Viking
Precursor
I was originally going to post this in the anime thread, since that's the thread that made me twitch enough to write this. But then I realized that since that thread moves retardedly fast, the post would be pushed ten pages back in no time. So remember that's where I were when I wrote most of this.
I'm gonna take a moment to rant here, because that thread is becoming unreadable for me and is nothing but an exercise in frustration, and is going off topic at the drop of a hat anyway. And yes, I fully realize the stupidity in telling the people who made the actual software and had this utility in mind that they're using it wrong, but I know all too well myself that you need unrelated people to tell you what's wrong with your project. But, clearly, I don't care, and I just picked this example since it was on the last page of the thread. Or was, when I was there. For me, with max posts displayed on one page.
Now, I'm going to start off by saying that I like this here taiga forum (the fact that most of the skins suck notwithstanding). It's a solid piece of software, well-supported, and is overall something new as far as forum software goes. However, at heart, it's still meant to be a forum software, and you presented it as a forum software. The difference, to me, between a forum and instant messaging such as IRC or Skype is the amount of thought and length put into each message. On IRC, I can often write up to 8-10 lines in a row myself, without anyone else talking, and that feels natural to me. In instant messaging clients, messages appear close together, and you can always scroll up and then down, and everything is there in the log.
A forum isn't like that. A thread on a forum has pages. If the conversation started four pages ago, you have to read through all pages if you weren't in on it from the beginning. So you load the pages and read. Traditionally, double-posting is frowned upon on forums, especially when it could easily have been put in the same post. I'm definitely of that opinion.
Which brings me to my example. Hi, ark, you already heard me make a fuss about this on IRC. By the way, "frankly i don't really care what people think a "forum" is or should be" is a bad mindset when you're trying to make a sell.
Now:
This, to me, is a prime example of using a forum to instant message. There was no reason for this to be three posts. Watch:
Much better.
This is not IRC. This is not Skype. "it's easier/better to type what you're thinking as you think it, sort of like a real conversation" is a valid idea, but when it turns a thread into a 200+ page mess where post/pagecount is artificially inflated by 4x just because people use it as instant messaging, it gets out of hand. Following such topics becomes horrible. It's a good idea to think through what you're about to say in real conversation too.
Part of my problem was that every post was accompanied by the postbox and avatar of the poster. I was told about chat mode. I checked it out. That's not a solution, because you still have the problem with inflated post and pagecount. It's still no IRC.
Now, I clearly understand that nate and ark wanted to make some sort of forum/instant chat hybrid, and realtime updating of boards and threads goes a long way there, and the implementation works wonderfully, but the application of it doesn't. There needs to be more of a distinction. You can't really design a forum but try to make an instant messaging client. Not saying you can't have both.
So?
One of the things is that chat mode doesn't quite cut it. Here's what I feel could be done with it to make it work:
- Minimize it even more. Basically, it should look more like this:
arkarian: so guys
arkarian: what do you think of metroid
arkarian: i think eh's a pretty cool guy
JaggerG: I prefer Halo.
JaggerG: eh doesnt afraid of anything.
Poision Envy: Zelda is better because he has a sword
arkarian: i'm a sexy beast
I'd put lines inbetween the... lines, but couldn't remember if there was a command for that. Bascially just leave little to no space between the content of the post and the post box. And keep the username on the same line to minimize space.
- Here's the big one: more posts per page. If a thread is a chat, you want more than 50 posts per page. If each "full message" takes, say, on average, three posts, that means that on one page, you have 16 messages (alright, 16,666666..., but that's not the point) instead of the 50 you asked for when you set that in your thread options. At the moment, chat mode is an insufficent forum/chat hybrid. With IRC support, it'll just get even worse, if half of the people in a conversation treats it as an IRC channel and the other half as a forum thread. Which brings me to my next point:
- While the "chat mode" view should remain as an option for any thread, the threadmaker should be able to set a thread to chat mode with a checkbox to the left there, together with Static and Poll, which would make the thread default chat mode for everyone who enters it, and not possible to change by people who aren't the threadmaker. These should be marked in the same way as Statics and Polls, like so:
Chat: Who likes bacon?
And as such, threads that are chat should have a higher possible posts per page, and probably a fairly high default as well. And these would be the threads you can hit up via IRC too. Thus, we have a forum, which also offers great support for instant messging, but when one starts getting used as the other, it simply doesn't work in the long run.
I have made my point.
