No Torizo!?!?!

2005-01-23 02:51:32 am

well. that's interesting.
imagine some of the sequence breaking opportunities you could have if you had the patience.

2005-01-23 04:21:46 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

To my knowledge, exactly one useful Blue Suit sequence break has been found: skipping the Ice Beam. Normally it's not too hard to skip the Ice Beam in Super -- you can kill the Metroids with Power Bombs, and every other area requiring Ice Beam can be worked around. However, if you're going for the lowest percent you can possibly manage (14%), there's another spot where you need the Ice Beam: Mother Brain's room. You don't have enough missiles to destroy the Zeebetites, so you have to use the Zeebetite glitch, and that involves freezing a Rinka. But it was discovered that you can also use a perfectly-timed shinespark to break through the first Zeebetite. The only way to get a shinespark there is with the Blue Suit, so the Blue Suit is the reason it's possible to skip the Ice Beam in favour of the Speed Booster in a 14% run.

That's only interesting for theoretical reasons, though. Nobody's going to try it on the console -- every time you die, which is easy to do in low-percent, you have to get the Blue Suit all over again. And so far there doesn't seem to be any other practical use for the thing. Sure, there are plenty of rooms where a shinespark would save time, but that's kind of outbalanced by the fact that you can't run anywhere else in the game until you use the spark....

To my knowledge, exactly one useful Blue Suit sequence break has been found: skipping the Ice Beam.  Normally it's not too hard to skip the Ice Beam in Super -- you can kill the Metroids with Power Bombs, and every other area requiring Ice Beam can be worked around.  However, if you're going for the lowest percent you can possibly manage (14%), there's another spot where you need the Ice Beam: Mother Brain's room.  You don't have enough missiles to destroy the Zeebetites, so you have to use the [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/3/speed_tricks_glitch_through_zebetites.php]Zeebetite glitch[/url], and that involves freezing a Rinka.  [i]But[/i] it was discovered that you can also use a perfectly-timed shinespark to break through the first Zeebetite.  The only way to get a shinespark there is with the Blue Suit, so the Blue Suit is the reason it's possible to skip the Ice Beam in favour of the Speed Booster in a 14% run.

That's only interesting for theoretical reasons, though.  Nobody's going to try it on the console -- every time you die, which is easy to do in low-percent, you have to get the Blue Suit all over again.  And so far there doesn't seem to be any other practical use for the thing.  Sure, there are plenty of rooms where a shinespark would save time, but that's kind of outbalanced by the fact that you can't run [i]anywhere else in the game[/i] until you use the spark....

Kejardon

2005-01-23 01:44:09 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Technically, the blue-suit entrance was found before the ice beam entrance.
Also, later on it was found that you can get a charge in Tourian, starting in the room before Mother Brain. But that requires some very precise timing with the run button, so it might take you a long time to pull it off.

darkarchonisme

2005-01-23 08:47:53 pm

well, i wasn't speaking of sequence breaking for speed, just sequence breaking.

Zeke

2005-01-26 02:00:46 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from Kejardon:

Technically, the blue-suit entrance was found before the ice beam entrance.

Oh. Well, close enough.

Quote:

Also, later on it was found that you can get a charge in Tourian, starting in the room before Mother Brain. But that requires some very precise timing with the run button, so it might take you a long time to pull it off.

Really? Awesome -- that makes it a lot more likely someone will try a Speed 14% on the console. You should add that information to your excellent 15% FAQ.

Kejardon

2005-01-26 02:15:43 am

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote from Zeke:

You should add that information to your excellent 15% FAQ.

Ack. Don't know why I didn't think of that.
Although, now that I think about it, there were other things I wanted to add, too, but I didn't think they merited an update. :/ And of course, I didn't write them down anywhere.
::Edit:: Managed to remember a bunch of stuff I wanted to change. While I'm at it, I'm going to read over the whole thing - a lot of parts are out of date. :/ While I'm at it, anyone notice any mistakes or anything while looking through it that I need to change?
I just used 'While I'm at it' twice in a row. >_> At least it makes sense. Somewhat. ::/Edit::

Zeke

2005-01-26 07:45:05 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from Kejardon:

While I'm at it, anyone notice any mistakes or anything while looking through it that I need to change?

I just re-read the whole thing (always a worthwhile use of time), and here are a few things that occurred to me:

- You might want to cover the mockball in your move list, because it's required for the Ice 14% path. It's also worth mentioning that it lets you skip Spore Spawn -- I know nobody's going to do a 15% run for speed, but skipping Spore Spawn is just cool.

