Discussing the rules

2005-02-24 07:00:03 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

I think there should be something in regarding Nate's newest policy: no use of the word "gay" besides what it is defined as.

Strongly seconded.

Toozin

2005-02-25 12:13:56 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Nate's newest policy is a gay homosexual that likes having sex with other gay policys that are gay like his.

nate

2005-02-25 12:56:04 am

*policies

Izo

2005-02-25 01:42:02 pm

soaking through

Only Nate could do that without being decapitated. Then castrated. Then pissed upon.

Yoshi348

2005-03-01 08:48:57 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Rarg. Rules post has gotten an overhaul with clairifications and stuff, mostly thanks to Ark.

arkarian

2005-03-01 08:53:09 pm

red chamber dream

Please note the new Rule and Policies now in effect, as well as other clarifications.

Zeke

2005-03-01 09:58:16 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Well, maybe nobody cares what I have to say, but I think this new anti-off-topic-posting policy is not just draconian, it's almost offensive. Threads going off topic is a sign of a healthy forum -- it means people are enjoying each other's company. (How many subjects do you usually go through when chatting with an RL friend?) Further, off-topic posting is no threat to on-topic discussion. Anyone who has something new to say about the topic can just post it; if no one does, why shouldn't people be allowed to go on a tangent or two?

Under this new rule, we're only here to talk shop. The individual-game forums will inevitably get even less participation than what little they already have. The Boardwalk and other "free" forums will become overloaded. Bluntly, m2k2 won't be as much fun anymore. Off-topic posts are not a plague, and the Federation overestimates their threat. I urge you to give this some more thought.

(By the way, even if I agreed with this policy, I'd find the way it's being enforced very disturbing. Three of my posts have been deleted without any communication from the moderator responsible. Surely I at least deserved to be told why it was happening.)

Well, maybe nobody cares what I have to say, but I think this new anti-off-topic-posting policy is not just draconian, it's almost offensive.  Threads going off topic is a sign of a healthy forum -- it means people are enjoying each other's company.  (How many subjects do you usually go through when chatting with an RL friend?)  Further, off-topic posting is [i]no threat[/i] to on-topic discussion.  Anyone who has something new to say about the topic can just post it; if no one does, why shouldn't people be allowed to go on a tangent or two?

Under this new rule, we're only here to talk shop.  The individual-game forums will inevitably get even less participation than what little they already have.  The Boardwalk and other "free" forums will become overloaded.  Bluntly, m2k2 won't be as much fun anymore.  Off-topic posts are not a plague, and the Federation overestimates their threat.  I urge you to give this some more thought.

(By the way, even if I agreed with this policy, I'd find the way it's being enforced very disturbing.  Three of my posts have been deleted without any communication from the moderator responsible.  Surely I at least deserved to be told why it was happening.)

Sarah

2005-03-01 10:11:33 pm

I'm finding myself agreeing with Zeke. Any good forum I've been to has had really "loose" conversation in topics, and has proven that the users have a good time. The way topics kinda splinter off around here is what keeps me reading. I find that topics for the most part keep their original "spirit," but tend to flow through varied topics related to or un-related to the original topic. Makes everything feel more fluid.

Just my opinion.

Red Scarlet

2005-03-01 10:48:03 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

All the stupid, random responses that come out of nowhere are annoying.

If you're going to post something off-topic, try my approach..it seems ok..include something about the topic when something off-topic appears (like my Asuka in the FF7/Aerith posts, the MP2d post + an answer to that guy asking about my avatar).

It keeps things moving along for the normal topic, and it blabs about the off-topic thing too.

Too many topics become useless shit with posts by certain people that just say random shit out of nowhere to bump their post count.

Quote from Zeke:

How many subjects do you usually go through when chatting with an RL friend?

I'm not a mod, but well, this is a forum, not a chat. That's what #metroid is for.

Quote from Zeke:

Further, off-topic posting is no threat to on-topic discussion. Anyone who has something new to say about the topic can just post it; if no one does, why shouldn't people be allowed to go on a tangent or two?

I don't know about others, but when a topic starts going down the spiral of mindless nothing, I stop reading the topic altogether, especially when certain names have made the last post. The topic is verily dead and I just click 'mark all topics read' at that point instead.