I'm gonna take a moment to rant here, because that thread is becoming unreadable for me and is nothing but an exercise in frustration, and is going off topic at the drop of a hat anyway. And yes, I fully realize the stupidity in telling the people who made the actual software and had this utility in mind that they're using it wrong, but I know all too well myself that you need unrelated people to tell you what's wrong with your project. But, clearly, I don't care, and I just picked this example since it was on the last page of the thread. Or was, when I was there. For me, with max posts displayed on one page.
Now, I'm going to start off by saying that I like this here taiga forum (the fact that most of the skins suck notwithstanding). It's a solid piece of software, well-supported, and is overall something new as far as forum software goes. However, at heart, it's still meant to be a forum software, and you presented it as a forum software. The difference, to me, between a forum and instant messaging such as IRC or Skype is the amount of thought and length put into each message. On IRC, I can often write up to 8-10 lines in a row myself, without anyone else talking, and that feels natural to me. In instant messaging clients, messages appear close together, and you can always scroll up and then down, and everything is there in the log.
A forum isn't like that. A thread on a forum has pages. If the conversation started four pages ago, you have to read through all pages if you weren't in on it from the beginning. So you load the pages and read. Traditionally, double-posting is frowned upon on forums, especially when it could easily have been put in the same post. I'm definitely of that opinion.
Which brings me to my example. Hi, ark, you already heard me make a fuss about this on IRC. By the way, "frankly i don't really care what people think a "forum" is or should be" is a bad mindset when you're trying to make a sell.
Now:
Quote from arkarian:
hsotd is just bad
Quote from arkarian:
like
Quote from arkarian:
fucking horrible and not enjoyable in any way
This, to me, is a prime example of using a forum to instant message. There was no reason for this to be three posts. Watch:
Quote from arkarian:
hsotd is just bad. like, fucking horrible and not enjoyable in any way.
Much better.
This is not IRC. This is not Skype. "it's easier/better to type what you're thinking as you think it, sort of like a real conversation" is a valid idea, but when it turns a thread into a 200+ page mess where post/pagecount is artificially inflated by 4x just because people use it as instant messaging, it gets out of hand. Following such topics becomes horrible. It's a good idea to think through what you're about to say in real conversation too.
Part of my problem was that every post was accompanied by the postbox and avatar of the poster. I was told about chat mode. I checked it out. That's not a solution, because you still have the problem with inflated post and pagecount. It's still no IRC.
Now, I clearly understand that nate and ark wanted to make some sort of forum/instant chat hybrid, and realtime updating of boards and threads goes a long way there, and the implementation works wonderfully, but the application of it doesn't. There needs to be more of a distinction. You can't really design a forum but try to make an instant messaging client. Not saying you can't have both.
So?
One of the things is that chat mode doesn't quite cut it. Here's what I feel could be done with it to make it work:
- Minimize it even more. Basically, it should look more like this:
arkarian: so guys
arkarian: what do you think of metroid
arkarian: i think eh's a pretty cool guy
JaggerG: I prefer Halo.
JaggerG: eh doesnt afraid of anything.
Poision Envy: Zelda is better because he has a sword
arkarian: i'm a sexy beast
I'd put lines inbetween the... lines, but couldn't remember if there was a command for that. Bascially just leave little to no space between the content of the post and the post box. And keep the username on the same line to minimize space.
- Here's the big one: more posts per page. If a thread is a chat, you want more than 50 posts per page. If each "full message" takes, say, on average, three posts, that means that on one page, you have 16 messages (alright, 16,666666..., but that's not the point) instead of the 50 you asked for when you set that in your thread options. At the moment, chat mode is an insufficent forum/chat hybrid. With IRC support, it'll just get even worse, if half of the people in a conversation treats it as an IRC channel and the other half as a forum thread. Which brings me to my next point:
- While the "chat mode" view should remain as an option for any thread, the threadmaker should be able to set a thread to chat mode with a checkbox to the left there, together with Static and Poll, which would make the thread default chat mode for everyone who enters it, and not possible to change by people who aren't the threadmaker. These should be marked in the same way as Statics and Polls, like so:
Chat: Who likes bacon?
And as such, threads that are chat should have a higher possible posts per page, and probably a fairly high default as well. And these would be the threads you can hit up via IRC too. Thus, we have a forum, which also offers great support for instant messging, but when one starts getting used as the other, it simply doesn't work in the long run.
I have made my point.
Thread title: