Souls Multithread

2018-03-02 02:15:34 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I know this means literally nothing but I actually landed a parry against an invader for the first time in Souls PVP history and it kind of owned a lot. Also it was in DS2 of all games so I'm just sort of laughing a lot?

Also DS2 has the best healing system in any Souls or Souls-inspired game. Lifegems are good.

Serris

2018-03-02 03:39:22 am

How can Lifegems be good if they weren't in DS1? This makes no sense.

Serris

2018-03-02 03:42:15 am

The Surge actually has some of the best Souls ideas regarding healing (and leveling) systems

Hopefully someone working on Soulslikes actually played it so they can learn from it

Da Dood

2018-03-02 05:29:58 am

Dood Trigger™

Thanks for the tips!

Quote from tomatobob:

Also DS2 has the best healing system in any Souls or Souls-inspired game. Lifegems are good.

Yuuuuck. Press button, wait literally forever to heal. Not you, tbob!

Serris

2018-03-02 05:50:04 am

Well yeah, they're designed for sustain, not as emergency heals during combat. That's Estus.

Da Dood

2018-03-02 05:58:27 am

Dood Trigger™

Except of course Estus healing is slow as hell too >_> Chuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuug

ryu

2018-03-02 06:26:53 am

Nioh sounds a lot like an arcade beat'em up to me

Serris

2018-03-02 06:30:56 am

Are you sure what you heard was about Nioh?

Da Dood

2018-03-02 06:49:50 am

Dood Trigger™

Quote from ryu:

Nioh sounds a lot like an arcade beat'em up to me

It's like a 3D Ninja Gaiden/Souls hybrid. So far anyway

tomatobob

2018-03-02 07:04:43 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Da Dood:

Yuuuuck. Press button, wait literally forever to heal. Not you, tbob!

Healing in DS2 is a tactical choice you have to make, it's good as hell! Your big, fast heal is slow to use and sticks you in place for a bit, your other heal is a heal over time but it's quicker and you can move around enough to keep just out of range of oncoming attacks if you're spacing properly. Slipping a Ruin Sentinel's swing while popping a gem rules. Also they are really good at countering poison, even toxic, whereas estus is kinda rubbish at it! Just in my last play session I used a couple gems to just negate that invader's poison gimmick build, and powered through a toxic from a rat with like four gems, it was fun.

DS2 is the only Souls game where using not using a 100% phys block shield or just not using a shield for the most part actually feels ok because life gems are there to deal with chip damage or a missed roll so you don't have to waste a more potent heal to keep HP topped up. It encourages one to play around with dual wielding since you have the extra sustain to make learning how to play that style pretty painless. The last couple runs I did before DS3 came out were dual wield builds, this one is a sorcery build that's almost exclusively off-handing the staff. Which I could never bring myself to do in DS1 and messed with a bit but never got a good feel for in DS3. I like 3's regen builds a bunch but the amount of time they take to get going doesn't encourage experimentation like Lifegems do. Lifegems: Get you some!

[quote="Da Dood"]Yuuuuck. Press button, wait [i]literally forever[/i] to heal. Not you, tbob![/quote]
Healing in DS2 is a tactical choice you have to make, it's good as hell! Your big, fast heal is slow to use and sticks you in place for a bit, your other heal is a heal over time but it's quicker and you can move around enough to keep just out of range of oncoming attacks if you're spacing properly. Slipping a Ruin Sentinel's swing while popping a gem rules. Also they are really good at countering poison, even toxic, whereas estus is kinda rubbish at it! Just in my last play session I used a couple gems to just negate that invader's poison gimmick build, and powered through a toxic from a rat with like four gems, it was fun.