All the stupid, random responses that come out of nowhere are annoying.

If you're going to post something off-topic, try my approach..it seems ok..include something about the topic when something off-topic appears (like my Asuka in the FF7/Aerith posts, the MP2d post + an answer to that guy asking about my avatar).

It keeps things moving along for the normal topic, and it blabs about the off-topic thing too.

Too many topics become useless shit with posts by certain people that just say random shit out of nowhere to bump their post count.

[quote="Zeke"]How many subjects do you usually go through when chatting with an RL friend?[/quote]

I'm not a mod, but well, this is a forum, not a chat.  That's what #metroid is for.

[quote="Zeke"]Further, off-topic posting is [i]no threat[/i] to on-topic discussion.  Anyone who has something new to say about the topic can just post it; if no one does, why shouldn't people be allowed to go on a tangent or two?[/quote]

I don't know about others, but when a topic starts going down the spiral of mindless nothing, I stop reading the topic altogether, especially when certain names have made the last post.  The topic is verily dead and I just click 'mark all topics read' at that point instead.

nate

2005-03-01 11:27:51 pm

Quote from Zeke:

Well, maybe nobody cares what I have to say

what would make you think that?

Quote from Zeke:

Under this new rule, we're only here to talk shop.

yes ... that's correct. i'm not sure if i can make this as clear as i'd like it to be, so please bear with me for the next few paragraphs.

this forum originally belonged entirely to tim and to tim's site, metroid hq, and that is why he still owns at least a part of it today. tim's site was intended to explore every game in the series in depth (story, theory, etc - not just sequence breaking), and a forum was one way to do that.

for a brief period around the end of october, 2003, tim was not going to redesign and relaunch his site but actually close it entirely to focus on mmn. this meant that whatever i didn't pick up went to the internet garbage heap. the forum was so cute and adorable, and it seemed like a lot of important things could potentially happen there (in terms of sequence breaking), so i worked my ass off for over a week trying to get the damn thing running on my server. little did i know how much trouble it would cause down the line, but i think that you might be catching on at this point, so i'll let the time-trip end there.

the point is that this is not mhq, gamefaqs, samus.co.uk or another mainstream fansite. look at metroid 2002 (the site); just click on some random links or something, and then come back here and look at some of the topics in the forums. doesn't it seem like the forum is a bit broader in scope compared to the rest of the site?

i have been considering this for a long time, and i have decided that the key to a happy medium between social banter and real progress in sequence breaking and speed running lies in the boardwalk and similar forums. i realize that irc is not for everyone, and so that is why i leave the social boards intact.

also keep in mind that this is not a resources issue - it is a focus issue. this forum could have ten times as much traffic and i would never even feel it in terms of bandwidth or other resources. it would just be too insignificant to even easily detect. i have the resources to be "everyone's metroid forum"; i simply choose not to use them. if there were no gamefaqs, if there were no scu, fine then ... my purpose is to render aid to people as long as i am alive, and i would do it in absence of other avenues. but to duplicate something already handled well enough by others is just inefficient.

Quote from Zeke:

The individual-game forums will inevitably get even less participation than what little they already have. The Boardwalk and other "free" forums will become overloaded. Bluntly, m2k2 won't be as much fun anymore.

i'd also considered these points. as for the first one, if there is no activity in the individual-game forums, so be it. as i said, this site is there for a very narrow group of people to use if they so desire. if they don't feel like sequence breaking or speed running today, the forums won't get used.

about the second point, keep in mind that multiple metroid was (i believe) originally intended for exactly the purpose it will now serve (as a metroid-related boardwalk). and, anyway, i'm not going to go around randomly deleting topics. even topics as "mainstream" as "how did dark samus get to aether" will be allowed to proliferate on the individual-game forums so long as they do not appreciably deviate from their original purpose. can you imagine me allowing a topic in the metroid prime 2 forum about bashing people over the head with the absurdities of english "grammar"? if you can, this should be a wake-up call. how is that in any way productive? i mean, if that's what floats your boat, fine ... do it in the boardwalk. (i'll definitely be a lot more complacent about the social forums from now on.)

