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Hello everybody. I've been working on the Speedrun article on Wikipedia for a few months now. Originally, it was relatively small, but now it's reached a point where there's almost an abundance of information on our favorite subject. There's still a lot of work ahead, but it's pretty nice as it is right now, too (and has been officially labelled as "good article" a while back).

However, a while back, someone left a message on the discussion page of the article, stating that there's not enough about Metroid in the article. I myself am not very knowledgeable on Metroid speedrunning, so I'm unable to clearly see for myself if this is true.

As such, I'd like to ask you to check out the article, read it (or parts of it) and say whether you find that it covers Metroid speedrunning correctly. You might have a lot more information to add, so feel free to edit it or dump hints or suggestions on the discussion page.

Your help is greatly appreciated!
Thread title:  
Well, I can't say much because I don't actually know any of the games you mention besides SM and Zelda.  But I note the paragraph on SM includes this:

Quote from Wikipedia's current version:
Due to the way the game is laid out, several different run types or tiers that incorporate different completion percentages have been done. The most popular type, which focuses solely on finishing the game as fast as possible with no other prerequisites, is aptly named the any% run. Besides it, speedrunners also attempt runs in which all items are obtained, called the 100% run.[6] The tool-assisted community has also made a run in which as few items as possible are obtained, accounting for a completion percentage of 14%; this is called a low% run, the "low" usually being substituted for the actual completion percentage attained in the run. Even though much fewer items are taken in this run, it's slower than the route in the any% run because of how long it takes to kill Ridley and Mother Brain with only the Ice Beam.[7]


First, is there documentation that SM's any% is more popular than 100%?  Unless there's some strong indication of that I'd remove the descriptor, as it seems kind of subjective. 

Second, the low/any/100% distinction exists for games besides this one, and should probably be moved outside of the specific game discussion.  Though I dunno how many other games make 100% so clearly definable.  Also, the last sentence is unnecessary detail, since the 14% speed path doesn't even have the ice beam; probably better to just mention generally the difficulty of fighting bosses with reduced firepower.

Third, ZM is totally absent, even though Fusion is mentioned briefly.  One could argue that there isn't much to say specifically about ZM, but certainly low% in that game is more active than low% in SM.


Also, there's the following: "by Christina Norman (aka. "Strunoph") in January 1994 when he launched ..."
"Christina" and "he" don't seem to go together.
I don't know much about them, but some mention of the many Secret World discoveries could be useful. I have never used them before, (I did manage to get into one recently through Metroid Prime to see what they were like) so I'm not sure what would be worthwhile to include or not. (I know there is a reference to them through the "Get stuck Inside the Walls" part, but Secret Worlds in general aren't described much.) You could probably get more information from some of the others around here.

Besides that, I can't think of any important change that would be needed. (I've only been into official Metroid series Sequence Breaking/Speed Running for less than two years now, so I don't know much about the early things. I know there is a history of it concerning Metroid Prime somewhere around here, but I can't remember where.
Quote from Chanoire:
Well, I can't say much because I don't actually know any of the games you mention besides SM and Zelda.

Actually, the Zelda section is one of the paragraphs that still needs lots of work. If you know a lot about Zelda speedrunning, it would be greatly appreciated if you could help me out, if just by giving a small overview of the things that should be in there.

Quote from Chanoire:
But I note the paragraph on SM includes this:

Quote from Wikipedia's current version:
Due to the way the game is laid out, several different run types or tiers that incorporate different completion percentages have been done. The most popular type, which focuses solely on finishing the game as fast as possible with no other prerequisites, is aptly named the any% run. Besides it, speedrunners also attempt runs in which all items are obtained, called the 100% run.[6] The tool-assisted community has also made a run in which as few items as possible are obtained, accounting for a completion percentage of 14%; this is called a low% run, the "low" usually being substituted for the actual completion percentage attained in the run. Even though much fewer items are taken in this run, it's slower than the route in the any% run because of how long it takes to kill Ridley and Mother Brain with only the Ice Beam.[7]


First, is there documentation that SM's any% is more popular than 100%?  Unless there's some strong indication of that I'd remove the descriptor, as it seems kind of subjective.

