What makes good room design?

2007-12-09 09:28:57 pm

This is a question I've been asking myself a bit recently. Having come from hacking Super Mario World, I have a great idea of what a level should be like in that game. However, having just come to Super Metroid hacking, as many hacks as I've played and beaten, I still don't really know what goes into a good room design. Sure, I can look at hacks like Redesign and the Japanese ones, for inspiration, but I don't want to rip off of them. So, I'd like to get some suggestions from the more experienced hackers out here. I'd really appreciate it.

What makes good room design?

Thread title:

Cardweaver

2007-12-09 10:18:50 pm

The number one thing that makes a room good is its uniqueness. If it looks the same as all the others, its no fun. Then again, if its completely random, and bizarre, then it could also be bad. A balance of originality, continuity, and challenge make a room good (IMO)

DMantra

(user is banned)

2007-12-09 10:41:08 pm

Breathe in the Future, Breathe out the Past

What makes good room design is unique aesthetics. For instance, Golden Dawn had some supurb concepts, none of which I'd like to see rehashed because that wouldn't be unique. I started level designing around a decade ago for duke nukem, the level editor had a steep learning curve but I did my best to have original designs. If any of you remember Tenchu 2 for the PS, I have 3 memory cards full of levels I made in that too. I just love designing. But back to Super Metroid, yeah, unique aesthetics. Some bothersome designs are morph ball puzzles with unrealistic secrets, it's good to give ambiguous hints with your maps, sort of indirect approaches. I'm currently doing a complete overhaul of my one room hack and cramming as much ideas as I can without having it seem too contrived.

ICheatAtGolf

Edit history:

ICheatAtGolf: 2007-12-10 12:43:07 am

2007-12-10 12:32:01 am

Avoid being annoying with your design. While Dependence and Golden Dawn were definitely good hacks, I found myself very angered toward the beginning and middle of each. This is because the exploration aspect was taken too far.

The mistake that most hackers make is: They fail to look at the hack from the PLAYER's point of view, rather than their own. A puzzle that may be somewhat easy for YOU, may be extremely challenging for the player and sometimes even cause them to quit. What a waste of work eh? Simply put, the player doesn't want to run around searching hours upon hours for a "cleverly hidden" super missile block, hidden in the most unlikely place in the game. Please don't do things like that.

Other things that tend to annoy players are:

-Morphball mazes (As previously stated)
-Crumble block puzzles (Unless there's a clever way around them, like in legacy)
-Dead end puzzles (If you fail, tough luck, death/no more tries)
-Forced save-state abuse (SMI is an exception of this, we were warned beforehand)
-Cramped areas that leave the player unable to move very freely (fFee movement is what makes SM fun)
-Forcing players to take damage (Spikes in front of you just as you come out of a door? lame.)
-Bomb jumping
-Pitfalls after completing an extremely hard puzzle (Start over? how about no, i'll just quit.)

Also remember your players don't like to be taunted. There's a fine line between letting your player know there's an item in the room, and borderline insulting their intelligence. If you make a room with powerbomb blocks blocking an item, that's ok, they'll come back later. But if they come back later to find out the item is impossible to get, that's not good game design. I've seen this only a few times.

These are just a few examples. You can up the difficulty without making the game frustrating. A couple good examples of this are Cardweaver's Puddin and Metroid Limit. You don't have to rip, just use their creativity as inspiration for your own.

To summarize: People want to play hacks that are FUN. I've played a few boss rush hacks, while lazily designed and short, they were still entertaining. Luck manipulation, save states, morphball mazes, and instant deaths aren't many people's cup of tea, unless they happen to be a TASer.

Avoid being annoying with your design.  While Dependence and Golden Dawn were definitely good hacks, I found myself very angered toward the beginning and middle of each.  This is because the exploration aspect was taken too far.

The mistake that most hackers make is:  They fail to look at the hack from the PLAYER's point of view, rather than their own.   A puzzle that may be somewhat easy for YOU, may be extremely challenging for the player and sometimes even cause them to quit.  What a waste of work eh?  Simply put, the player doesn't want to run around searching hours upon hours for a "cleverly hidden" super missile block, hidden in the most unlikely place in the game.  Please don't do things like that.

