general gaming topic

tomatobob

2018-06-14 12:02:40 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Serris:

The character didn't mean anything to most people beyond "badass woman who shoots things"

See here's the thing

That's literally all that matters.

tomatobob

Edit history:

tomatobob: 2018-06-14 12:08:34 am

2018-06-14 12:08:15 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

You may want to flesh out a character more. But your starting point is well established. You cannot flip 180 on what people Know that character to be. That character is no long wholly yours and you do that character wrong by trying to reclaim them and making them someone else. People remember that old magazine or players guide scan that listed Samus as like 6 foot 3 and made of back the fuck off. Making her a five foot tall actual baby is not going to make people find her more interesting.

tomatobob

2018-06-14 12:11:47 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

And the most fucked part is that the hero of Other M was Adam, the guy everyone already hated because Fusion came out first. The entire effort to flesh out Samus was by making Adam actual Jesus.

No part of Other M was good.

Serris

2018-06-14 12:11:59 am

Not if that was never how the character was conceived in the first place

Samus is based on Ripley so I highly doubt she was just supposed to be a female Contra dude

Obviously there were limits to characterization beyond caring about the Newt larva

I don't care if people had their own headcanon, your head-Samus and new Samus can happily coexist

You had a bunch of games with silent robot Samus, if you don't like the new direction just ignore the story lol

Serris

2018-06-14 12:14:17 am

Why did you hate Adam after Fusion? lol

tomatobob

2018-06-14 12:37:57 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

He never shut the fuck up.

Quote from Serris:

Not if that was never how the character was conceived in the first place

This extremely doesn't matter. Once the character is put out there your original conception means nothing and it only means less as time passes and that character features in more stories that apparently don't really fit your original idea. The entire reason nerds got mad about Han Solo not shooting Greedo first in the Star Wars re-release was that it felt entirely different from the sort of person they knew Han to be regardless of whether George Lucas thought it was more correct for how he intended the character.

It the same reason why Vince Gilligan specifically avoids confirming or denying people's theories when asked about the end of Breaking Bad. He has his version of the ending in his head, he'll admit that much, but he doesn't talk about it because it doesn't matter anymore. Your version is the important one.

I mean, shit, even what little character stuff Samus had in Zero Mission was at odds with Other M, she had her shit together to the point that she just charged on into a space pirate ship when her only weapon was entirely useless and not once did she start crying. So even if we're allowing that the original intent of Samus was the Other M version, and also that that intent matters, they fucked up every opportunity to get people eased into the concept.

Quote from Serris:

You had a bunch of games with silent robot Samus, if you don't like the new direction just ignore the story lol

The story of Other M was considered so vital to the game that they literally included a movie of all the cutscenes edited together lol. The story was Other M. You can ignore Other M on the whole if you want but that doesn't mean you didn't suffer through that trash or that it wasn't still trash.

He never shut the fuck up.

[quote="Serris"]Not if that was never how the character was conceived in the first place[/quote]
This extremely doesn't matter. Once the character is put out there your original conception means nothing and it only means less as time passes and that character features in more stories that apparently don't really fit your original idea. The entire reason nerds got mad about Han Solo not shooting Greedo first in the Star Wars re-release was that it felt entirely different from the sort of person they knew Han to be regardless of whether George Lucas thought it was more correct for how he intended the character.

It the same reason why Vince Gilligan specifically avoids confirming or denying people's theories when asked about the end of Breaking Bad. He has his version of the ending in his head, he'll admit that much, but he doesn't talk about it because it doesn't matter anymore. Your version is the important one.

I mean, shit, even what little character stuff Samus had in Zero Mission was at odds with Other M, she had her shit together to the point that she just charged on into a space pirate ship when her only weapon was entirely useless and not once did she start crying. So even if we're allowing that the original intent of Samus was the Other M version, and also that that intent matters, they fucked up every opportunity to get people eased into the concept.