Quote from Zeke:

Three of my posts have been deleted without any communication from the moderator responsible. Surely I at least deserved to be told why it was happening.

that was a bad call on my part and i apologize. i have to make educated guesses about how people will react to things almost every day and sometimes i miscalculate. please forgive me.

[quote="Zeke"]Well, maybe nobody cares what I have to say[/quote]
what would make you think that?

[quote="Zeke"]Under this new rule, we're only here to talk shop.[/quote]
yes ... that's correct. i'm not sure if i can make this as clear as i'd like it to be, so please bear with me for the next few paragraphs.

this forum originally belonged entirely to tim and to tim's site, metroid hq, and that is why he still owns at least a part of it today. tim's site was intended to explore every game in the series in depth (story, theory, etc - not just sequence breaking), and a forum was one way to do that.

for a brief period around the end of october, 2003, tim was not going to redesign and relaunch his site but actually close it entirely to focus on [url=http://megaman.retrofaction.com/]mmn[/url]. this meant that whatever i didn't pick up went to the internet garbage heap. the forum was so cute and adorable, and it seemed like a lot of important things could potentially happen there (in terms of sequence breaking), so i worked my ass off for over a week trying to get the damn thing running on my server. little did i know how much trouble it would cause down the line, but i think that you might be catching on at this point, so i'll let the time-trip end there.

the point is that this is not mhq, gamefaqs, samus.co.uk or another mainstream fansite. look at metroid 2002 (the site); just click on some random links or something, and then come back here and look at some of the topics in the forums. doesn't it seem like the forum is a bit broader in scope compared to the rest of the site?

i have been considering this for a long time, and i have decided that the key to a happy medium between social banter and real progress in sequence breaking and speed running lies in the boardwalk and similar forums. i realize that irc is not for everyone, and so that is why i leave the social boards intact.

also keep in mind that this is not a resources issue - it is a focus issue. this forum could have ten times as much traffic and i would never even feel it in terms of bandwidth or other resources. it would just be too insignificant to even easily detect. i have the resources to be "everyone's metroid forum"; i simply choose not to use them. if there were no gamefaqs, if there were no scu, fine then ... my purpose is to render aid to people as long as i am alive, and i would do it in absence of other avenues. but to duplicate something already handled well enough by others is just inefficient.

[quote="Zeke"]The individual-game forums will inevitably get even less participation than what little they already have.  The Boardwalk and other "free" forums will become overloaded.  Bluntly, m2k2 won't be as much fun anymore.[/quote]
i'd also considered these points. as for the first one, if there is no activity in the individual-game forums, so be it. as i said, this site is there for a very narrow group of people to use if they so desire. if they don't feel like sequence breaking or speed running today, the forums won't get used.

about the second point, keep in mind that multiple metroid was (i believe) originally intended for exactly the purpose it will now serve (as a metroid-related boardwalk). and, anyway, i'm not going to go around randomly deleting topics. even topics as "mainstream" as "how did dark samus get to aether" will be allowed to proliferate on the individual-game forums [b]so long as they do not appreciably deviate from their original purpose[/b]. can you imagine me allowing a topic in the metroid prime 2 forum about bashing people over the head with the absurdities of english "grammar"? if you can, this should be a wake-up call. how is that in any way productive? i mean, if that's what floats your boat, fine ... do it in the boardwalk. (i'll definitely be a lot more complacent about the social forums from now on.)

[quote="Zeke"]Three of my posts have been deleted without any communication from the moderator responsible.  Surely I at least deserved to be told why it was happening.[/quote]
that was a bad call on my part and i apologize. i have to make educated guesses about how people will react to things almost every day and sometimes i miscalculate. please forgive me.

SABERinBLUE

2005-03-01 11:57:54 pm

Cook of the Sea

I'm willing to toss mine in with Nate on this one provided that there is a definite gray area between on-topic and off-topic. Even a narrow one. I just don't want to be dealing with hard, set-in-stone, high-school-algebra-II-teacher guidelines for posting on topic.

I would suggest that a "chat thread" be stickied to each of the single-game forums in which any posts that do not violate the ToS are allowed. This approach works on forums.StarWars.com very well in the forums that have such threads. You know, where you can technically post about anything with the assumption that people will probably be using it to talk about the game in question. Sort of a "brainstorming" thread, if you will. Thoughts?

Oh, and is it still okay for me to crack wise with an MS Paintness in random threads like I've been doing? I mean, the things simply don't cause derailments other than maybe some people commenting on them while posting primarily about something else.

nate

2005-03-02 12:00:57 am

yeah, that's fine by me ... your art is definitely not garbage. and i guess we'll need to hear what other people think about having individual chat topics for each individual-game forum.

Nida

2005-03-02 12:33:10 am

I can see where both camps are coming from. I think I'm leaning more Zeke's way - and more Nate's way - which in reality means Saber beat me to the punch. :P

Ever since Toozin went all SSJ (yeah, I know, I haven't really seen SSJ Toozin, but I'm relatively new here, gimme a break) on the off-topicness, I think we've done a fair job of policing ourselves. Many people do the Red Scarlet thing and combine off- and on-topic posts. Many others walk the line a little, letting slip some off-topicness here and there in the knowledge that (hopefully) the entire topic won't be derailed. I know I've been bad about this, but I'm trying folks, fo shizzle; I know my skin burns and my innards roil nowadays whenever I make a post which contains little or no on-topic material. Ultimately, in the past week and a half or so, few and far between are the people who persistently follow an off-topic path until the thread is unrecognizable. I think we've been doing a good job, and just like any "new" policy (or newly codified or more strictly enforced policy), we'll fall into stride with it soon enough, hopefully with little guidance from above. As such, I would posit that there be a bit of a grace period of leniency - not asking anyone to look away from the problem, just be understanding - until all us chillins get used to redirecting our neural pathways. Then break out the warning PMs. :)

I'm mostly thinking of... how you say... our slower members with this request, seeing as how I don't really dislike any of them quite so much as to wish them banned over this, and it seems to me that a few people just need a little longer to get used to things. ^^;

Another point: Thankee for codifying the word misuse bit. :)

Question: With regards to 1337, may I assume that it's pretty much a tighter version of our preexisting unwritten law, i.e. it's all right in rare, tiny doses when used deliberately and pointedly by an otherwise articulate poster?

I can see where both camps are coming from. I think I'm leaning more Zeke's way - [i]and[/i] more Nate's way - which in reality means Saber beat me to the punch. :P

Ever since Toozin went all SSJ (yeah, I know, I haven't [i]really[/i] seen SSJ Toozin, but I'm relatively new here, gimme a break) on the off-topicness, I think we've done a fair job of policing ourselves. Many people do the Red Scarlet thing and combine off- and on-topic posts. Many others walk the line a little, letting slip some off-topicness here and there in the knowledge that (hopefully) the entire topic won't be derailed. I know I've been bad about this, but I'm trying folks, fo shizzle; I know my skin burns and my innards roil nowadays whenever I make a post which contains little or no on-topic material. Ultimately, in the past week and a half or so, few and far between are the people who persistently follow an off-topic path until the thread is unrecognizable. I think we've been doing a good job, and just like any "new" policy (or newly codified or more strictly enforced policy), we'll fall into stride with it soon enough, hopefully with little guidance from above. As such, I would posit that there be a bit of a grace period of leniency - not asking anyone to look away from the problem, just be understanding - until all us chillins get used to redirecting our neural pathways. [i]Then[/i] break out the warning PMs. :)

I'm mostly thinking of... how you say... our [i]slower[/i] members with this request, seeing as how I don't really dislike any of them quite so much as to wish them banned over this, and it seems to me that a few people just need a little longer to get used to things. ^^;

Another point: Thankee for codifying the word misuse bit. :)

Question: With regards to 1337, may I assume that it's pretty much a tighter version of our preexisting unwritten law, i.e. it's all right in rare, tiny doses when used deliberately and pointedly by an otherwise articulate poster?

tomatobob

2005-03-02 12:48:48 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

On the 1337 thing, I'm fairly sure it's just don't use it often and don't even think about making an entire post in it unless it an obvious joke.
I'd like a bit more clarification on the off- topic thing, I, like nida, can see where both groups are coming from, but I don't think it is so bad yet that it needs to be strictly enforced, if a topic is made that turns out to be incredibly pointless, but not off topic, get's derailed, as long as it's not disruptive to the other topics it isn't really a problem in my opinion (for what it's worth).