I never bothered to source that statement because it seems as though any% runs are usually more popular than their 100% counterparts on pretty much most of the places I've went to. I've accepted it as something typical of the speedrunning community. If it's different for some communities, such as this one, then you're right: I need to figure out if this is true and source it.

Taking a quick peek at the Archive's download statistics, it seems that you're right: the 100% run has been downloaded 5,267 times and the any% run has been downloaded 916 times. I still think that it's usually true that 100% runs are less popular than any% runs, but that there might be an exception for Metroid series runs. What do you think?

Quote from Chanoire:
Second, the low/any/100% distinction exists for games besides this one, and should probably be moved outside of the specific game discussion.  Though I dunno how many other games make 100% so clearly definable.  Also, the last sentence is unnecessary detail, since the 14% speed path doesn't even have the ice beam; probably better to just mention generally the difficulty of fighting bosses with reduced firepower.

I've talked about the distinction between low/any/100% runs briefly in the header, but you're right that it's too prominently mentioned in the Metroid paragraph. I'll move it outside of that section, as it pertains to speedrunning in general.

As for the 14% completion run: are you sure that this run doesn't use the Ice Beam? I didn't watch it myself. I'm talking about the tool-assisted run by Terimakasih, of which the description at NESVideos reads "The only beams used are Charge and Ice. This unique path makes the run very interesting but unfortunately causes the later boss battles to be long, as not many missiles are available." [iki.fi].

Quote from Chanoire:
Third, ZM is totally absent, even though Fusion is mentioned briefly.  One could argue that there isn't much to say specifically about ZM, but certainly low% in that game is more active than low% in SM.

I don't know much about this game, so I don't know what kind of interesting things I could say about it besides just mentioning what the fastest times are. Do you have any suggestions?

Quote from Chanoire:
Also, there's the following: "by Christina Norman (aka. "Strunoph") in January 1994 when he launched ..."
"Christina" and "he" don't seem to go together.

True. I think I looked this up one time. I'm not sure why I didn't change it. So maybe I looked it up and found that Christina is really a he, but I doubt it. I'll try finding it out again.

Thanks for your help!

Quote from Prime Hunter:
I don't know much about them, but some mention of the many Secret World discoveries could be useful. I have never used them before, (I did manage to get into one recently through Metroid Prime to see what they were like) so I'm not sure what would be worthwhile to include or not. (I know there is a reference to them through the "Get stuck Inside the Walls" part, but Secret Worlds in general aren't described much.) You could probably get more information from some of the others around here.

Could you give me more information as to what the "Secret World" discoveries are? Are they rooms you can reach via glitches that don't show up in the game's intended path?

Quote from Prime Hunter:
I know there is a history of it concerning Metroid Prime somewhere around here, but I can't remember where.

If you're referring to the two topics in which the Metroid 2002 history is explained: yes, I used a lot of information from those topics, and mentioned them as reference material at the bottom of the article.
red chamber dream
Quote from Msikma:
Could you give me more information as to what the "Secret World" discoveries are? Are they rooms you can reach via glitches that don't show up in the game's intended path?

That's pretty close. They're not really rooms; they're white space outside of the regular game world.

Go here and then to "Secret Worlds" for more.
Quote from Msikma:
As for the 14% completion run: are you sure that this run doesn't use the Ice Beam?


There are thirteen items that must be gotten for a low% run, no matter what.  In addition, one must have either the ice beam or the speed booster, which brings the total to 14, but in two different ways.  I do not think there are any videos of a 14% run with speed booster on the Internet Archive.
From what I understand about Secret Worlds, through the use of some very challenging maneuvers you can bypass certain portions of rooms that you normally can't get past using normal speed tricks. Since you physically go outside of the game world, you can bypass things like doors that you would need a certain weapon/items to open. (I am thinking of something like in Echoes where you can bypass that Echo Door before Quadraxis without having the Echo Visor. I remember somebody here doing that, but I can't remember where it was mentioned.)

Edit: Somebody please correct me if I am wrong about this. I haven't paid too much attention to Secret Worlds in the past, so I don't know too much more about them than what I've said already.
Quote from Msikma:
Actually, the Zelda section is one of the paragraphs that still needs lots of work. If you know a lot about Zelda speedrunning, it would be greatly appreciated if you could help me out, if just by giving a small overview of the things that should be in there.