Other things that tend to annoy players are:

-Morphball mazes (As previously stated) 
-Crumble block puzzles (Unless there's a clever way around them, like in legacy)
-Dead end puzzles (If you fail, tough luck, death/no more tries)  
-Forced save-state abuse (SMI is an exception of this, we were warned beforehand)
-Cramped areas that leave the player unable to move very freely (fFee movement is what makes SM fun)
-Forcing players to take damage (Spikes in front of you just as you come out of a door?  lame.)
-Bomb jumping
-Pitfalls after completing an extremely hard puzzle (Start over?  how about no, i'll just quit.)

Also remember your players don't like to be taunted.  There's a fine line between letting your player know there's an item in the room, and borderline insulting their intelligence.  If you make a room with powerbomb blocks blocking an item, that's ok, they'll come back later.  But if they come back later to find out the item is impossible to get, that's not good game design.  I've seen this only a few times.

These are just a few examples.  You can up the difficulty without making the game frustrating.  A couple good examples of this are Cardweaver's Puddin and Metroid Limit.  You don't have to rip, just use their creativity as inspiration for your own.

To summarize:  People want to play hacks that are FUN.  I've played a few boss rush hacks, while lazily designed and short, they were still entertaining.  Luck manipulation, save states, morphball mazes, and instant deaths aren't many people's cup of tea, unless they happen to be a TASer.

Black Telomeres

2007-12-10 02:05:02 am

Quote from DMantra:

What makes good room design is unique aesthetics.

I definitely agree with this. Doing things that the original game didn't do with tilesets is one of my major design philosophies. If the original SM did it, it's ok to use as if you have to, but what I really like to see is when a hack produces something no one else has thought of making with the same tileset the original game used. Although creating new tilesets is good too, and gives a hack a big advantage. It's just it costs more time and not everyone has the patience and desire to do it. Also, large rooms are the most fun for me, since they give an opportunity to make some really unique, impressive structure around/in the room that can be interesting just to look at as well as play through.

Quote from DMantra:

For instance, Golden Dawn had some supurb concepts, none of which I'd like to see rehashed because that wouldn't be unique.

Why thank you.

Quote from DMantra:

it's good to give ambiguous hints with your maps, sort of indirect approaches.

I agree. You can sometimes drop hints just by the way stuff is placed on the map if the player is looking at the map closely enough. Same for hidden paths in the game itself. Although there's still sometimes an issue between what one person may deem too obscure or obvious and what another will. Some people will notice it in just the right amount of time and not have an issue and it may cause problems for others. About the only thing you can do to avoid this is to make everything easy to find laugh new

Quote from ICheatAtGolf:

While Dependence and Golden Dawn were definitely good hacks, I found myself very angered toward the beginning and middle of each. This is because the exploration aspect was taken too far.

I don't think there's anything you can do about that once a certain amount of the planet opens up if the hack is designed to be nonlinear (not locking you in a small area of the planet until you figure out which way to go or find the right passage); unless all the hidden stuff is behind SM doors/PB doors with very little hidden passages (or easy ones). I remember having this same issue for nearly every full hack I've played (especially Redesign near the middle/end and portions of Legacy and SFI) and even sometimes the Primes with 'hints' turned off, where I had to search for quite awhile to find out where to go. Once a lot of the planet opens up, you have to go check things a lot to find the "right way" and missing one little thing (which is only natural sometimes for everyone) can cause you to be set back for awhile. Some people have a low tolerance for this and some have a higher tolerance; the same as for some of the difficulty hacks that require a lot of difficult tricks and retrying things multiple times to get it right. This is just a part of the Metroid gameplay system and it'd be difficult to remove frustration caused by not knowing where to go without adding in a hint system like Zero Mission or the Primes.

With half hacks, this aspect becomes less of an issue because you already have the map outline of SM in your head. And you know that for the most part, the hack isn't going to deviate from that as much, although you may take different ways to different places and the items may be in different locations.

[quote="DMantra"]
What makes good room design is unique aesthetics. [/quote]

I definitely agree with this. Doing things that the original game didn't do with tilesets is one of my major design philosophies. If the original SM did it, it's ok to use as if you have to, but what I really like to see is when a hack produces something no one else has thought of making with the same tileset the original game used. Although creating new tilesets is good too, and gives a hack a big advantage. It's just it costs more time and not everyone has the patience and desire to do it. Also, large rooms are the most fun for me, since they give an opportunity to make some really unique, impressive structure around/in the room that can be interesting just to look at as well as play through.

