why secret worlds are soooo cheating

2011-07-19 09:19:27 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from Yoko99:

22% has a coolness factor that 21% loses.

I wholeheartedly disagree. 21% has Hall of the Elders, Phazon Processing Center, Life Grove, and Phazon Core, which are all easy in a 22%, plus all of the other hard rooms.

Hazel

2011-07-20 11:38:01 am

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

I dont think 21% isn't legit, I just think its impossible so as far as low%ing goes I think of 22% and the lowest but thats only becasue I can't do a 21% :P

UchihaSasuke

2011-07-21 02:22:02 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

wooosh. another out of bounds shitstorm.

people should stop looking at out of bounds glitches as something different as the rest of the glitches. most of the in-bounds tricks are more game breaking and no one says a damn thing. 29 was the glitchless low%. 7 items get skipped by a lot if insane shit in-bounds and no one gives a damn. 1 more gets skipped by a few SWs and it is "no longer legit ololol".

my stance is that if the devs made a shoddy job and left room for these glitches, they should be the ones to be blamed for making a broken game. not the people who use what is available to make a speed run. also, people should learn to accept different play styles that they don't like. if someone finds 21% too hard to do, tough luck since it wasn't meant to be a cakewalk, but labeling it as "not legit" is throwing under the bus all the effort made on it by people.

also, it's not like this is a time trial site where everyone submits their times and now the glitch makes it impossible for people to compete. there's not even a ladder for any kind of times here. also, getting really good at the game involves a lot of effort regardless of what kind of tricks are in the game.

wooosh. another out of bounds shitstorm.

people should stop looking at out of bounds glitches as something different as the rest of the glitches. most of the in-bounds tricks are more game breaking and no one says a damn thing. 29 was the glitchless low%. 7 items get skipped by a lot if insane shit in-bounds and no one gives a damn. 1 more gets skipped by a few SWs and it is "no longer legit ololol".

my stance is that if the devs made a shoddy job and left room for these glitches, they should be the ones to be blamed for making a broken game. not the people who use what is available to make a speed run. also, people should learn to accept different play styles that they don't like. if someone finds 21% too hard to do, tough luck since it wasn't meant to be a cakewalk, but labeling it as "not legit" is throwing under the bus all the effort made on it by people.

also, it's not like this is a time trial site where everyone submits their times and now the glitch makes it impossible for people to compete. there's not even a ladder for any kind of times here. also, getting really good at the game involves a lot of effort regardless of what kind of tricks are in the game.

BioSpark

2011-07-21 03:01:15 am

and it's not like most of the game is skipped now. i remember when sda used prime as an example of that. but then again sda lolol

Behemoth

2011-07-21 10:27:35 am

Well the argument was never one of practicality, just the aesthetics of it. So therefore it's like art: Just an opinion

Jerry9

2011-07-21 05:23:09 pm

not evil,just hungry

poor engine coders. people go all crazy whenever someone shows off thier part of the game. sucks to always live in the shadow of the modelers. Sad

bartendorsparky

2011-07-21 05:55:49 pm

always move fast

the earth is flat!

Yoko99

2011-07-21 07:28:41 pm

Shitstorm? Dude, you're the one starting posts with "People should stop looking at..".
Why "should" people do x or y? Because you do? This turn of phrase is indeed prone to shitstorms, imho.
People "should" do as they feel like. And what I, personally, feel like doing is discussing exactly what Behemoth said: opinions, aesthetics and yes, art.

See, Parkour is like, a big thing for me.
It fits well with a life philosophy I like, one that's pretty much about realizing they are no real obstacles in life except the ones you set for yourself through.. well, fear, mostly. That by thinking outside the box, by believing in your own inner strength and pushing your limits, by looking at what surrounds you under different angles... you can do anything, go anywhere.
You know, free your mind and there is no spoon kinda thing.