What I'm basically saying, is that if a topic gets derailed it should (obviously) be watched carefully, if it gets greatly out of hand it should be locked, but if it's a stupid topic anyway, it's shouldn't be expected to be on topic all the time people here tend to really jump on stupid topics, I figure that as long as the off topicness doesn't start to cause problems, there should be some leniency, it's very hard to stay on topic forever, and as long as no one goes out and just makes some stipid post that has nothing to do with anything it should be okay. Heh, this is by far the longest post I've ever made....

On the 1337 thing, I'm fairly sure it's just don't use it often and don't even think about making an entire post in it unless it an obvious joke. 
I'd like a bit more clarification on the off- topic thing, I, like nida, can see where both groups are coming from, but I don't think it is so bad yet that it needs to be strictly enforced, if a topic is made that turns out to be incredibly pointless, but not off topic, get's derailed, as long as it's not disruptive to the other topics it isn't really a problem in my opinion (for what it's worth).

What I'm basically saying, is that if a topic gets derailed it should (obviously) be watched carefully, if it gets greatly out of hand it should be locked, but if it's a stupid topic anyway, it's shouldn't be expected to be on topic all the time people here tend to really jump on stupid topics, I figure that as long as the off topicness doesn't start to cause problems, there should be some leniency, it's very hard to stay on topic forever, and as long as no one goes out and just makes some stipid post that has nothing to do with anything it should be okay. Heh, this is by far the longest post I've ever made....

nate

2005-03-02 12:50:47 am

such topics will be moved to either multiple metroid, the boardwalk, or the arts, whichever is most appropriate.

tomatobob

2005-03-02 12:53:23 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Okay, that makes sense, thanks.

SABERinBLUE

2005-03-02 01:00:34 am

Cook of the Sea

I would like to note that

a: I like the direction the discussion is going in. I think it'd be useful if a poll about "chat threads" was put up.
b: Though I would never ever pull a stunt like that again here, I would have to say that I'm proud to hold the record of Most 1337 Used on Metroid 2002. Laughing

Nida

2005-03-02 01:21:28 am

Oh, yeah - chat topics gets t3h vote from me.

arkarian

2005-03-02 06:45:34 am

red chamber dream

Just to let everyone know, the three individual gaming forums have been added to Off-Topic Policy. It is okay to be off-topic in those three forums, along with The Boardwalk, The Arts, and Multiple Metroid.

Skreemaster

2005-03-02 10:43:19 am

I'll be back. Maybe...

Could Toozin update his rules post with three things:

1) Probation
2) The new off-topic rules
3) Censorship: the rules currently do not mention the auto-censor.

Izo

2005-03-02 01:32:45 pm

soaking through

Read the post. Ark already did the first two.

Wassup Dawgs

2005-03-02 02:42:36 pm

And I don't see how (3) would be catergorized as a rule. As far as I know, you can use profane language all you want, and the auto-censor just covers it up. I.E. there's no rule against it.

Skreemaster

2005-03-02 02:53:52 pm

I'll be back. Maybe...

It says to use asterisks.

Yoshi348

2005-03-02 06:31:03 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from Skreemaster:

It says to use asterisks.

It does... Good point.

Re the topic at hand, at the moment I'm observing the conversation here. I had mild... misgivings, when Nate mentioned this, but, I dunno, I didn't say anything.

Sitting on the fence hurts. Stupid pointy fence decerations.