[quote="DMantra"]For instance, Golden Dawn had some supurb concepts, none of which I'd like to see rehashed because that wouldn't be unique. [/quote]

Why thank you.

[quote="DMantra"]
it's good to give ambiguous hints with your maps, sort of indirect approaches.
 [/quote]

I agree. You can sometimes drop hints just by the way stuff is placed on the map if the player is looking at the map closely enough. Same for hidden paths in the game itself. Although there's still sometimes an issue between what one person may deem too obscure or obvious and what another will. Some people will notice it in just the right amount of time and not have an issue and it may cause problems for others. About the only thing you can do to avoid this is to make everything easy to find  :laugh:

[quote="ICheatAtGolf"]While Dependence and Golden Dawn were definitely good hacks, I found myself very angered toward the beginning and middle of each.  This is because the exploration aspect was taken too far. [/quote]

I don't think there's anything you can do about that once a certain amount of the planet opens up if the hack is designed to be nonlinear (not locking you in a small area of the planet until you figure out which way to go or find the right passage); unless all the hidden stuff is behind SM doors/PB doors with very little hidden passages (or easy ones). I remember having this same issue for nearly every full hack I've played (especially Redesign near the middle/end and portions of Legacy and SFI) and even sometimes the Primes with 'hints' turned off, where I had to search for quite awhile to find out where to go. Once a lot of the planet opens up, you have to go check things a lot to find the "right way" and missing one little thing (which is only natural sometimes for everyone) can cause you to be set back for awhile. Some people have a low tolerance for this and some have a higher tolerance; the same as for some of the difficulty hacks that require a lot of difficult tricks and retrying things multiple times to get it right. This is just a part of the Metroid gameplay system and it'd be difficult to remove frustration caused by not knowing where to go without adding in a hint system like Zero Mission or the Primes.

With half hacks, this aspect becomes less of an issue because you already have the map outline of SM in your head. And you know that for the most part, the hack isn't going to deviate from that as much, although you may take different ways to different places and the items may be in different locations.

DMantra

(user is banned)

2007-12-10 03:04:39 am

Breathe in the Future, Breathe out the Past

Quote from Black Telomeres:

Quote from DMantra:

What makes good room design is unique aesthetics.

I definitely agree with this. Doing things that the original game didn't do with tilesets is one of my major design philosophies. If the original SM did it, it's ok to use as if you have to, but what I really like to see is when a hack produces something no one else has thought of making with the same tileset the original game used. Although creating new tilesets is good too, and gives a hack a big advantage. It's just it costs more time and not everyone has the patience and desire to do it. Also, large rooms are the most fun for me, since they give an opportunity to make some really unique, impressive structure around/in the room that can be interesting just to look at as well as play through.

Absolutely. I often used to fantasize about being on a chozo planet, like if super metroid were properly made into the best film ever (ofcourse imagined). Before I knew about SMILE, before I knew about hacks, before I even knew about the internet, I wanted to play a perfect super metroid game, like with the best aesthetics ever. I used to like finding lush spots in the game and just stand there and absorb the surroundings. Of all the hacks I've played, I've seen some impressive structures, I mentioned yours because of the amorphous land so well conceived into a realistic alien planet. (mind you, your hack is the only one I've yet to beat on my current roster. But I will get back to it eventually.)

Quote from Black Telomeres:

Quote from DMantra:

it's good to give ambiguous hints with your maps, sort of indirect approaches.

I agree. You can sometimes drop hints just by the way stuff is placed on the map if the player is looking at the map closely enough. Same for hidden paths in the game itself. Although there's still sometimes an issue between what one person may deem too obscure or obvious and what another will. Some people will notice it in just the right amount of time and not have an issue and it may cause problems for others. About the only thing you can do to avoid this is to make everything easy to find laugh new

This may pose an issue in my current hack. I'd like to make a full hack eventually but for now I'm learning all I can to refine my one room hack. This poses the issue of space. I've taken a big area, one I could do something quite fascinating with but have restrained it to be completed in just that one room, so It's literally branched off into it's own mini subworlds. But I've done my best to make the situation adequite enough for a player to think for a moment, I mean, they don't have a whole world to explore.