Now look at SB'ing in Prime (and its evolution) under that perspective. That's how inspiring it's been to me.
Damn, I even thought of writing kickass poetry about it...
Why Prime? Why not other breakable games? Because no game breaks like Prime, like the Metroid series, it's always been special. Artistic.
OOB is not part of what I feel made SB'ing Metroid special.
There, just an opinion.
It's not about legality, it's not about competition, it's not a shitstorm, it's just an opinion.

I don't want to "cancel" the 21% run (or the SW's) or "invalidate" it/them or Miles's efforts.
If it CAN be done, it's fair that it should GET done, evidently.
I'm not trying to set up a SB police that'll come break your door down if you use SW's.
I'm not against it in any way, really.
And I'm totally behind anybody doing cool stuff in this game, ofc.

I mean, as I said, I too have an NSJ game on my memcard. I have fun bomb jumping just as much as the next guy, so... I learned how to navigate SW's, I could just as well use them, but pardon me if I'm also always gonna be looking for a SW-less 21% run.

I'm just out to discuss what I think is a clear difference in originality and style between Prime regular SB'ing and SW'ing. SB in Prime, I dunno, there's a sort of simplicity about it, and yet it is so sophisticated. It "embeds" so smoothly into the game... it fits. Going OOB is the exact opposite of that imo, it "takes it outside", and it's kind of like a spit in the face to the very thing that makes SB in Prime so unique and particular.
It's like making it no more than one of those other many games where you go OOB, damn, just a console command away from a no clipping state? Well, not exactly, but still too familiar. No?
Some of you guys here get me, some of you don't. I suppose if you've never felt that way, you never will.
Some guys immediately jump to some type of conflict situation... I get that too, I guess.
But the thing is there are no winners or losers here.
I say the 22% run has a type of purity and uniqueness to it that 21% loses. That's all, just comparing the runs as they are. I'm not talking about the people running the runs and I'm not talking about the tricks themselves. Of course 21% has lots of epicness within it, if only for all the cool bomb jumping. But that's not what I was saying.

In Vent Shaft, it's Samus being epic with her bombs and ignoring the E-tank cos she 's badass and knows she don't need it. In PPC, it's her, agile as a cat. All over Tallon, it's still her being the same old kickass space hunter that she was in Super, bomb jumping everywhere and pulling crazy secret stuff from her suit, like weird beams, crystal flashes, and whatnot. Walljumping all around.
When she's oob, she's not being agile, she's not being badass, she's being glitched. Character continuity is broken, she's not a very agile and inventive alien tech-equipped space hunter anymore on a savage planetscape anymore, she's... I dunno what she is, some kind of black hole travelling nobody She's not on Tallon anymore, she's not in our universe, she sure is'nt inside Metroid Prime anymore, cos' Metroid Prime takes place on Tallon. Breaking is done on Tallon... Dunno how to explain better than that. It's the feeling of it, the shortcut is not pertinent to the fictitious context of the game.
Not a fan of the X-Ray climb for example. Or of the door climb in the NES game. Kind of the same to me. Loss of charm. And that's really all I was saying. Sorry if anyone understood differently.
And about the very long post. It's late..

Shitstorm? Dude, you're the one starting posts with "People should stop looking at..".
Why "should" people do x or y? Because you do? This turn of phrase is indeed prone to shitstorms, imho.
People "should" do as they feel like. And what I, personally, feel like doing is discussing exactly what Behemoth said: opinions, aesthetics and yes, art.

See, Parkour is like, a big thing for me.
It fits well with a life philosophy I like, one that's pretty much about realizing they are no real obstacles in life except the ones you set for yourself through.. well, fear, mostly. That by thinking outside the box, by believing in your own inner strength and pushing your limits, by looking at what surrounds you under different angles... you can do anything, go anywhere.
You know, free your mind and there is no spoon kinda thing.