DS2 is the only Souls game where using not using a 100% phys block shield or just not using a shield for the most part actually feels ok because life gems are there to deal with chip damage or a missed roll so you don't have to waste a more potent heal to keep HP topped up. It encourages one to play around with dual wielding since you have the extra sustain to make learning how to play that style pretty painless. The last couple runs I did before DS3 came out were dual wield builds, this one is a sorcery build that's almost exclusively off-handing the staff. Which I could never bring myself to do in DS1 and messed with a bit but never got a good feel for in DS3. I like 3's regen builds a bunch but the amount of time they take to get going doesn't encourage experimentation like Lifegems do. Lifegems: Get you some!

tomatobob

2018-03-02 07:17:23 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I know people hate DS2's stamina management and slow estus and all that and I totally understand but, you guys, that is all extremely my shit! Slowing things down, picking your spots, pacing yourself, gettin tactical up in here and I am all about it.

It a weird thing where I like DS2 more than most people seemed to, but also really don't like the part of Ds2 everyone else loved, Fume Knight, because that fight seems to want you to be fast in a game that isn't about that in general. Which is a problem shred by a few DLC bosses, really but I guess Fume gets a pass because he's not one of those stupid cats from the Ivory King. The DLC has, like, all of the stuff I don't like, actually lol.

Da Dood

2018-03-02 09:58:47 am

Dood Trigger™

I see what you mean. I don't argue that DS2's health/stam management isn't tactical, though. It's just unnecessary. The gameplay was plenty challenging and rewarding before. I feel like DS2's mission is to catch veterans off guard constantly and claim the HARDCORE™ label that everyone keeps throwing at the series. But who really cares about that? I just want my guy to be fun to control and a crazy world to explore.

The problem with DS2 IMO is in the little things... all the tweaks they made to balance PvP and prevent "abuse" just snowball and make the game less interesting to experiment with. Stuff like classic items getting nerfed, slow healing/animations, i-frames tied to a stat, rings and estus being broken into tiny increments. To me it's no surprise that Bloodborne went for a faster approach in pretty much every aspect of the gameplay.

I also think DS2 is an excellent game, easily a 9/10, so I don't agree with the notion that it ruined Souls or whatever. I like the world and how many options you have to advance the game (4 giant souls, ascetics, 1m regular souls). Soul Vessel was another great addition. It's okay for a really amazing game to have flaws, not everything has to be perfection. I can think of about 410 ways I'd improve DS1 and that game is in my top 5 of all time.

As always though, if something I dislike clicked with you, that's awesome. I was just messing with you there. It's pretty common that someone hypes up something I dislike in a game and I give it another chance and end up seeing something I didn't before. So yeah <3

I see what you mean. I don't argue that DS2's health/stam management isn't tactical, though. It's just unnecessary. The gameplay was plenty challenging and rewarding before. I feel like DS2's mission is to catch veterans off guard constantly and claim the HARDCORE™ label that everyone keeps throwing at the series. But who really cares about that? I just want my guy to be fun to control and a crazy world to explore.

The problem with DS2 IMO is in the little things... all the tweaks they made to balance PvP and prevent "abuse" just snowball and make the game less interesting to experiment with. Stuff like classic items getting nerfed, slow healing/animations, i-frames tied to a stat, rings and estus being broken into tiny increments. To me it's no surprise that Bloodborne went for a faster approach in pretty much every aspect of the gameplay.

I also think DS2 is an excellent game, easily a 9/10, so I don't agree with the notion that it ruined Souls or whatever. I like the world and how many options you have to advance the game (4 giant souls, ascetics, 1m regular souls). Soul Vessel was another great addition. It's okay for a really amazing game to have flaws, not everything has to be perfection. I can think of about 410 ways I'd improve DS1 and that game is in my top 5 of all time.

As always though, if something I dislike clicked with you, that's awesome. I was just messing with you there. It's pretty common that someone hypes up something I dislike in a game and I give it another chance and end up seeing something I didn't before. So yeah <3

tomatobob

2018-03-02 05:39:29 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Da Dood:

I was just messing with you there. It's pretty common that someone hypes up something I dislike in a game and I give it another chance and end up seeing something I didn't before. So yeah <3

Oh yeah, no I was gonna end up posting about how fucking good lifegems are, anyway lol. I was playing it yesterday and hootin' constantly about how good healing is in DS2.