[quote="Black Telomeres"]
[quote="DMantra"]
What makes good room design is unique aesthetics. [/quote]

I definitely agree with this. Doing things that the original game didn't do with tilesets is one of my major design philosophies. If the original SM did it, it's ok to use as if you have to, but what I really like to see is when a hack produces something no one else has thought of making with the same tileset the original game used. Although creating new tilesets is good too, and gives a hack a big advantage. It's just it costs more time and not everyone has the patience and desire to do it. Also, large rooms are the most fun for me, since they give an opportunity to make some really unique, impressive structure around/in the room that can be interesting just to look at as well as play through.
[/quote]

Absolutely. I often used to fantasize about being on a chozo planet, like if super metroid were properly made into the best film ever (ofcourse imagined). Before I knew about SMILE, before I knew about hacks, before I even knew about the internet, I wanted to play a perfect super metroid game, like with the best aesthetics ever. I used to like finding lush spots in the game and just stand there and absorb the surroundings. Of all the hacks I've played, I've seen some impressive structures, I mentioned yours because of the amorphous land so well conceived into a realistic alien planet. (mind you, your hack is the only one I've yet to beat on my current roster. But I will get back to it eventually.)

[quote="Black Telomeres"]
[quote="DMantra"]
it's good to give ambiguous hints with your maps, sort of indirect approaches.
 [/quote]

I agree. You can sometimes drop hints just by the way stuff is placed on the map if the player is looking at the map closely enough. Same for hidden paths in the game itself. Although there's still sometimes an issue between what one person may deem too obscure or obvious and what another will. Some people will notice it in just the right amount of time and not have an issue and it may cause problems for others. About the only thing you can do to avoid this is to make everything easy to find  :laugh:

[/quote]

This may pose an issue in my current hack. I'd like to make a full hack eventually but for now I'm learning all I can to refine my one room hack. This poses the issue of space. I've taken a big area, one I could do something quite fascinating with but have restrained it to be completed in just that one room, so It's literally branched off into it's own mini subworlds. But I've done my best to make the situation adequite enough for a player to think for a moment, I mean, they don't have a whole world to explore.

Black Telomeres

2007-12-10 04:45:26 am

Well I think you have a bit more leeway as far as how hard it is to find passages and such with a one room experimental hack, since as you said, people won't have a whole world to explore. There isn't much backtracking to annoy people there.

Also, you saw my SMILE FAQ a little ways back in the SMILE help thread, right? I assume so, but I'd just want to make sure since if you plan on making a full hack, it should help you learn stuff faster than having to learn it all on your own.

About the only other thing I'd suggest is to consider not making mockball/speedball required when you make a full hack (at least to beat the game) to reach the largest possible audience as far as people here and other places are concerned. But in the end it is your hack.

P.JMan

2007-12-10 10:46:40 am

I like Big Butts and I can not lie

Quote from ICheatAtGolf:

-Morphball mazes (As previously stated)
-Crumble block puzzles (Unless there's a clever way around them, like in legacy)
-Dead end puzzles (If you fail, tough luck, death/no more tries)
-Forced save-state abuse (SMI is an exception of this, we were warned beforehand)
-Cramped areas that leave the player unable to move very freely (fFee movement is what makes SM fun)
-Forcing players to take damage (Spikes in front of you just as you come out of a door? lame.)
-Bomb jumping
-Pitfalls after completing an extremely hard puzzle (Start over? how about no, i'll just quit.)

These shouldn't be used EXEPT for sequence breaking extra_smug

ducknerd

2007-12-11 12:47:11 am

Eschews avatars

I've been spending a fair amount of time experimenting with different styles of level design. What I believe it comes down to is smoothness of movement and 'organic' aesthetics. Lots of slopes, even useless ones, just create a better feel. For some reason, it seems to me that it's essential to the 'feel' of Metroid to be able to run directly from one door to another. Also, simple platforming never gets old. It really doesn't. Also, upward exploration makes things much more interesting, as each room gets a sort of set of stakes that mount as you make each successive jump.

What are people's thoughts on map design, though? I haven't yet quite figured out what makes a segment of the game feel too long or too short.

Cardweaver

2007-12-11 12:57:49 am

Not only slopes, but I think your logic transfers to places where people can speedboost or shinespark. People like being able to move quickly. I know that any place I can do a mockball or speedball, I will, even if it leads to certain doom.