Now look at SB'ing in Prime (and its evolution) under that perspective. That's how inspiring it's been to me.
Damn, I even thought of writing kickass poetry about it...
Why Prime? Why not other breakable games? Because no game breaks like Prime, like the Metroid series, it's always been special. Artistic. 
OOB is not part of what I feel made SB'ing Metroid special.
There, just an opinion.
It's not about legality, it's not about competition, it's not a shitstorm, it's just an opinion.

I don't want to "cancel" the 21% run (or the SW's) or "invalidate" it/them or Miles's efforts.
If it CAN be done, it's fair that it should GET done, evidently.
I'm not trying to set up a SB police that'll come break your door down if you use SW's.
I'm not against it in any way, really. 
And I'm totally behind anybody doing cool stuff in this game, ofc.

I mean, as I said, I too have an NSJ game on my memcard. I have fun bomb jumping just as much as the next guy, so... I learned how to navigate SW's, I could just as well use them, but pardon me if I'm also always gonna be looking for a SW-less 21% run.

I'm just out to discuss what I think is a clear difference in originality and style between Prime regular SB'ing and SW'ing. SB in Prime, I dunno, there's a sort of simplicity about it, and yet it is so sophisticated. It "embeds" so smoothly into the game... it fits. Going OOB is the exact opposite of that imo, it "takes it outside", and it's kind of like a spit in the face to the very thing that makes SB in Prime so unique and particular.
It's like making it no more than one of those other many games where you go OOB, damn, just a console command away from a no clipping state? Well, not exactly, but still too familiar. No?
Some of you guys here get me, some of you don't. I suppose if you've never felt that way, you never will.
Some guys immediately jump to some type of conflict situation... I get that too, I guess.
But the thing is there are no winners or losers here.
I say the 22% run has a type of purity and uniqueness to it that 21% loses. That's all, just comparing the runs as they are. I'm not talking about the people running the runs and I'm not talking about the tricks themselves. Of course 21% has lots of epicness within it, if only for all the cool bomb jumping. But that's not what I was saying.

In Vent Shaft, it's Samus being epic with her bombs and ignoring the E-tank cos she 's badass and knows she don't need it. In PPC, it's her, agile as a cat. All over Tallon, it's still her being the same old kickass space hunter that she was in Super, bomb jumping everywhere and pulling crazy secret stuff from her suit, like weird beams, crystal flashes, and whatnot. Walljumping all around.
When she's oob, she's not being agile, she's not being badass, she's being glitched. Character continuity is broken, she's not a very agile and inventive alien tech-equipped space hunter anymore on a savage planetscape anymore, she's... I dunno what she is, some kind of black hole travelling nobody She's not on Tallon anymore, she's not in our universe, she sure is'nt inside Metroid Prime anymore, cos' Metroid Prime takes place on Tallon. Breaking is done on Tallon... Dunno how to explain better than that. It's the feeling of it, the shortcut is not pertinent to the fictitious context of the game. 
Not a fan of the X-Ray climb for example. Or of the door climb in the NES game. Kind of the same to me. Loss of charm. And that's really all I was saying. Sorry if anyone understood differently.
And about the very long post. It's late..

arkarian

2011-07-21 07:30:21 pm

red chamber dream

i don't think anyone actually gives a shit tbh

Turtle

2011-07-21 07:31:34 pm

I like turtles.

He does kinda have a point. I mean, SWs are ugly as all get out.

Yoko99

2011-07-21 07:48:43 pm

So.. what's with all the condescendance, arkarian? Get out of the house much?

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2011-07-21 07:51:38 pm

2011-07-21 07:51:28 pm

Sorry, but when your first post in a topic that hadn't had a post in 6 months is

Quote:

You had me fooled. I consider the minimum to still be 22, personnally...

I really don't give a fuck about what you have to say. Can we split all of this shit out of the topic, please?