Quote from Da Dood:

I feel like DS2's mission is to catch veterans off guard constantly and claim the HARDCORE™ label that everyone keeps throwing at the series.

See, to me, the trying catch you off guard thing is good. It's a sequel to a game people played to hell and back you're going to have to make an effort to surprise them again.

I see a lot of people complain about DS3 leaning too hard on DS1, and while that didn't bother me much (DS1 but with less shitty zones is good!), I get why it would be a bit off putting. They could just play DS1 again if they wanted more of it. But I also disliked enough areas in DS1 that a version of that game that doesn't do Tomb of Giants et al is infinitely better. DS2 avoids all that by seeming to just do its own thing. It for sure doesn't always work: Frozen Outskirts, Darkstalker Covenent, why is adaptability a thing?, oops broke an egg now the bridge'll fall. But more of it landed for me than it did for, I guess, most people. Which is fine, Dark Souls has never been about appealing to everybody.

[quote="Da Dood"]I was just messing with you there. It's pretty common that someone hypes up something I dislike in a game and I give it another chance and end up seeing something I didn't before. So yeah <3 [/quote]
Oh yeah, no I was gonna end up posting about how fucking good lifegems are, anyway lol. I was playing it yesterday and hootin' constantly about how good healing is in DS2.

[quote="Da Dood"]I feel like DS2's mission is to catch veterans off guard constantly and claim the HARDCORE™ label that everyone keeps throwing at the series.[/quote]
See, to me, the trying catch you off guard thing is good. It's a sequel to a game people played to hell and back you're going to have to make an effort to surprise them again.

I see a lot of people complain about DS3 leaning too hard on DS1, and while that didn't bother me much (DS1 but with less shitty zones is good!), I get why it would be a bit off putting. They could just play DS1 again if they wanted more of it. But I also disliked enough areas in DS1 that a version of that game that doesn't do Tomb of Giants et al is infinitely better. DS2 avoids all that by seeming to just do its own thing. It for sure doesn't always work: Frozen Outskirts, Darkstalker Covenent, why is adaptability a thing?, oops broke an egg now the bridge'll fall. But more of it landed for me than it did for, I guess, most people. Which is fine, Dark Souls has never been about appealing to everybody.

Da Dood

2018-03-03 08:21:30 am

Dood Trigger™

Man, the level design in Nioh is so dull... I'm enjoying the boss fights and the combat, but damn. Been running past a lot of enemies just to get to the end.

Nue was a cool fight.

Serris

2018-03-03 08:34:28 am

Well The Surge has great level design and dull combat, so just play that afterwards for a balanced diet!

Also brace for a barrage of samey humanoid boss fights after the first map. If you thought DS2 had a just-circlestrafe-the-dude-boss problem like many people seem to, you'll get some newfound appreciation for DS2's boss variety.

ryu

2018-03-03 09:13:36 am

Quote from Da Dood:

Quote from ryu:

Nioh sounds a lot like an arcade beat'em up to me

It's like a 3D Ninja Gaiden/Souls hybrid. So far anyway

Isn't 3D Ninja Gaiden basically an Arcade Beat'em up?

Serris

2018-03-03 09:14:58 am

It's more like an unholy marriage between Souls and Diablo that was never meant to be

Da Dood

2018-03-03 09:24:40 am

Dood Trigger™

Quote from Serris:

Also brace for a barrage of samey humanoid boss fights after the first map.

Great :\

Da Dood

2018-03-04 06:01:15 am

Dood Trigger™

Was about to scream terrible things at the game 'cause the blob boss was taking zero damage from my attacks... then I noticed the giant torches. Just wish it didn't take 10 long attempts for me to realize that. Haha.

