Area Idea: Negative Norfair

Opium

Edit history:

Opium: 2011-12-20 05:36:00 pm

Opium: 2011-12-20 05:35:00 pm

Opium: 2011-12-20 05:19:56 pm

Opium: 2011-12-20 05:18:28 pm

2011-12-20 05:16:56 pm

Quote from TheOthin:

The surgery was a reference to the organic components of the Power Suit, not to performing surgery on Samus herself.

If Samus ever gets defeated in Fusion, her suit gets blown off, revealing her to appear basically as she does in the endings. I think that confirms that her body under the suit remains intact.

Can you explain 'organic components of the power suit'?

Doesn't this basically mean that there were parts of the suit that were fused with her anatomy? Then they would have to CUT her to remove them, no?

Are you saying that they performed surgery on her suit, and not her?

I just don't think they would use the words 'surgically removed' if she weren't cut, and the surgery resulted in this -> 'dramatically altering my physical appearance' so how could she ever be ZSS again?

That image of samus with her suit being blown off does not really reveal anything about her appearance except that she has all 4 limbs and a head.

Opium

Edit history:

Opium: 2011-12-20 05:26:06 pm

2011-12-20 05:25:29 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

pretty sure the x she gets at the end restores her to normal somehow

This would explain why she looks the same after the game as she did before the x infection, but you would think they would mention that, or even hint at it, during all that end-game dialogue. I mean, they went to all this effort to explain her physical state and condition in the beginning, if it were all reversed at the end it just seems inconceivable that they wouldn't say one single word about it.

Prime Hunter

2011-12-20 05:28:13 pm

It's hard to know at times because the suit's functions seem to change as the series goes on. These days it seems like she can manifest it at will whenever she's wearing the Zero Suit (energy based), but there's other times where it seems like she physically puts it on and off like any other set of armor (physical object). At this point it would seem like we're supposed to think of it in terms of the energy based form, which complicates matters depending on the game in question.

sabata2

2011-12-20 07:26:04 pm

ANKOKU

It's a bit of both.

Cause we know she can manually take off her helmet, and her helmet (in the prime games) can disappear as well (as seen by the end of prime 3 IIRC).

So we can assume it's physical manifestation is actually energy, but it is used as a suit of air-tight armor.

TheOthin

2011-12-21 07:02:13 pm

Quote from Opium:

Quote from TheOthin:

The surgery was a reference to the organic components of the Power Suit, not to performing surgery on Samus herself.

If Samus ever gets defeated in Fusion, her suit gets blown off, revealing her to appear basically as she does in the endings. I think that confirms that her body under the suit remains intact.

Can you explain 'organic components of the power suit'?

Doesn't this basically mean that there were parts of the suit that were fused with her anatomy? Then they would have to CUT her to remove them, no?

Are you saying that they performed surgery on her suit, and not her?

I just don't think they would use the words 'surgically removed' if she weren't cut, and the surgery resulted in this -> 'dramatically altering my physical appearance' so how could she ever be ZSS again?

That image of samus with her suit being blown off does not really reveal anything about her appearance except that she has all 4 limbs and a head.

I'm saying it sounds like the suit was bio-mechanical in nature before being given to Samus. And yes, I'm saying they performed surgery on the suit, not her. The explanation for that and the line about it "dramatically altering (her) physical appearance" is likely because of how the suit is still part of Samus, as in a sense another, separate body in addition to her human body. It is not just an outfit she wears: when Samus is exploring and fighting, she is her suit, or the combination of her suit and her human body. So indeed, Samus's combat form as a bounty hunter was dramatically altered, even if the human body within was untouched.

When Samus's suit is blown off upon her defeat in Fusion, she's wearing the rather minimalist outfit she wears in the endings. There is plenty of skin clearly visible, and it does not appear disfigured in any way. I just checked this to verify it, and this should remove any question of the matter. You said that removing the Fusion Suit would "reveal a horribly scarred and disfigured body", and her defeat clearly shows that this is not the case.