Yoko99

2011-07-21 07:54:30 pm

I think I've explained exactly what I meant by that. I apologized enough times too, for how I expressed it. So... at this point, yeah, it's probably better to clean off the thread. I'll take this experience as a reminder as to why I scarcely post, k? Do everybody a favour.

UchihaSasuke

2011-07-21 07:55:10 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

there have been too many of these arguments against OoB in the last years in SDA especially and sometimes here and they start the same way most of the time.
i guess i lose my composure faster each time one of these pop up.

if you felt i attacked your opinion, my bad.

for me, a glitch is a glitch. it doesn't matter if it is a ghetto jump or going OoB. every time a glitch gets pulled off fast and cleanly, it surprises me and it doesn't matter what kind of trick it is. IBBF done as fast as possible is as impressive as escaping PPC fast or making it across Vent shaft fast.
i don't see the game's limits as limits within what the story intends, but more like on what the game's engine itself has as limits. the engine allows you to go OoB and cross some rooms from outside. the game doesn't let you glitch items out of nothing. the game lets you load just 2 rooms at once. the game lets you do 1 space jump on the air. the game doesn't let you kill omega pirate without X-Ray (as of now. you never know...)

also, what about Infinite speed/Flickerball? that's a pretty weird and convoluted glitch and it works perfectly in-bounds. the effects of IS make even OoB look like nothing special.

there have been too many of these arguments against OoB in the last years in SDA especially and sometimes here and they start the same way most of the time.
i guess i lose my composure faster each time one of these pop up.

if you felt i attacked your opinion, my bad.

for me, a glitch is a glitch. it doesn't matter if it is a ghetto jump or going OoB. every time a glitch gets pulled off fast and cleanly, it surprises me and it doesn't matter what kind of trick it is. IBBF done as fast as possible is as impressive as escaping PPC fast or making it across Vent shaft fast. 
i don't see the game's limits as limits within what the story intends, but more like on what the game's engine itself has as limits. the engine allows you to go OoB and cross some rooms from outside. the game doesn't let you glitch items out of nothing. the game lets you load just 2 rooms at once. the game lets you do 1 space jump on the air. the game doesn't let you kill omega pirate without X-Ray (as of now. you never know...)

also, what about Infinite speed/Flickerball? that's a pretty weird and convoluted glitch and it works perfectly in-bounds. the effects of IS make even OoB look like nothing special.

Hazel

2011-07-21 11:17:56 pm

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

Just to be annoying, in all technicality ISB/IS hits everything "loaded" in and out of bounds :P meaning if there was a trigger OoB you'd hit it.... I'd call that "going" out of bounds, but no one seems to care about that,

If theres no codes used, its legit plain and simple

Yoko99

2011-07-22 04:59:08 pm

This thread has been created in my name without my consent, putting words in my mouth that I've never said (the thread title). Don't think that's very fair.

If some admin could just delete it altogether, or at least give me control over "my own" thread and the things I supposedly say, I'd be grateful.

Thanks.

Quietus

2011-07-22 05:35:38 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Your name is only on it because it was you that began the discussion before it was split. I kinda agree about the childish title, but it's probably not worth worrying about. Neutral

tomatobob

2011-07-22 05:47:58 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

You can't edit the title? Thought the original poster could do that.

Do excuse the tone of the title though, it's an old argument we've had many times in the past and it's always the same and a lot of us are just kinda burned out on the whole thing.

Quietus

2011-07-22 06:12:56 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

It's probably because the OP (where the split started anyway) was not signed in, and is therefore a guest. Mind you, I'm sure it doesn't usually do that.

tomatobob

2011-07-22 06:23:49 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Oh that's right I forgot he guest posted that.

And that's why you don't guest post.

Prime Hunter

2011-07-22 07:14:54 pm

I used to be against Secret Worlds too back in the day, but over time I've grown more used to them seeing as they're basically all we've got left in most cases as far as finding anything new is concerned. I still don't use them at all, but that's just my playing style and the fact that it always felt like there was a steep learning curve for how to use them properly staring me in the face, whether that's actually true or not.