Sadly, I'm not very up on Zelda speedrunning beyond the threads I read occasionally; I'm just somewhat familiar with the games themselves.  But I'm sure someone will help you out.

Quote:
I never bothered to source that statement because it seems as though any% runs are usually more popular than their 100% counterparts on pretty much most of the places I've went to. I've accepted it as something typical of the speedrunning community. If it's different for some communities, such as this one, then you're right: I need to figure out if this is true and source it.

Taking a quick peek at the Archive's download statistics, it seems that you're right: the 100% run has been downloaded 5,267 times and the any% run has been downloaded 916 times. I still think that it's usually true that 100% runs are less popular than any% runs, but that there might be an exception for Metroid series runs. What do you think?

I think for Super Metroid specifically 100% is more popular, probably because of the excitement about getting a 1-hour run, which nearly killed the site (detailed in some other threads here, will need to find you a link), and then later the 0:56 and 0:55 being posted a day apart.  I couldn't say for the other games in the series.

Quote:
As for the 14% completion run: are you sure that this run doesn't use the Ice Beam? I didn't watch it myself. I'm talking about the tool-assisted run by Terimakasih, of which the description at NESVideos reads "The only beams used are Charge and Ice. This unique path makes the run very interesting but unfortunately causes the later boss battles to be long, as not many missiles are available." [iki.fi].

This was already clarified above, but yeah, there are two ways to do 14%.  Either the Ice Beam or the Speed Booster can be used to get through the first zebetite, but the latter has not been recorded.  I'd really like to see it, but it'd be even slower without the ice beam.  There's a non-TAS 14% Ice up on Archive as well, though done on an emulator.

Quote:
Quote from Chanoire:
Third, ZM is totally absent, even though Fusion is mentioned briefly.  One could argue that there isn't much to say specifically about ZM, but certainly low% in that game is more active than low% in SM.

I don't know much about this game, so I don't know what kind of interesting things I could say about it besides just mentioning what the fastest times are. Do you have any suggestions?

Well, a point of interest is that the minimum percent on Hard mode is actually lower in the European version than in the US and Japanese ones, thanks to some missile blocks that reappear in the latter but not the European one.

Low% is more brutal in ZM than in SM and Fusion, because you can get pickups everywhere.  Fusion gives you everything useful as part of the game, including 10-15 (super) missiles, and SM requires charge beam and a certain number of missiles because there are no pickups from Ridley and Mother Brain.  But ZM gives you those refills, and so the minimum is determined by other barriers -- a mere three missiles, in the US/JPN game, and 2 in European, so a low% is only the power beam and those very few missiles for firepower.  That's more than needs to go in the article, of course.
PAGE BREAKER
Ready and willing.
Don't forget that in SM you're also required to get 3 or so energy tanks to survive MB's scripted laser blast. An extra 300 energy goes a long way.
Yeah, true.  I was only thinking about the missiles because of the 9%/10% thing, since that's been the focus of the low% efforts in ZM.
君だけの
光になると
hey, thanks for working on this stuff. i know that we should be doing it, but we're lazy, so your dedication is appreciated. actually, saber was working on this article, but it looks like that either needs to be merged with [[speedrun]] or just seriously fixed, lol. anyway, you'll see that i made some minor additions and corrections to [[speedrun]] today because chanoire was talking about it (before i even saw this thread), so hopefully those are acceptable. if they aren't, of course, you can fix them as you see fit as you seem to know your way around wikipedia better than me.
All I have to say is that the article is awesome.

I beleive you should document all the world records for Super. I'm not sure what they are, though... silly me.
Erm, that's what SDA is for.
awesome. I didn't know that there was a glitch in Zelda ALTTP that allows you to end the game in 03:48...
Very impressive.
Quote from Arkarian:
Go here and then to "Secret Worlds" for more.

Thanks. I'll read that through and see if I can include some of it.

Quote from Random Zelda Person:
There are thirteen items that must be gotten for a low% run, no matter what. In addition, one must have either the ice beam or the speed booster, which brings the total to 14, but in two different ways.

Ah, I didn't know that. I'm not sure if it's really worth going into that much detail, though. Maybe the wording can be changed accordingly to make sure this is conveyed somehow.

