey_: or everyone in the world has overlooked it
01:47:44 AM: deskjockey_ gets ready for rehab
01:48:02 AM: deskjockey_: i have to be on something
01:48:29 AM: deskjockey_: i tried it on a non-work copy of the rom, too
01:48:50 AM: deskjockey_: one that i don't do anything technical with
01:48:59 AM: deskjockey_: and it worked there
01:49:30 AM: deskjockey_: i must be crazy...
01:50:16 AM: deskjockey_: if i'm not crazy, this is "beat the game without grav"
01:50:24 AM: deskjockey_: beat the game without varia too, maybe
01:52:30 AM: deskjockey_: i'm going to try this on my snes
01:57:05 AM: deskjockey_: wow, real spc700 sounds so much better than emulated spc700

[...]

02:32:36 AM: deskjockey_: i could never do speed runs
02:32:52 AM: deskjockey_: i suck at speed
02:34:34 AM: deskjockey_: i need a good deal of energy tanks to confirm this, and i'm having to run all over creation to get em
02:37:07 AM: deskjockey_: and i can't go to sleep until i confirm this, either
02:37:18 AM: deskjockey_: :/
02:42:55 AM: deskjockey_: hah, i suck at crocomire without plasma

[...]

03:10:52 AM: deskjockey_: ok
03:11:01 AM: deskjockey_: I ROCK
03:11:26 AM: deskjockey_: this changes so many things that i don't know where to start rethinking
03:11:48 AM: deskjockey_: you can walljump into lowernorfair in sm
03:11:52 AM: deskjockey_: without grav
03:12:13 AM: deskjockey_: just wall jump off the faces that shoot the fireballs
03:12:36 AM: deskjockey_: you get uberheight, actually
03:13:03 AM: deskjockey_: i didn't manage to get in yet on the cart
03:13:14 AM: deskjockey_: but that's because i can't freeze the faces to stop their shots
03:13:18 AM: deskjockey_: without plasma
03:13:35 AM: deskjockey_: which i can get without grav, thanks to what me and kej did a week or two ago
03:13:51 AM: deskjockey_: i have varia, but i can see doing it without
03:15:39 AM: deskjockey_: i don't think grav will leave low% any time soon
03:15:59 AM: deskjockey_: our free sj+bluesuit sj gravless draygon escape needs crystal flash
03:16:22 AM: deskjockey_: but this could change some things for any% speed
03:17:43 AM: deskjockey_: hmm, actually, our current sub-40 min plan is just as good as this
03:17:49 AM: deskjockey_: it doesn't really change much
03:18:42 AM: deskjockey_: oh, and this could raise nbmb percentage
03:19:00 AM: deskjockey_: you'd have to crystal flash before hitting the lava and right after though
03:19:16 AM: deskjockey_: and keep cf'ing and refilling as you raid ln
03:20:47 AM: deskjockey_: that's nbmb
03:21:03 AM: deskjockey_: no boss/miniboss
03:21:09 AM: deskjockey_: other than the torizo

[...]

03:23:09 AM: deskjockey_: i'm in!
03:23:48 AM: deskjockey_: fuck zee grabity zuit
03:24:11 AM: deskjockey_: oh my god
03:24:16 AM: deskjockey_: this is why!
03:24:45 AM: deskjockey_: this is why the chozo statue that lowers the lava in ln checks for spacejump
03:25:13 AM: deskjockey_: before we thought the developers knew that you could bomb jump in there
03:25:24 AM: deskjockey_: they didn't
03:25:32 AM: deskjockey_: they knew you could WALL JUMP in there
03:30:21 AM: deskjockey_: in a 100% run, you may well be able to clean out all of norfair(upper and lower) in a single trip now
03:30:27 AM: deskjockey_: oh wait
03:30:30 AM: deskjockey_: that fucking chozo
03:30:35 AM: deskjockey_: checking for space jump
03:30:42 AM: deskjockey_: gotta find a way to slip past
03:31:06 AM: deskjockey_ is happy now