I also enjoyed Not Quelaag, Not Gigapede, Nue and the samurai dude. Pretty much all bosses were interesting so far. I like that they have weak points/out-of-Ki stuns.

Sadly, the levels were super dull. Easily my least favorite part(s) of the game. At least I'm finding sort of a rhythm to them, I guess... running around to find the way forward, not caring too much about missing stuff. Hopefully this will make the game flow a little better.

Serris

2018-03-04 08:14:37 am

I've done that centipede on every difficulty (of which there's now 5 because every DLC added another one because that's their definition of new content) and with no damage taken and whatever other challenge thingies there were to complete, and I still have no idea how you're meant to fight it. I can only conclude that it's the most broken and unfinished garbage boss I've seen in a while.

Serris

2018-03-04 08:17:06 am

Also what sort of weapons do you gravitate towards the most? That's like the biggest deciding factor in how your combat experience plays out.

Da Dood

2018-03-04 09:13:03 am

Dood Trigger™

How I fought the centipede: block as it charges towards you, then run to its rear parts and hit one of them like 3-4 times. Destroy the mini corpse to get rid of the poison.
Then when it's me vs. smallerpede, I can block almost every single attack and counter with belly/mouth hits (seem to do way more damage). The only attack I couldn't block was the body slam, but that move is telegraphed and easy to punish. All the projectiles are blockable with not much ki loss as far as I can tell.

Not sure if that's how you're meant to fight it, but I was okay with that method.

I'm using the sword 'cause that's what I'm used to in Ninja Gaiden games. Feels pretty familiar. I'm interested in trying other weapons, though. What do you use?

Serris

Edit history:

Serris: 2018-03-04 06:36:17 pm

2018-03-04 06:33:12 pm

I've pretty much only used Kusarigama after my initial playthrough because the AI can't deal with Blade Spin and fighting things legit got boring 5 hours in, combined with Reaper for raw DPS it's all you ever need. It used to do double the damage but it's still great for the move itself.

I'd also recommend staying away from magic and ninjutsu buffs until NG+ if you want to have some semblance of a satisfying combat experience

Luckily I couldn't be bothered looking through skill trees until I beat the game

You can stack a bunch of stupid powerful status effects like 5 minutes into the game that allow you to kill any boss in seconds ... and that's after like two nerfs

Just mentioning it in case you actually want some bosses to be over that fast, which would be very understandable

Da Dood

2018-03-04 08:49:43 pm

Dood Trigger™

Quote from Serris:

You can stack a bunch of stupid powerful status effects like 5 minutes into the game that allow you to kill any boss in seconds ... and that's after like two nerfs

Just mentioning it in case you actually want some bosses to be over that fast, which would be very understandable

Very interested in this. How does it work?

Serris

2018-03-04 09:21:19 pm

There's actually multiple ways to achieve cheese that can actually stack, but due to the limited durations and time it takes to apply these debuffs you'll generally pick only pick one of them in practice. After NG you're honestly probably expected to play this way considering how ridiculous enemy scaling gets (and also because the combat isn't very interesting), which is why the game turns into more of an RPG and less of an action game the higher you get in difficulty. Expect a lot of farming and minmaxing rerolling stats on gear in the NG++ regions.

The main thing is that there's loads of similar buffs and debuffs that may stack or may overwrite each other, so when you try to figure things out yourself it's just a lot of fiddling around

1. The most basic way is to put Weakness Talisman on the boss and Carnage Talisman on yourself. You can combine that with an elemental weapon buff and the Sloth Talisman on the boss which slows his movements to a crawl. You can also overwrite the debuff part of the Carnage Talisman (which gives you more damage for less defense) while keeping the buff by using a Steel Talisman afterwards, because the defense buff overwrites the defense debuff, although taking damage isn't really a huge concern when you use these tactics, so it can just waste time on your buff durations. Combine this with the attack output of things like the Kusarigama's Reaper skill + backstab damage bonus and things just fall over.