Quote from nate:
hey, thanks for working on this stuff. i know that we should be doing it, but we're lazy, so your dedication is appreciated. actually, saber was working on this article, but it looks like that either needs to be merged with [[speedrun]] or just seriously fixed, lol. anyway, you'll see that i made some minor additions and corrections to [[speedrun]] today because chanoire was talking about it (before i even saw this thread), so hopefully those are acceptable. if they aren't, of course, you can fix them as you see fit as you seem to know your way around wikipedia better than me.

Hey, no problem. Thanks to you for helping out occasionally. And yeah, I did find my way towards the sequence breaking article. I took some information from it and added it in the speedrun article, but haven't linked to that article because of how small (and somewhat broken) it is. I do intend to fix it up a little and then link to it so that at least the basic speedrun terms are documented in their own articles. They don't need to be that large, as long as they're concise (like the re-recording article, for example).

If you ever have something to add to the speedrun article, but don't want to figure out exactly where to put it or how to word it, feel free to just dump it all into the talk page. The Metroid section of that article was also dumped in there in a pretty basic form, as I remember it, which I then rewrote using the information from the history topics on this forum. They were pretty useful. Although I kind of omitted that part about the killed IRC server... :?

EDIT: just to make sure I don't get lost:
  • Super Metroid 100% is more popular than any%; change wording accordingly
  • (DONE) Add low% to someplace else besides just the Metroid paragraph
  • Change wording to note that the Ice Beam is not necessary for 14% completion; the Speed Booster may be used to get past the first Zebetite as well
  • (DONE) Christina is not a he
  • Add information about "Secret Worlds"
  • Add information about Zero Mission
twenty eight fifty
i've always felt that 100% was more popular than any% when it came to metroid speed runs, though it could just be my inferiority complex speaking. i am definitely sure that scarlet's :55 in super metroid is more popular than sparky's :36.
I added the low% bit on my own; I didn't even see that it was part of a to-do list. It felt necessary, you know? Low%s are definitely applicable to more than Metroid, SM64, for one.
君だけの
光になると
Quote from Msikma:
The Metroid section of that article was also dumped in there in a pretty basic form, as I remember it, which I then rewrote using the information from the history topics on this forum. They were pretty useful. Although I kind of omitted that part about the killed IRC server... :?

lol, yes, that's pretty irrelevant from a wikipedia perspective. if people want to read about more m2k2-centric stuff like that, then they can read the history blocks.

Quote from transience:
i've always felt that 100% was more popular than any% when it came to metroid speed runs, though it could just be my inferiority complex speaking. i am definitely sure that scarlet's :55 in super metroid is more popular than sparky's :36.

i think poor sleep-deprived transience here meant smokey by "sparky".
twenty eight fifty
shut up, i actually slept eight hours last night!

but yeah, nathan comes to my aid.
red chamber dream
Quote from nate:
i think poor sleep-deprived transience here meant smokey by "sparky".

Further proving his point that it must not be very popular. :P

From what I've seen, 100% is only more popular in Super (though, I don't know why, as any% should be more popular in every game - it's the fastest run possible and is the ultimate in speed running as far as I am concerned).
君だけの
光になると
scarlet got here first i think.
Key there being "as far as you're concerned."  I prefer the idea of 100%, thinking of it as being actual completion of the game rather than just going through it, and I find the route planning more interesting; also, since I pretty much can't help but try to get everything as a player it's interesting to me to watch a run with a similar goal.  Low% has another interesting vibe as being more ultimately the player vs the game and an exercise in sheer survival. 

I suppose they're all optimization problems, but I see SM as being a puzzle to solve (the route), any% as being optimization since there's only one priority, and low% as being endurance and technique to deal with the lack of equipment.  That's just me as an outsider, an audience member, though.
I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)
Oh, it updated from last night with more stuff! Looks really good and informative.  Really well written.  I like it.

Funny thing with Saber's article (aside from "inaccurate" being spelled incorrectly, which Chanoire noticed) is the thing saying the information is inaccurate, stating that Sequence Breaking was termed in the SM days, providing a link to Super Metroid faqs at gamefaqs, except the link goes to Zero Mission faqs, and there are no guides on the Super Metroid gamefaqs page that say "sequence breaking" in any of the guide titles.  laugh new