It might have been that originally I saw them as a way to bypass obstacles in what felt like an uncreative way (why deal with this mess when you can just go around it sort of thing), but after so many years of hearing and seeing what we do with them I realize that's not entirely true. You have to be incredibly creative with SWs at times, either to get into them in the first place or to be able to pull off what we need them to do. They're a different kind of obstacle, one I'm not accustomed to dealing with yet because of my own pre-conceived notions about what Secret Worlds mean in the grand scheme of things.

I used to be against Secret Worlds too back in the day, but over time I've grown more used to them seeing as they're basically all we've got left in most cases as far as finding anything new is concerned. I still don't use them at all, but that's just my playing style and the fact that it always felt like there was a steep learning curve for how to use them properly staring me in the face, whether that's actually true or not.

It might have been that originally I saw them as a way to bypass obstacles in what felt like an uncreative way (why deal with this mess when you can just go around it sort of thing), but after so many years of hearing and seeing what we do with them I realize that's not entirely true. You have to be incredibly creative with SWs at times, either to get into them in the first place or to be able to pull off what we need them to do. They're a different kind of obstacle, one I'm not accustomed to dealing with yet because of my own pre-conceived notions about what Secret Worlds mean in the grand scheme of things.

Yoko99

2011-07-22 08:33:10 pm

Oh. Yeah, that's right. Damn. First post after a few years, guess I lost the edge.
Well, still, whoever put that title up is really insisting to put just those same words over again in my mouth even though they understood perfectly I was talking about something totally different. Talk about war-mongering.
I must say I'm not worrying about this ofc, just disappointed though.
Particularly at you, ark. From the warmth of the welcome message that you sent me several years ago to this?
Oh well...
I know, bob, I was around too "in the past".. I remember the old argument all too well, but that's precisely where I thought it was, in the past.
I know my very first post could've been interpreted as flamebait, I was just expressing my own immediate disappointment there and did'nt do a very good job at it, I admit.
Once I understood I woke a slumbering beast, I did everything in my power to try and explain my opinion in a civil way while clearly acknowledging the sensitivity of the whole "SW being legal/illegal" thing.

But no, cheat, cheat, cheat, nobody cares, nobody cares. Meh..
I really felt like I was back in school there guys, no offence intended, but that's true.
Impossible to reason, to have any kind of dialog. Aren't we also here to enjoy the community as it is?
Actually quite impressive this faculty to stubbornly ignore what is being clearly laid down in front of you as a pacific behaviour and still blindly respond in such passive/agressive ways. At such an advanced age.
I really was only trying to discuss something, which has, imvho, some interest to it.
This is a discussion forum after all..
But anyway.

Sorry I pushed your nice thread at the top of the list by making it all dirty, Miles. Won't do it again.
Now if anyone (arkarian? feel like doing some real admin work?) wants to change the title to "Are secret worlds COOL enough to be REAL Prime SB?" or "SWs are necessary for 21%, but are they COOL?" or anything along those lines, then I guess they'll make me a little happier a man. Make it a question, so it's clear it's just for debating, I dunno. In the end, that's what I'm out here to do, eventually. If I got this whole thread to myself to talk about the stuff I'm interested in discussing, sounds fair, could I get it named please, pretty please? Get over this whole childish bull, honestly?

Oh. Yeah, that's right. Damn. First post after a few years, guess I lost the edge.
Well, still, whoever put that title up is really insisting to put just those same words over again in my mouth even though they understood perfectly I was talking about something totally different. Talk about war-mongering.
I must say I'm not worrying about this ofc, just disappointed though.
Particularly at you, ark. From the warmth of the welcome message that you sent me several years ago to this?
Oh well...
I know, bob, I was around too "in the past".. I remember the old argument all too well, but that's precisely where I thought it was, in the past.
I know my very first post could've been interpreted as flamebait, I was just expressing my own immediate disappointment there and did'nt do a very good job at it, I admit.
Once I understood I woke a slumbering beast, I did everything in my power to try and explain my opinion in a civil way while clearly acknowledging the sensitivity of the whole "SW being legal/illegal" thing.