[quote="Purple Lizard"]For the case of Super Metroid, because wall-jumping is as powerful as it is, who's to say that what you're doing was not intended, or at least foreseen (sans obvious stuff like skipping spore spawn, of course).[/quote]
i think that the word "foreseen" probably fits best. some year, i'm going to take video of the chozo statue in lower norfair (the one that lowers the lava) rejecting you if you don't have space jump. now, why would that statue do such a thing? because the developers got into lower norfair without space jump, of course ...

edit: just dug the original discovery out of my log. the word "foreseen" works pretty well just because it took us nine years to duplicate what they had been able to do before the release of the game (the following excerpts are from #metroid on 4 august 2003).

[quote]01:45:02 AM: deskjockey_: man
01:45:11 AM: deskjockey_: i must be fucking something up somewhere
01:45:28 AM: deskjockey_: i just went to lower norfair without grav
01:45:45 AM: deskjockey_: just wall jumped in through the front way like nothing
01:45:59 AM: deskjockey_: but that can't be right, can it?
01:46:32 AM: deskjockey_: i could have sworn the lava had the same effect as the water on your jumping
01:47:11 AM: deskjockey_: i think it's just under lava
01:47:15 AM: deskjockey_: and either i'm on crack
01:47:23 AM: deskjockey_: or everyone in the world has overlooked it
01:47:44 AM: deskjockey_ gets ready for rehab
01:48:02 AM: deskjockey_: i have to be on something
01:48:29 AM: deskjockey_: i tried it on a non-work copy of the rom, too
01:48:50 AM: deskjockey_: one that i don't do anything technical with
01:48:59 AM: deskjockey_: and it worked there
01:49:30 AM: deskjockey_: i must be crazy...
01:50:16 AM: deskjockey_: if i'm not crazy, this is "beat the game without grav"
01:50:24 AM: deskjockey_: beat the game without varia too, maybe
01:52:30 AM: deskjockey_: i'm going to try this on my snes
01:57:05 AM: deskjockey_: wow, real spc700 sounds so much better than emulated spc700

[...]

02:32:36 AM: deskjockey_: i could never do speed runs
02:32:52 AM: deskjockey_: i suck at speed
02:34:34 AM: deskjockey_: i need a good deal of energy tanks to confirm this, and i'm having to run all over creation to get em
02:37:07 AM: deskjockey_: and i can't go to sleep until i confirm this, either
02:37:18 AM: deskjockey_: :/
02:42:55 AM: deskjockey_: hah, i suck at crocomire without plasma

[...]

03:10:52 AM: deskjockey_: ok
03:11:01 AM: deskjockey_: I ROCK
03:11:26 AM: deskjockey_: this changes so many things that i don't know where to start rethinking
03:11:48 AM: deskjockey_: you can walljump into lowernorfair in sm
03:11:52 AM: deskjockey_: without grav
03:12:13 AM: deskjockey_: just wall jump off the faces that shoot the fireballs
03:12:36 AM: deskjockey_: you get uberheight, actually
03:13:03 AM: deskjockey_: i didn't manage to get in yet on the cart
03:13:14 AM: deskjockey_: but that's because i can't freeze the faces to stop their shots
03:13:18 AM: deskjockey_: without plasma
03:13:35 AM: deskjockey_: which i can get without grav, thanks to what me and kej did a week or two ago
03:13:51 AM: deskjockey_: i have varia, but i can see doing it without
03:15:39 AM: deskjockey_: i don't think grav will leave low% any time soon
03:15:59 AM: deskjockey_: our free sj+bluesuit sj gravless draygon escape needs crystal flash
03:16:22 AM: deskjockey_: but this could change some things for any% speed
03:17:43 AM: deskjockey_: hmm, actually, our current sub-40 min plan is just as good as this
03:17:49 AM: deskjockey_: it doesn't really change much
03:18:42 AM: deskjockey_: oh, and this could raise nbmb percentage
03:19:00 AM: deskjockey_: you'd have to crystal flash before hitting the lava and right after though
03:19:16 AM: deskjockey_: and keep cf'ing and refilling as you raid ln
03:20:47 AM: deskjockey_: that's nbmb
03:21:03 AM: deskjockey_: no boss/miniboss
03:21:09 AM: deskjockey_: other than the torizo

[...]