[quote="Serris"]You had a bunch of games with silent robot Samus, if you don't like the new direction just ignore the story lol[/quote]
The story of Other M was considered so vital to the game that they literally included a movie of all the cutscenes edited together lol.  The story [i]was[/i] Other M. You can ignore Other M on the whole if you want but that doesn't mean you didn't suffer through that trash or that it wasn't still trash.

tomatobob

2018-06-14 12:50:40 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I guess more succinctly, if you knock a glass off the table it either did or did not break and you still have to deal with that regardless of whether you meant for it to break or not.

Serris

2018-06-14 07:50:51 am

I can totally divorce Adam as a character from his role in gameplay, though I understand if the latter is all people remember

From what I remember from like 15 years ago when I actually cared, there exists plenty of writing by Makoto Kanoh on the story and concept of Metroid, which has little to do with whatever some NoA dude pulled out of his ass for the western release manuals (which is why your comparisons don't work). It was hard to find and also mostly untranslated, so the whole thing was pretty impenetrable for me back then.

George Lucas can barely be credited for creating Star Wars, and all his changes just show how little he was probably involved in the writing of the characters. When it comes to reinventing Samus, there wasn't much there to ruin in the first place. The most common image of Samus came to be from just having no information and judging her by what you do in the games. That's fine and all, but I'm totally on board with doing something else. Like, we had that Samus for years. If your favorite Samus is based on ignoring everything the creators intended, then just continue to ignore it.

I can totally divorce Adam as a character from his role in gameplay, though I understand if the latter is all people remember

From what I remember from like 15 years ago when I actually cared, there exists plenty of writing by Makoto Kanoh on the story and concept of Metroid, which has little to do with whatever some NoA dude pulled out of his ass for the western release manuals (which is why your comparisons don't work). It was hard to find and also mostly untranslated, so the whole thing was pretty impenetrable for me back then.

George Lucas can barely be credited for creating Star Wars, and all his changes just show how little he was probably involved in the writing of the characters. When it comes to reinventing Samus, there wasn't much there to ruin in the first place. The most common image of Samus came to be from just having no information and judging her by what you do in the games. That's fine and all, but I'm totally on board with doing something else. Like, we had that Samus for years. If your favorite Samus is based on ignoring everything the creators intended, then just continue to ignore it.

tomatobob

2018-06-14 04:20:49 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Serris:

From what I remember from like 15 years ago when I actually cared, there exists plenty of writing by Makoto Kanoh on the story and concept of Metroid, which has little to do with whatever some NoA dude pulled out of his ass for the western release manuals (which is why your comparisons don't work). It was hard to find and also mostly untranslated, so the whole thing was pretty impenetrable for me back then.

Yeah, the fact that concept stuff basically might as well not exist makes it matter even less than it already did. Media changes after it's released into the wild that's just something a creator has to accept.

Quote from Serris:

George Lucas can barely be credited for creating Star Wars, and all his changes just show how little he was probably involved in the writing of the characters.

The differnce is that in the early days people cold tell him no, later that changed and things god weird. The point is a person closely tied to a character can entirely misunderstand what makes that character good and reimagine them in their image which actually sucks when in a position where no one gets to check their dumb ideas and the result tends to be bad.

Another noted example is George Takei being against Sulu being gay in the Star Trek reboots on the basis that the character already existed for years, even though he appreciated the gesture. Expanding on a character and just making things up whole cloth are separated by a very fine line but they are different. You start from what's already there, even if there's very little, if that very little is in opposition to what you want you throw your shit out the window. If you want a new character, make a new character.

Princess Peach had a crying mechanic or whatever in her game, make her the new protagonist of Metroid if you want your space lady crying all the time.

[quote="Serris"]From what I remember from like 15 years ago when I actually cared, there exists plenty of writing by Makoto Kanoh on the story and concept of Metroid, which has little to do with whatever some NoA dude pulled out of his ass for the western release manuals (which is why your comparisons don't work). It was hard to find and also mostly untranslated, so the whole thing was pretty impenetrable for me back then.[/quote]
Yeah, the fact that concept stuff basically might as well not exist makes it matter even less than it already did. Media changes after it's released into the wild that's just something a creator has to accept.