[quote="Opium"][quote="TheOthin"]
The surgery was a reference to the organic components of the Power Suit, not to performing surgery on Samus herself.

If Samus ever gets defeated in Fusion, her suit gets blown off, revealing her to appear basically as she does in the endings. I think that confirms that her body under the suit remains intact.[/quote]
 
Can you explain 'organic components of the power suit'?

Doesn't this basically mean that there were parts of the suit that were fused with her anatomy?  Then they would have to CUT her to remove them, no?

Are you saying that they performed surgery on her [i]suit[/i], and not her?

I just don't think they would use the words 'surgically removed' if she weren't cut, and the surgery resulted in this -> 'dramatically altering my physical appearance' so how could she ever be ZSS again?

That image of samus with her suit being blown off does not really reveal anything about her appearance except that she has all 4 limbs and a head.[/quote]
I'm saying it sounds like the suit was bio-mechanical in nature before being given to Samus. And yes, I'm saying they performed surgery on the suit, not her. The explanation for that and the line about it "dramatically altering (her) physical appearance" is likely because of how the suit is still part of Samus, as in a sense another, separate body in addition to her human body. It is not just an outfit she wears: when Samus is exploring and fighting, she [i]is[/i] her suit, or the combination of her suit and her human body. So indeed, Samus's combat form as a bounty hunter was dramatically altered, even if the human body within was untouched.

When Samus's suit is blown off upon her defeat in Fusion, she's wearing the rather minimalist outfit she wears in the endings. There is plenty of skin clearly visible, and it does not appear disfigured in any way. I just checked this to verify it, and this should remove any question of the matter. You said that removing the Fusion Suit would "reveal a horribly scarred and disfigured body", and her defeat clearly shows that this is not the case.

Prime Hunter

2011-12-21 07:38:30 pm

That's a pretty good description and sums up how I see the suit for the most part. I didn't really specify that earlier, but now that I see it written here it does mirror thoughts I've had before. Plus, it's similar to some of the things I've seen in other Sci-Fi stories so it's not a new concept.

It might've been that old Super comic in Nintendo Power, but I seem to remember a line that said something along the lines of "the suit acts as a second skin" which supports this idea. The suit isn't just something she wears, but literally fuses and intertwines with her human system to the point where it's impossible to determine one from the other. It could also explain why the Federation couldn't take it off without Samus being awake, since they would have no idea how to disconnect it from her without possibly killing her. Hence the need for surgery and removing parts of Samus, but the part of Samus that was the suit.

As for why it works the way it does in Other M, that's a bit tougher. The second skin aspect is supported at times, but then the game turns around and contradicts that idea in the next scene. If it's supposed to work off her her will or some sort of mental capacity as Other M wants us to believe, wouldn't Samus falling unconscious (the X attack) remove the suit since she can't will it to remain active? Even when Samus passes out in Corruption after being attacked and corrupted by Dark Samus, the suit is still active the whole time she's out of it just like in Fusion. Off the top of my head, Other M is the only game that doesn't follow this.

And this topic isn't really about Icy Norfair anymore, is it?

That's a pretty good description and sums up how I see the suit for the most part. I didn't really specify that earlier, but now that I see it written here it does mirror thoughts I've had before. Plus, it's similar to some of the things I've seen in other Sci-Fi stories so it's not a new concept.

It might've been that old Super comic in Nintendo Power, but I seem to remember a line that said something along the lines of "the suit acts as a second skin" which supports this idea. The suit isn't just something she wears, but literally fuses and intertwines with her human system to the point where it's impossible to determine one from the other. It could also explain why the Federation couldn't take it off without Samus being awake, since they would have no idea how to disconnect it from her without possibly killing her. Hence the need for surgery and removing parts of Samus, but the part of Samus that was the suit.