2. Another pretty basic way is to apply two elemental debuffs on the boss at the same time, simply achieved through using an elemental weapon buff until the boss is debuffed and then switching to another elemental weapon buff. The second an enemy is affected by two elemental debuffs at the same time he enters the Discord state, which works independently from the elemental debuffs, so even if your elemental debuffs only overlapped for a second and then fell off you get the full Discord. This is an extended exhaustion state that lasts for like, 10+ seconds? where the boss gets reduced to zero stamina and poise and is unable to regenerate any, making him flinch from any attack, unable to do anything and with severely reduced defense. Using elemental ranged shots from the Onmyo tree also works for elemental debuffing. But the easiest way to apply one of the debuffs is ...

3. Living Weapons, which are an entire thing you can build around onto themselves. Also got severely nerfed and is still ridiculously strong. The talisman that summons your spirit (forgot the name) instantly debuffs an enemy for many of the spirits (by the way, the basic Kato spirit is one of the best in the game in general). While in Living Weapon, getting Amrita extends the gauge, so if you buff yourself with things like +Amrita gain and "gain Amrita whenever you hit an enemy" you can extend it significantly. Used to be basically infinite but they now kick you out after a set time. Using midsized or higher Amrita crystals (the soul items that give you Amrita) can also instantly refill your activation gauge the moment you leave Living Weapon.

There's actually multiple ways to achieve cheese that can actually stack, but due to the limited durations and time it takes to apply these debuffs you'll generally pick only pick one of them in practice. After NG you're honestly probably expected to play this way considering how ridiculous enemy scaling gets (and also because the combat isn't very interesting), which is why the game turns into more of an RPG and less of an action game the higher you get in difficulty. Expect a lot of farming and minmaxing rerolling stats on gear in the NG++ regions.

The main thing is that there's loads of similar buffs and debuffs that may stack or may overwrite each other, so when you try to figure things out yourself it's just a lot of fiddling around

1. The most basic way is to put Weakness Talisman on the boss and Carnage Talisman on yourself. You can combine that with an elemental weapon buff and the Sloth Talisman on the boss which slows his movements to a crawl. You can also overwrite the debuff part of the Carnage Talisman (which gives you more damage for less defense) while keeping the buff by using a Steel Talisman afterwards, because the defense buff overwrites the defense debuff, although taking damage isn't really a huge concern when you use these tactics, so it can just waste time on your buff durations. Combine this with the attack output of things like the Kusarigama's Reaper skill + backstab damage bonus and things just fall over.

2. Another pretty basic way is to apply two elemental debuffs on the boss at the same time, simply achieved through using an elemental weapon buff until the boss is debuffed and then switching to another elemental weapon buff. The second an enemy is affected by two elemental debuffs at the same time he enters the Discord state, which works independently from the elemental debuffs, so even if your elemental debuffs only overlapped for a second and then fell off you get the full Discord. This is an extended exhaustion state that lasts for like, 10+ seconds? where the boss gets reduced to zero stamina and poise and is unable to regenerate any, making him flinch from any attack, unable to do anything and with severely reduced defense. Using elemental ranged shots from the Onmyo tree also works for elemental debuffing. But the easiest way to apply one of the debuffs is ...

3. Living Weapons, which are an entire thing you can build around onto themselves. Also got severely nerfed and is still ridiculously strong. The talisman that summons your spirit (forgot the name) instantly debuffs an enemy for many of the spirits (by the way, the basic Kato spirit is one of the best in the game in general). While in Living Weapon, getting Amrita extends the gauge, so if you buff yourself with things like +Amrita gain and "gain Amrita whenever you hit an enemy" you can extend it significantly. Used to be basically infinite but they now kick you out after a set time. Using midsized or higher Amrita crystals (the soul items that give you Amrita) can also instantly refill your activation gauge the moment you leave Living Weapon.