[quote="Serris"]George Lucas can barely be credited for creating Star Wars, and all his changes just show how little he was probably involved in the writing of the characters.[/quote]
The differnce is that in the early days people cold tell him no, later that changed and things god weird. The point is a person closely tied to a character can entirely misunderstand what makes that character good and reimagine them in their image which actually sucks when in a position where no one gets to check their dumb ideas and the result tends to be bad.

Another noted example is George Takei being against Sulu being gay in the Star Trek reboots on the basis that the character already existed for years, even though he appreciated the gesture. Expanding on a character and just making things up whole cloth are separated by a very fine line but they [i]are[/i] different. You start from what's already there, even if there's very little, if that very little is in opposition to what you want you throw your shit out the window. If you want a new character, make a new character.

Princess Peach had a crying mechanic or whatever in her game, make her the new protagonist of Metroid if you want your space lady crying all the time.

Serris

2018-06-14 05:50:49 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

Princess Peach had a crying mechanic or whatever in her game, make her the new protagonist of Metroid if you want your space lady crying all the time.

You can do better than that dude

tomatobob

2018-06-14 06:31:33 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Nah, I ain't get paid for this shit.

arkarian

2018-06-14 06:45:12 pm

red chamber dream

man i always wanted to play super princess peach, but it's so expensive now ;(

Turtle

Edit history:

Turtle: 2018-06-14 06:59:31 pm

2018-06-14 06:59:08 pm

I like turtles.

I feel like something that often gets missed is the fallacy that fleshing out Samus must necessarily mean running directly contrary to previous games' portrayals of her. That's not how it need work when expanding on any character. It could have, had been, and has since been done better. "Emotionless robot" and "PTSD cripple" are not the only two options.

She also wasn't just the former even before, and I know I've said something to similar effect in past discussions, but she does display actual human traits several times in pre-Other M games. Gettin' salty about Ridley being alive in MP1, closing the dead marine's eyes in MP2, shock and sadness at the fates of the other hunters in MP3... that one small incident where she spared the life of the last Metroid (against orders, tellingly)... and even if you count none of those, basically all of Fusion did what Other M was trying to do while still showing us a Samus that jived with previous installments'.

arkarian

2018-06-14 07:00:57 pm

red chamber dream

still doesn't excuse other m.

Turtle

2018-06-14 07:02:39 pm

I like turtles.

That's basically what I just argued...?

Serris

2018-06-14 07:27:50 pm

I've never seen anyone arguing that

tomatobob

2018-06-14 08:04:04 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

The best thing about Other M is that it is literally Metroid Fusion but worse in every possible way.

Other M is what everyone who was complaining about Fusion back in the day thought Fusion was. It owns.

Glenn Magus Harvey

2018-06-14 09:44:31 pm

Quote from Opium:

Hope they didn't forget to wash all the bubonic plague off of their hands. yuk!

When I was a kid we used to trap and shoot armadillos because they dug up our vegetables. They're cute but also disease ridden. We'd be careful never to touch them.

...well, yeah, I guess Samus probably DOES need to clean her suit after her adventures.

Quote from Serris:

Finally! A Ridley amiibo for my desk!

What even happened to "Ridley is too damn big" anyway? He's not anymore?