But no, cheat, cheat, cheat, nobody cares, nobody cares. Meh..
I really felt like I was back in school there guys, no offence intended, but that's true.
Impossible to reason, to have any kind of dialog. Aren't we also here to enjoy the community as it is?
Actually quite impressive this faculty to stubbornly ignore what is being clearly laid down in front of you as a pacific behaviour and still blindly respond in such passive/agressive ways. At such an advanced age.
I really was only trying to discuss something, which has, imvho, some interest to it.
This is a discussion forum after all..
But anyway.

Sorry I pushed your nice thread at the top of the list by making it all dirty, Miles. Won't do it again.
Now if anyone (arkarian? feel like doing some real admin work?) wants to change the title to "Are secret worlds COOL enough to be REAL Prime SB?" or "SWs are necessary for 21%, but are they COOL?" or anything along those lines, then I guess they'll make me a little happier a man. Make it a question, so it's clear it's just for debating, I dunno. In the end, that's what I'm out here to do, eventually. If I got this whole thread to myself to talk about the stuff I'm interested in discussing, sounds fair, could I get it named please, pretty please? Get over this whole childish bull, honestly?

Yoko99

2011-07-22 09:34:35 pm

On.. topic? (Who knows, really?):

I'm not "against" secret worlds, Prime, never been.
I do feel you about the creativity thing though, and what you describe has indeed happened to me too, and is still happening. Getting used to them and all. I too was troubled by this sense of "why this mess when I can go around"? Probably also because I understand now it's not as easy as just exiting and entering wherever you feel like it, I got used to it. Got to try my hand it, and now have a better understanding and respect for the skill people who navigates them decently demonstrate, no question there.
SWs have their own charms, sure. Entry points are always very enjoyable, obviously. The skills developed in navigating them (the learning curve does appear to be pretty steep), and the fact that they allow for necessary shortcuts add even more to the charm and the "affection" we may have for them. But think about what you said for a sec, "all we've got left".
It's kinda like that though, is'nt it? SW's aren't the latest tricks, they're the LAST tricks.
I, for one, feel it's like that, and it's something I wanna accept fully and happily, why not. Sure don't wanna fool myself.

And we say "they", but it's really one, isn't it? Not saying "one big trick", but. Still just one CATEGORY, kind of, of particular skills and tricks, right?

You saying creativity made me think about "regular" SB: Where does creativity lie?
In Samus' abilities, yes, but mostly how she handles her environment.
Your environment is the very thing you are trying to overcome, to evolve in, and it gives you some elements to help you do just that, but not before you are in perfect sync with it and with your own equipment/body/skills. I find a very good representation of that is the Vent Shaft type bomb jump (I still think it's the BEST trick in the book). Added to that kind of tranquillity or.. purity which I feel emanates from that is also the fact that it's different every time! There is so much variety it's infinite! Every room being different, every room has its own load of secret routes.
There's no telling what new little corner of an invisible ledge the next inventive runner will use.

OOB misses that variety and creativity in my opinion.
Not that it does'nt offer any, just that it's nothing comparable to what the rest of the SB art has to offer in this aspect.
Nothing to do with being "a pussy if you use them", or "a cheater". No one has ever said anything about fair or not fair use.

My 34 cents.

PS: Thanks Prime, this is more like the kind of dynamic I expect from a discussion.