SABERinBLUE

2005-03-02 07:37:26 pm

Cook of the Sea

I've been thinking, and I'd like to ask Nate this one question(s). I'm still with you, Nate, but I did think of this bit of reasoning here: I grok the logic behind your definition of these boards as primarily a place to discuss and forward the world of sequence breaking and speed running in Metroid games. You don't like the off-topic posting on Metroid2002. Fine, I understand the natural reaction that a forum webmaster would have to it. However, what kind of output would you say has been prevented by the off-topic posting that would be present if off-topic posting wasn't there? In the current environment, whenever a topic about a new idea or discovery about sequence breaking is posted or brought up, everyone jumps the heck on it and talks it to death, tests it, retests it, retests it under different circumstances, makes vids, posts vids, and then once it's confirmed/disproved a general "add this to that game's section" or "okay, never mind, let's look for other stuff" can be heard from the mouths of the masses. And then there's all this off-topic posting on the side. What is unacceptable about this? What do you forsee improving about this in the absence of off-topic posting? Don't people just kind of hang out in the game froums, talking about schtuff until they get an idea or someone comes in with one? Given the relative sparseness of new ideas, simply because they're so sparse in the games, not that many people would hang out in the game forums if there was a rule against off-topic posting. If all that was allowed was constructive stuff, who would be there to see it? Random postings about a specific topic on the game is well enough, but if it's allowed basically as a hook to keep people on a game boarding case a new idea shows up, the hook loses its attractiveness if the off-topic posting is suddenly removed from the picture. Topics naturally do that on Metroid2002, and not because people don't care about the real issues, but rather because people around here like to hang with each other. This forum retains a certain conversational quality to its postings, with topic changing rapidly. And then out of this, sequence breaking innovations and ideas appear.

Sequence breaking is an art. I don't sequence break, but I'm an artist, and I know art when I see it. How good at drawing my serious webcomic do you think I'd be if I was only allowed to draw new pages of it, and was denied the ability to do random sketches and doodles in excess of the webcomic?

Quote from Albert Einstein:

I think and think for months and years. Ninety-nine times, the conclusion is false. The hundredth time I am right.

I contend that the primary inspiration for Metroid sequence breaking comes not from in-game testing but rather from the random musings and such of these boards.

So I ask again: You don't like the off-topic posting on Metroid2002. What don't you like about the results?

I've been thinking, and I'd like to ask Nate this one question(s).  I'm still with you, Nate, but I did think of this bit of reasoning here:  I grok the logic behind your definition of these boards as primarily a place to discuss and forward the world of sequence breaking and speed running in Metroid games.  You don't like the off-topic posting on Metroid2002.  Fine, I understand the natural reaction that a forum webmaster would have to it.  However, what kind of output would you say has been prevented by the off-topic posting that would be present if off-topic posting wasn't there?  In the current environment, whenever a topic about a new idea or discovery about sequence breaking is posted or brought up, everyone jumps the heck on it and talks it to death, tests it, retests it, retests it under different circumstances, makes vids, posts vids, and then once it's confirmed/disproved a general "add this to that game's section" or "okay, never mind, let's look for other stuff" can be heard from the mouths of the masses.  And then there's all this off-topic posting on the side.  What is unacceptable about this?  What do you forsee improving about this in the absence of off-topic posting?  Don't people just kind of hang out in the game froums, talking about schtuff until they get an idea or someone comes in with one?  Given the relative sparseness of new ideas, simply because they're so sparse in the games, not that many people would hang out in the game forums if there was a rule against off-topic posting.  If all that was allowed was constructive stuff, who would be there to see it?  Random postings about a specific topic on the game is well enough, but if it's allowed basically as a hook to keep people on a game boarding case a new idea shows up, the hook loses its attractiveness if the off-topic posting is suddenly removed from the picture.  Topics naturally do that on Metroid2002, and not because people don't care about the real issues, but rather because people around here like to hang with each other.  This forum retains a certain conversational quality to its postings, with topic changing rapidly.  And then out of this, sequence breaking innovations and ideas appear.

Sequence breaking is an art.  I don't sequence break, but I'm an artist, and I know art when I see it.  How good at drawing my serious webcomic do you think I'd be if I was only allowed to draw new pages of it, and was denied the ability to do random sketches and doodles in excess of the webcomic?

[quote="Albert Einstein"]I think and think for months and years. Ninety-nine times, the conclusion is false. The hundredth time I am right. [/quote]

I contend that the primary inspiration for Metroid sequence breaking comes not from in-game testing but rather from the random musings and such of these boards.

So I ask again:  You don't like the off-topic posting on Metroid2002.  What don't you like about the results?