- Speaking of the move list, maybe the... wait, no. There's no point in describing the Crystal Flash because you'll never have 11 Power Bombs. That's too bad -- I'll bet it would come in handy in a 15% run. Oh well.

- The Gravity Suit shinespark is a classier and possibly less painful way to get past the spike room. It's hard to do, but no one doing a 15% run will be afraid of that.

- Three questions about Ridley. First, does his attack pattern change in any way if you only use the Charge Beam? It may be my imagination, but I could almost swear that it triggers his self-destruct early. Several SM bosses find one kind of weapon particularly irritating -- I wonder if Ridley has the opposite condition of particularly "liking" the Charge Beam.

- Second Ridley question: you note that when Ridley enters his Berserk mode, he'll die if he grabs you. Is there any way to encourage him to do that? I find that when it looks like he's getting ready to blow, he'll usually grab me right away if I give him an opening. Of course, in 15% conditions, you'd need to be really sure before you even thought about giving him that opening.

- Finally, Ridley and Power Bombs. You say one Power Bomb can hit Ridley twice. How do you get it to do so? And you might want to mention that Power Bombs can damage Ridley before the fight actually starts. It's a couple of free shots that you may as well take.

I've also made a list of minor spelling-type errors which I'll PM you. (My dad's a professional editor -- I get it from him.)

[quote="Kejardon"]While I'm at it, anyone notice any mistakes or anything while looking through it that I need to change?[/quote]

I just re-read the whole thing (always a worthwhile use of time), and here are a few things that occurred to me:

- You might want to cover the mockball in your move list, because it's required for the Ice 14% path.  It's also worth mentioning that it lets you skip Spore Spawn -- I know nobody's going to do a 15% run for speed, but skipping Spore Spawn is just cool.

- Speaking of the move list, maybe the... wait, no.  There's no point in describing the Crystal Flash because you'll never have 11 Power Bombs.  That's too bad -- I'll bet it would come in handy in a 15% run.  Oh well.

- The [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/3/speed_tricks_gravity_suit_shinespark.php]Gravity Suit shinespark[/url] is a classier and possibly less painful way to get past the spike room.  It's hard to do, but no one doing a 15% run will be afraid of that.

- Three questions about Ridley.  First, does his attack pattern change in any way if you only use the Charge Beam?  It may be my imagination, but I could almost swear that it triggers his self-destruct early.  Several SM bosses find one kind of weapon particularly irritating -- I wonder if Ridley has the opposite condition of particularly "liking" the Charge Beam.

- Second Ridley question: you note that when Ridley enters his Berserk mode, he'll die if he grabs you.  Is there any way to encourage him to do that?  I find that when it looks like he's getting ready to blow, he'll usually grab me right away if I give him an opening.  Of course, in 15% conditions, you'd need to be [i]really[/i] sure before you even thought about giving him that opening.

- Finally, Ridley and Power Bombs.  You say one Power Bomb can hit Ridley twice.  How do you get it to do so?  And you might want to mention that Power Bombs can damage Ridley before the fight actually starts.  It's a couple of free shots that you may as well take.

I've also made a list of minor spelling-type errors which I'll PM you.  (My dad's a professional editor -- I get it from him.)

Kejardon

2005-01-26 12:23:05 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

"- Three questions about Ridley. First, does his attack pattern change in any way if you only use the Charge Beam? It may be my imagination, but I could almost swear that it triggers his self-destruct early."

Up to berserk, I'm pretty certain what weapons you use have no effect (except for power bombs). After berserk, I never did any testing specifically for that, but I didn't notice anything that would suggest that. Simply damaging him while he's berserk seems to make him die faster, though; I don't know if it depends on what you hit him with, though, so from what I know, normal missiles may actually be the best weapon at that point. Hmm, now that I think about it, I've never tried to use power bombs when Ridley was berserk (or at the least, I don't remember ever trying power bombs at that point).
So, um. Basically, I don't know, but I don't think so. I'll check that.
For what it's worth, though, much of Ridley's AI depends on Samus's position; if you have a different attack pattern for using charge beam than using missiles, Ridley will also act differently.

"- Second Ridley question: you note that when Ridley enters his Berserk mode, he'll die if he grabs you. Is there any way to encourage him to do that? I find that when it looks like he's getting ready to blow, he'll usually grab me right away if I give him an opening. Of course, in 15% conditions, you'd need to be really sure before you even thought about giving him that opening."

I should probably change that; he has a chance of dieing when he grabs you. He won't die every time, but I'd say it's greater than 50%.
Ridley will always grab you only during certain attacks. At the moment, I don't have much information on when he goes berserk, but I can look into that, too.
I still wouldn't much recommend getting him to grab you though; At that point it's best to stay away from Ridley, he changes directions too quickly to easily predict where he's heading, and it's easy to take a lot of damage quickly.