As for why it works the way it does in Other M, that's a bit tougher. The second skin aspect is supported at times, but then the game turns around and contradicts that idea in the next scene. If it's supposed to work off her her will or some sort of mental capacity as Other M wants us to believe, wouldn't Samus falling unconscious (the X attack) remove the suit since she can't will it to remain active? Even when Samus passes out in Corruption after being attacked and corrupted by Dark Samus, the suit is still active the whole time she's out of it just like in Fusion. Off the top of my head, Other M is the only game that doesn't follow this.

[size="6"]And this topic isn't really about Icy Norfair anymore, is it?[/size]

Opium

Edit history:

Opium: 2011-12-21 08:12:26 pm

Opium: 2011-12-21 08:00:30 pm

2011-12-21 08:00:07 pm

It still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Let's say that her suit AND her body (or her suit/body if you prefer) was infected. She underwent surgery (and now we have to assume that the word for the first time means cutting into body AND machine or combination thereof), and the only thing that ended up getting fuct up was the suit part, and the body was completely unaltered. If they're so intertwined, then wouldn't they both get drastically altered? It's like you're saying that they are intertwined in every way, but for some reason only one was affected.
Is the fusion 'suit' even a suit? Do they even call it the fusion suit in game, or is it only called that for the MP1 bonus?

EDIT: just to clarify, I'm not arguing right or wrong. This type of stuff is really a matter of interpretation as far as im concerned.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-12-21 09:35:00 pm

2011-12-21 09:34:48 pm

As far as I know, the only time Samus gets knocked out and retains her suit is when she gets infected by the X. So it's possible that losing her suit is the default, but it was disrupted by the infection somehow.

Opium, the surgery failed - because they couldn't cut into her main body. They got rid of the infected areas they could, which were all in the suit, but they couldn't do anything to get rid of the X within her main body until they used the Metroid vaccine. It's not like cutting into the suit magically alters the body inside as well unless they cut all the way through; it's just they the changes only went as deep as the suit.

As far as I know, it's never referred to as the Fusion Suit (or even as "Fusion" anything) within the game, but I think it was called that in the manual; the relevance of that could be disputed. Certainly, the Varia Suit and Gravity Suit are called suits, even in Fusion, where they don't add anything on top of it.

Prime Hunter

2011-12-21 11:16:34 pm

That's a good point about them failing the surgery. I had forgotten about that.

It's kinda difficult for me to explain what I meant for some reason. Here's a hopefully better explanation:

I see it as the main Power Suit is the top layer, the "Fusion Suit" is the middle layer/what's left of the top layer after the surgery, and Samus herself (her human body) is the bottom layer. But all of it can be considered Samus when she's wearing the suit and it functions as an extension of her body to the point where she uses its abilities subconsciously like how we use our lungs, heart, or other organs without telling them to. And while we do differentiate between each of our organs, muscles, skin, etc., in the end they are all US. Everything comes together to make a singular person. For Samus, this is the kind of relationship I see when I spoke of how integrated the suit is with her body. The suit is basically another organ, or another layer of skin, or whatever you want to call it. But when it comes down to it, it is still Samus.

In this way Samus IS a cyborg, but rather than have cybernetic implants built directly into her human body she has the Power Suit itself and can put it on and take it off whenever she wants. But even then, she is not at her true capabilities whenever she's without her suit, meaning that a part of her IS lost whenever she's in the Zero Suit or otherwise, even if her human form remains the same regardless. (Which fits the cyborg description, right? Needing machine parts to supplement natural abilities and replicate them?)

The surgery cut away parts of the Power Suit that were the most easily accessible, to the innermost layers of the Power Suit. (In my example this is the Fusion Suit) Once they got to the innermost layers, the Fusion Suit and her human body, they couldn't keep going because it would harm the core of Samus, her most vital and vulnerable parts, the organs in a sense. This forced the Federation to look for the alternative in the vaccine to try and cure her of the X infection. The surgery itself only changes her suit, and Samus still drastically alters her appearance, but that change only reaches the higher layers because going deeper would harm the most important aspect of Samus, her human body.