On.. topic? (Who knows, really?):

I'm not "against" secret worlds, Prime, never been.
I do feel you about the creativity thing though, and what you describe has indeed happened to me too, and is still happening. Getting used to them and all. I too was troubled by this sense of "why this mess when I can go around"? Probably also because I understand now it's not as easy as just exiting and entering wherever you feel like it, I got used to it. Got to try my hand it, and now have a better understanding and respect for the skill people who navigates them decently demonstrate, no question there.
SWs have their own charms, sure. Entry points are always very enjoyable, obviously. The skills developed in navigating them (the learning curve does appear to be pretty steep), and the fact that they allow for necessary shortcuts add even more to the charm and the "affection" we may have for them. But think about what you said for a sec, "all we've got left".
It's kinda like that though, is'nt it? SW's aren't the latest tricks, they're the LAST tricks.
I, for one, feel it's like that, and it's something I wanna accept fully and happily, why not. Sure don't wanna fool myself.

And we say "they", but it's really one, isn't it? Not saying "one big trick", but. Still just one CATEGORY, kind of, of particular skills and tricks, right?

You saying creativity made me think about "regular" SB: Where does creativity lie?
In Samus' abilities, yes, but mostly how she handles her environment. 
Your environment is the very thing you are trying to overcome, to evolve in, and it gives you some elements to help you do just that, but not before you are in perfect sync with it and with your own equipment/body/skills. I find a very good representation of that is the Vent Shaft type bomb jump (I still think it's the BEST trick in the book). Added to that kind of tranquillity or.. purity which I feel emanates from that is also the fact that it's different every time! There is so much variety it's infinite! Every room being different, every room has its own load of secret routes.
There's no telling what new little corner of an invisible ledge the next inventive runner will use.

OOB misses that variety and creativity in my opinion. 
Not that it does'nt offer any, just that it's nothing comparable to what the rest of the SB art has to offer in this aspect.
Nothing to do with being "a pussy if you use them", or "a cheater". No one has ever said anything about fair or not fair use.

My 34 cents.

PS: Thanks Prime, this is more like the kind of dynamic I expect from a discussion.

tomatobob

2011-07-22 09:40:41 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

The problem is no one really wants to debate this anymore. We've done the dance on and off for years, and people sort of realized it really wasn't that big of a deal and stopped caring so much, then a couple recent shitstorms popped up over on SDA and a little bit here before that and the argument against was the same as it always was. Only now people had seen some actual results from the SW crowd and were much more interested in seeing where it went so the roles sort of flipped and after all was said and done SDA got their secret world equality and everyone was just dead tired of all this nonsense.

Everything for or against their existence has been said and those interested will stay interested and those that think its ugly or cheap of fake or cheating or whatever personal reason they have for not liking them will continue not liking them. Every reason you gave in this thread has been given before and its fine that you think that way, but it's just been done to death. The people that really care about secret world stuff are not in it for the aesthetics or narrative consequences, they're in it to break it. That's kinda what m2k2 was founded on, breaking the hell out of Metroid Prime, and the only way forward anyone can think of at this point requires secret worlds. If you want to try getting people into some more in world breaks to get down to 20-21% you're welcome to and many people would be glad to see results, but pretty much every possible idea's been burned out at this point.

Discussions on the subject just don't get anywhere, they never did, it's entirely based on personal opinion. There are no plain simple facts to base it off of, you either like them, don't really care, or you don't like them that's all there is, there's really nothing to discuss there. It's like this old song that just refuses to go away and people are just really sick of hearing it by now.

And admittedly some of the responses have been snippy, but to be fair if I'd dumped as much time and effort into getting to 21% and completing a run as these guys did I'd be pretty touchy about having it called "fake" or "less cool" for the umpteenth time, too.

Also, I'd like to add that making a statement into a question doesn't really make it a debate, it just seems non committal and kinda weasel-y. Say what you mean with confidence if you want a debate.

Also also:

Quote from Yoko99:

So.. what's with all the condescendance, arkarian? Get out of the house much?

I always love that people go to the "Don't get out much" attack on the internet. If you're posting on the internet yourself you forfeit the use of that approach. Especially when you modify it with a complaint of condescension.