03:23:09 AM: deskjockey_: i'm in!
03:23:48 AM: deskjockey_: fuck zee grabity zuit
[b]03:24:11 AM: deskjockey_: oh my god
03:24:16 AM: deskjockey_: this is why!
03:24:45 AM: deskjockey_: this is why the chozo statue that lowers the lava in ln checks for spacejump
03:25:13 AM: deskjockey_: before we thought the developers knew that you could bomb jump in there
03:25:24 AM: deskjockey_: they didn't
03:25:32 AM: deskjockey_: they knew you could WALL JUMP in there
03:30:21 AM: deskjockey_: in a 100% run, you may well be able to clean out all of norfair(upper and lower) in a single trip now
03:30:27 AM: deskjockey_: oh wait
03:30:30 AM: deskjockey_: that fucking chozo
03:30:35 AM: deskjockey_: checking for space jump
03:30:42 AM: deskjockey_: gotta find a way to slip past
03:31:06 AM: deskjockey_ is happy now[/b][/quote]

Tim

2005-02-17 10:49:29 am

I remember finding out about that, haha. i got into lower norfair with that buggy gravity jump, and there was a damn block at the bottom plugging the drain.

Zeke

2005-02-17 11:33:49 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

I don't completely buy this reasoning. Suppose the developers did know that wall jumps off frozen stretchies are "magical" and get you height you shouldn't have under lava -- then why didn't they just fix that?

nate

2005-02-17 12:44:09 pm

because it was probably a lot more difficult (i.e. would have required a lot more testing after the change).

Dragonfangs

2005-02-17 01:21:02 pm

Isn't it more plausible that they just wanted to check if you've beat Draygon.
Although, that's not really "Super Metroid-ey".

Zeke

2005-02-17 01:37:13 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Well, the thing is, that acid room doesn't stop you from getting to Ridley -- it just stops you from getting the Screw Attack. (As farsighted as they were, I think it's safe to say the designers didn't predict the Green Gate Glitch.) So I think the reason the Chozo checks for Space Jump has nothing to do with Draygon or whether you got into Lower Norfair "legitimately." I think they just didn't want to do separate sprites for Screw Attack without Space Jump. Can anyone confirm this? I don't know what SA looks like without SJ.

By the way, I read a post here once saying that you can do the four bosses in any order. I can see how that works for some of them, but how can you kill Draygon before Phantoon? Surely you can't get all the way to his room without the Gravity Suit.

Kejardon

2005-02-17 01:57:26 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

You can, although it requires the ice beam and high jump boots. If you have the grapple beam, it's not that difficult. The hard part is getting back out of his room.

KennyMan666

2005-02-17 05:20:57 pm

Viking

Precursor

Quote from Zeke:

I think they just didn't want to do separate sprites for Screw Attack without Space Jump. Can anyone confirm this? I don't know what SA looks like without SJ.

You know, you can turn items off in SM. Rolling Eyes

It looks the same, no matter if you have Space Jump or not.

Zeke

2005-02-17 05:48:14 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from KennyMan666:

You know, you can turn items off in SM. Rolling Eyes

I knew that. I was just seeing if YOU knew that.

Quote:

It looks the same, no matter if you have Space Jump or not.

Oho! That may well be the explanation, then. I just checked it myself, and yep, Samus is visibly Space Jumping in the middle of any Screw Attack.

Roxinos

2005-02-17 06:15:10 pm

Done it...the only real thing that I did that you aren't supposed to do is get power bomb early...*nods* wall jumping is your friend...and it's not sequence breaking cause I still fought every boss so it didn't really cut much time off other then not having to go back to the missle near kraids room...1:13...