Opium

2018-06-15 12:42:52 am

Quote from arkarian:

man i always wanted to play super princess peach, but it's so expensive now ;(

Really?! I traded my copy in a long time ago. This is why nobody should ever trade in anything. Unless it's Other M.

arkarian

2018-06-15 09:20:31 am

red chamber dream

agreed. i've never traded in or sold a single game

Serris

2018-06-15 09:58:38 am

Do people not like SPP or something? It's a very Kirby-esque fun little game. I guess if you expected Mario it's not really that

arkarian

2018-06-15 10:03:43 am

red chamber dream

nah it got good reviews, people just whined that it's all about peach's emotions or whatever

Serris

2018-06-15 10:11:09 am

It's a pretty realistic portrayal of someone who sits in a giant castle all day while a personal army of slaves does everything

Glenn Magus Harvey

Edit history:

Glenn Magus Harvey: 2018-06-18 03:59:05 am

2018-06-18 03:54:40 am

Quote from Serris:

The character didn't mean anything to most people beyond "badass woman who shoots things"

To be fair, it wasn't just this, there was also "badass woman who shoots things and explores alien worlds", and alternatively "badass woman who shoots things and kills aliens dead in record time" though tbf that's more for speedrunning than story-based play.

But seriously, you can look at something like Prime and take from that an interest in recording information about curious alien worlds.

Also "badass woman who shoots things and has a mysterious past involving anthropomorphic birds" so they could have gone a different angle with regards developing her backstory.

Also there were at least a couple Metroid manga series. I think they may have contradicted Other M at some point.

Honestly, there are ways to flesh out Samus's characterization that can involve going against canon but that also don't feel unenjoyable. Heck, one could even try fleshing out the Metroid 1 backstory, with the mysterious male bounty hunter named Samus Aran with no other personal details on file, rising to the occasion after the Federation tries and fails repeatedly to take down the space pirate base on Zebes.

Quote from tomatobob:

And the most fucked part is that the hero of Other M was Adam, the guy everyone already hated because Fusion came out first. The entire effort to flesh out Samus was by making Adam actual Jesus.

And ironically, Adam was actually not that bad in Fusion, aside from being blamed for the linearity of the game and perhaps wording too much, and if you're like me and enjoyed the story in Fusion, then yeah. I'm more wondering how they took a vaguely interesting character who was basically just hinted at in one game, and then made a big flop out of it.

Quote from Turtle:

basically all of Fusion did what Other M was trying to do while still showing us a Samus that jived with previous installments'.

This.

Simply put, Fusion's story was satisfying, while Other M's wasn't.

[quote="Serris"]The character didn't mean anything to most people beyond "badass woman who shoots things"[/quote]To be fair, it wasn't just this, there was also "badass woman who shoots things and explores alien worlds", and alternatively "badass woman who shoots things and kills aliens dead in record time" though tbf that's more for speedrunning than story-based play.

But seriously, you can look at something like Prime and take from that an interest in recording information about curious alien worlds.

Also "badass woman who shoots things and has a mysterious past involving anthropomorphic birds" so they could have gone a different angle with regards developing her backstory.

Also there were at least a couple Metroid manga series.  I think they may have contradicted Other M at some point.

Honestly, there are ways to flesh out Samus's characterization that can involve going against canon but that also don't feel unenjoyable.  Heck, one could even try fleshing out the Metroid 1 backstory, with the mysterious male bounty hunter named Samus Aran with no other personal details on file, rising to the occasion after the Federation tries and fails repeatedly to take down the space pirate base on Zebes.

[quote="tomatobob"]And the most fucked part is that the hero of Other M was Adam, the guy everyone already hated because Fusion came out first. The entire effort to flesh out Samus was by making Adam actual Jesus. [/quote]And ironically, Adam was actually not that bad in Fusion, aside from being blamed for the linearity of the game and perhaps wording too much, and if you're like me and enjoyed the story in Fusion, then yeah.  I'm more wondering how they took a vaguely interesting character who was basically just hinted at in one game, and then made a big flop out of it.

[quote="Turtle"]basically all of [i]Fusion[/i] did what [i]Other M[/i] was trying to do while still showing us a Samus that jived with previous installments'.[/quote]This.

Simply put, Fusion's story was satisfying, while Other M's wasn't.

tomatobob

2018-06-18 05:36:38 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Glenn Magus Harvey:

I'm more wondering how they took a vaguely interesting character who was basically just hinted at in one game, and then made a big flop out of it.

How they did it is they made a story heavy game but forgot to hire a writer. :v