The problem is no one really wants to debate this anymore. We've done the dance on and off for years, and people sort of realized it really wasn't that big of a deal and stopped caring so much, then a couple recent shitstorms popped up over on SDA and a little bit here before that and the argument against was the same as it always was. Only now people had seen some actual results from the SW crowd and were much more interested in seeing where it went so the roles sort of flipped and after all was said and done SDA got their secret world equality and everyone was just dead tired of all this nonsense.

Everything for or against their existence has been said and those interested will stay interested and those that think its ugly or cheap of fake or cheating or whatever personal reason they have for not liking them will continue not liking them. Every reason you gave in this thread has been given before and its fine that you think that way, but it's just been done to death. The people that really care about secret world stuff are not in it for the aesthetics or narrative consequences, they're in it to break it. That's kinda what m2k2 was founded on, breaking the hell out of Metroid Prime, and the only way forward anyone can think of at this point requires secret worlds. If you want to try getting people into some more in world breaks to get down to 20-21% you're welcome to and many people would be glad to see results, but pretty much every possible idea's been burned out at this point.

Discussions on the subject just don't get anywhere, they never did, it's entirely based on personal opinion. There are no plain simple facts to base it off of, you either like them, don't really care, or you don't like them that's all there is, there's really nothing to discuss there. It's like this old song that just refuses to go away and people are just really sick of hearing it by now.

And admittedly some of the responses have been snippy, but to be fair if I'd dumped as much time and effort into getting to 21% and completing a run as these guys did I'd be pretty touchy about having it called "fake" or "less cool" for the umpteenth time, too.

Also, I'd like to add that making a statement into a question doesn't really make it a debate, it just seems non committal and kinda weasel-y. Say what you mean with confidence if you want a debate.

Also also:
[quote="Yoko99"]So.. what's with all the condescendance, arkarian? Get out of the house much?[/quote]
I always love that people go to the "Don't get out much" attack on the internet. If you're posting on the internet yourself you forfeit the use of that approach. Especially when you modify it with a complaint of condescension.

Yoko99

2011-07-22 10:14:46 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

Say what you mean with confidence if you want a debate.

Yeah.. I thought I'd tried that.

Well... I did'nt realize the war had been raging that hard. Just felt like making an interesting point, is all. I honestly had no idea it had gotten that sensitive. I mean, I realized I offended Miles, but even after clearly apologizing (enough times) and trying to explain how I never meant to call "fake" or "lame" his own efforts and achievements, just talking about personal aesthetic preference of some tricks over others, I still felt I was being treated unjustly somewhat.

Well, an attack, yes and no. I did mean "chill out" kinda, but I also used that line on purpose expressively to point out that we were going the classic senseless internet flaming road. And that there was no need. Hopefully ark ain't a fool and he caught up on that. I'm really not out here to insult people or make enemies. And he really was being condescendant.

I regret a few things I've said mself, obviously.

Anyway.. if it's all said and done.. Guess I'll look for topics to post about.

[quote="tomatobob"]Say what you mean with confidence if you want a debate.[/quote]

Yeah.. I thought I'd tried that.

Well... I did'nt realize the war had been raging that hard. Just felt like making an interesting point, is all. I honestly had no idea it had gotten that sensitive. I mean, I realized I offended Miles, but even after clearly apologizing (enough times) and trying to explain how I never meant to call "fake" or "lame" his own efforts and achievements, just talking about personal aesthetic preference of some tricks over others, I still felt I was being treated unjustly somewhat.

Well, an attack, yes and no. I did mean "chill out" kinda, but I also used that line on purpose expressively to point out that we were going the classic senseless internet flaming road. And that there was no need. Hopefully ark ain't a fool and he caught up on that. I'm really not out here to insult people or make enemies. And he really was being condescendant.

I regret a few things I've said mself, obviously.

Anyway.. if it's all said and done.. Guess I'll look for topics to post about.