The only major difference that can be attributed to the surgery, other than appearance, is that Samus takes more damage than usual throughout all of Fusion, which could be explained by the fact that Samus doesn't have as much armor as she used to. (It's the vaccine that makes her susceptible to cold weapons and environments, not the change in suits.) Think of any RPG armor system in this case - The Power Suit is the heaviest and most sturdy armor similar to what a warrior would have, where as the Fusion Suit is closer to the medium or light styles of armor that still protect you but not as well, something a spell caster or support class might wear. It's still armor, but not the same type and certainly not the same material or appearance. Only in this case, Samus and the suit are one being when she wears it as I outlined above, so it DOES "drastically alter her physical appearance" when going from the Power Suit to the Fusion Suit.

Yeah, a bit long winded, but hopefully that does a better job of explaining my view on the subject than what I said earlier.

That's a good point about them failing the surgery. I had forgotten about that.

It's kinda difficult for me to explain what I meant for some reason. Here's a hopefully better explanation:

I see it as the main Power Suit is the top layer, the "Fusion Suit" is the middle layer/what's left of the top layer after the surgery, and Samus herself (her human body) is the bottom layer.  But all of it can be considered Samus when she's wearing the suit and it functions as an extension of her body to the point where she uses its abilities subconsciously like how we use our lungs, heart, or other organs without telling them to. And while we do differentiate between each of our organs, muscles, skin, etc., in the end they are all US. Everything comes together to make a singular person. For Samus, this is the kind of relationship I see when I spoke of how integrated the suit is with her body. The suit is basically another organ, or another layer of skin, or whatever you want to call it. But when it comes down to it, it is still Samus.

In this way Samus IS a cyborg, but rather than have cybernetic implants built directly into her human body she has the Power Suit itself and can put it on and take it off whenever she wants. But even then, she is not at her true capabilities whenever she's without her suit, meaning that a part of her IS lost whenever she's in the Zero Suit or otherwise, even if her human form remains the same regardless. (Which fits the cyborg description, right? Needing machine parts to supplement natural abilities and replicate them?)

The surgery cut away parts of the Power Suit that were the most easily accessible, to the innermost layers of the Power Suit. (In my example this is the Fusion Suit) Once they got to the innermost layers, the Fusion Suit and her human body, they couldn't keep going because it would harm the core of Samus, her most vital and vulnerable parts, the organs in a sense. This forced the Federation to look for the alternative in the vaccine to try and cure her of the X infection. The surgery itself only changes her suit, and Samus still drastically alters her appearance, but that change only reaches the higher layers because going deeper would harm the most important aspect of Samus, her human body.

The only major difference that can be attributed to the surgery, other than appearance, is that Samus takes more damage than usual throughout all of Fusion, which could be explained by the fact that Samus doesn't have as much armor as she used to. (It's the vaccine that makes her susceptible to cold weapons and environments, not the change in suits.) Think of any RPG armor system in this case - The Power Suit is the heaviest and most sturdy armor similar to what a warrior would have, where as the Fusion Suit is closer to the medium or light styles of armor that still protect you but not as well, something a spell caster or support class might wear. It's still armor, but not the same type and certainly not the same material or appearance. Only in this case, Samus and the suit are one being when she wears it as I outlined above, so it DOES "drastically alter her physical appearance" when going from the Power Suit to the Fusion Suit.

Yeah, a bit long winded, but hopefully that does a better job of explaining my view on the subject than what I said earlier.

Baron Dante

2011-12-29 03:40:16 pm

But isn't the suit just simply something she can "call" with willpower, and as explained in Fusion, is integrated to her body.

Keeping it up requires her willingness, and if she dies and all that crap, it will fail. However, I would think her going unconcious does not count for this. That's why they had to surgically remove the suit.

Prime Hunter

2011-12-29 06:07:43 pm

That's where Other M's interpretation of the suit clashes with Fusion's and Corruption's versions of it. (Can't think of any others were it matters that much) It's both made of energy and a physical object depending on what game we're talking about, which is what throws things off for me at least.