"- Finally, Ridley and Power Bombs. You say one Power Bomb can hit Ridley twice. How do you get it to do so? And you might want to mention that Power Bombs can damage Ridley before the fight actually starts. It's a couple of free shots that you may as well take."

If you damage Ridley before the start of the battle, he'll have invincibility time. However, that invincibility time won't decrease until Ridley would normally be vulnerable. So you aren't really gaining any free shots, you're just exchanging charge shots for Power Bombs.
That said, if you don't want to use power bombs during the battle, it makes sense to use one before. But otherwise, I think it's easier just to use them all at once like I explained in the walkthrough.
Er. And to answer the first question, power bomb explosions last significantly longer than the invincibility time enemies gain from being hit by a power bomb. So if they're hit early enough during the explosion, they can still be hit again when their invincibility time wears off. Ridley's no different, the only trick is getting him to be close enough to a power bomb when it explodes. Placing it in the center of the room as he's rushing towards you is the most effective strategy I've found.
But I've reread what I wrote... I could have phrased it a bit better.

::edit::
While I'm working on the file, I'll upload it to the below address.
http://www.metroid2002.com/kejardon/Documents/super_metroid_15.txt
::/edit::

"- Three questions about Ridley.  First, does his attack pattern change in any way if you only use the Charge Beam?  It may be my imagination, but I could almost swear that it triggers his self-destruct early."

Up to berserk, I'm pretty certain what weapons you use have no effect (except for power bombs). After berserk, I never did any testing specifically for that, but I didn't notice anything that would suggest that. Simply damaging him while he's berserk seems to make him die faster, though; I don't know if it depends on what you hit him with, though, so from what I know, normal missiles may actually be the best weapon at that point. Hmm, now that I think about it, I've never tried to use power bombs when Ridley was berserk (or at the least, I don't remember ever trying power bombs at that point).
So, um. Basically, I don't know, but I don't think so. I'll check that.
For what it's worth, though, much of Ridley's AI depends on Samus's position; if you have a different attack pattern for using charge beam than using missiles, Ridley will also act differently.

"- Second Ridley question: you note that when Ridley enters his Berserk mode, he'll die if he grabs you.  Is there any way to encourage him to do that?  I find that when it looks like he's getting ready to blow, he'll usually grab me right away if I give him an opening.  Of course, in 15% conditions, you'd need to be [i]really[/i] sure before you even thought about giving him that opening."

I should probably change that; he has a chance of dieing when he grabs you. He won't die every time, but I'd say it's greater than 50%.
Ridley will always grab you only during certain attacks. At the moment, I don't have much information on when he goes berserk, but I can look into that, too.
I still wouldn't much recommend getting him to grab you though; At that point it's best to stay away from Ridley, he changes directions too quickly to easily predict where he's heading, and it's easy to take a lot of damage quickly.

"- Finally, Ridley and Power Bombs.  You say one Power Bomb can hit Ridley twice.  How do you get it to do so?  And you might want to mention that Power Bombs can damage Ridley before the fight actually starts.  It's a couple of free shots that you may as well take."

If you damage Ridley before the start of the battle, he'll have invincibility time. However, that invincibility time won't decrease until Ridley would normally be vulnerable. So you aren't really gaining any free shots, you're just exchanging charge shots for Power Bombs.
That said, if you don't want to use power bombs during the battle, it makes sense to use one before. But otherwise, I think it's easier just to use them all at once like I explained in the walkthrough.
Er. And to answer the first question, power bomb explosions last significantly longer than the invincibility time enemies gain from being hit by a power bomb. So if they're hit early enough during the explosion, they can still be hit again when their invincibility time wears off. Ridley's no different, the only trick is getting him to be close enough to a power bomb when it explodes. Placing it in the center of the room as he's rushing towards you is the most effective strategy I've found.
But I've reread what I wrote... I could have phrased it a bit better.

::edit::
While I'm working on the file, I'll upload it to the below address.
http://www.metroid2002.com/kejardon/Documents/super_metroid_15.txt
::/edit::

Tim

2005-01-28 12:03:18 pm

Hey Kejardon, I'm pretty sure I've talked to you in the past, but I don't think I really ever followed up on anything.

The Metroid website I've been putting together was always going to have a small bit of speed and sequence breaking stuff on it, and I was curious as to whether or not you'd allow your 15% walkthrough to be hosted there as part of the low % sections.

A lot of links are still broken due to my still-in-progress-reorganization, but you can see a bit of the stuff here: http://metroid.retrofaction.com/index.php

Thanks,

-Tim