What I'd like to see for MP3's Multiplayer.

2007-01-16 03:43:02 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

wiimote is FPS-izing Prime 3 with the setup alone.

so far the comments on FPSs on Wii aren't as encouraging as before.

i'm worried since i've never liked FPS-like games and i liked the other Primes because they happened to be different to regular FPSs.

co-op would be interesting but that's hard to pull-off correctly. it doesn't suit Metroid story-wise either so that makes it harder to implement. if there was stuff like defeating a boss with team work and specific strats, that would be fun.

Mr. Aran

2007-01-16 12:37:03 pm

everybody knows it's true

Give FPS controls to Metroid Prime and it will still be an FPA.

skunkobot

2007-01-16 03:29:07 pm

That's one thing that's always frustrated me as well.

Super Metroid essentially had the same controls as Contra, and yet no one here would say it was too much like a shooter.

The style of game is dictated by more than just the interface method.

Metroid Prime, and Echoes both did a great job of combining first person platforming (which is in and of itself quite novel) with exploration elements, and yes, first person shooter elements. But just as Super Metroid was defined by what you do with it, so were Primes 1 and 2.

Retro has proven that they understand what the Metroid game-play is about. Now they're taking that and expanding on the universe, which is something I love.

You're still a lone figure who's going to be affecting the fate of the universe. It's just that now. for the first time really, you get to see some of the universe you're saving.

Multiplayer is simply a way to enjoy the interface with others. I loved the way that the Prime games played, but the lock on system wasn't well suited to the traditional deathmatch style they chose for the multi in Echoes.

MP3 gives us a control scheme that's much more suitable for it, and I'm hoping we do get some form of multi, just to enjoy it with other at the same time.

As I've stated, I do hope they make it more specific to the style that Metroid is known for, which will also make better use of the full range of abilities that Samus and the other hunters have. To me Metroid is more about the goal oriented gaming, get X to do Y, which gets you Z to do A, etc. It's also about creative boss fights, that incorporate puzzle elements. The atmosphere of the games is what has made the titles we love most great. But changes in that will allow for versatility in the games without it being the same thing over and over and over.

I'd also say that, given Retro's reluctance to include a multi, they understand our concerns, and understand why the multi in Echoes was a failure.

I don't see why we can't hope for and expect the best of both worlds. A single player game that maintains the gameplay, and a multi that uses the new interface to enable us to enjoy the game together, ideally in a way that maintains the game play we love.

That's one thing that's always frustrated me as well.

Super Metroid essentially had the same controls as Contra, and yet no one here would say it was too much like a shooter.

The style of game is dictated by more than just the interface method.

Metroid Prime, and Echoes both did a great job of combining first person platforming (which is in and of itself quite novel) with exploration elements, and yes, first person shooter elements.  But just as Super Metroid was defined by what you do with it, so were Primes 1 and 2.

Retro has proven that they understand what the Metroid game-play is about.  Now they're taking that and expanding on the universe, which is something I love.

You're still a lone figure who's going to be affecting the fate of the universe.  It's just that now. for the first time really, you get to see some of the universe you're saving.

Multiplayer is simply a way to enjoy the interface with others.  I loved the way that the Prime games played, but the lock on system wasn't well suited to the traditional deathmatch style they chose for the multi in Echoes.

MP3 gives us a control scheme that's much more suitable for it, and I'm hoping we do get some form of multi, just to enjoy it with other at the same time.

As I've stated, I do hope they make it more specific to the style that Metroid is known for, which will also make better use of the full range of abilities that Samus and the other hunters have.  To me Metroid is more about the goal oriented gaming, get X to do Y, which gets you Z to do A, etc.  It's also about creative boss fights, that incorporate puzzle elements.  The atmosphere of the games is what has made the titles we love most great.  But changes in that will allow for versatility in the games without it being the same thing over and over and over.

I'd also say that, given Retro's reluctance to include a multi, they understand our concerns, and understand why the multi in Echoes was a failure.

I don't see why we can't hope for and expect the best of both worlds.  A single player game that maintains the gameplay, and a multi that uses the new interface to enable us to enjoy the game together, ideally in a way that maintains the game play we love.

RT-55J

2007-01-18 06:09:49 pm

Armor Guardian

Quote from skunkobot:

To me Metroid is more about the goal oriented gaming, get X to do Y, which gets you Z to do A, etc.

I thought that it was "get X to skip Y and go straight to Z."

Yoshi348

2007-01-18 06:54:31 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

That's just us.

But Metroid is about such goals being part of a veritable tangle-web of X gets Y, which increases the chances that something jumps the rails.

arkarian

2007-01-18 09:41:23 pm

red chamber dream

If Metroid were about just getting from X to Y in order to do Z, I wouldn't play it.

That's why I don't play Echoze.

Yoshi348

2007-01-19 12:52:12 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

lol, just keep reciting the purist mantras, Ark. The high enclave will let you in eventually. Rolling Eyes

13M13

2007-01-19 01:43:09 am

l'appel du vide

Quote from Arkarian:

That's why I don't play Echoze.

Ekohz don't be wanting you, boy.

UchihaSasuke

2007-01-20 01:11:57 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

Quote from Arkarian:

If Metroid were about just getting from X to Y in order to do Z, I wouldn't play it.

That's why I don't play Echoze.

i think you'll hate Prim3.

linearity is far too common in Nintendo's latest adventure games (see Zelda TP).
btw, Retro is the developer of mp3 but Nintendo controls them as much as a cowboy controls a horse.

Mr. Aran

2007-01-20 01:19:40 am

everybody knows it's true

Quote from PiccoloCube:

Quote from Arkarian:

If Metroid were about just getting from X to Y in order to do Z, I wouldn't play it.

That's why I don't play Echoze.

i think you'll hate Prim3.

linearity is far too common in Nintendo's latest adventure games (see Zelda TP).

See any 3D Zelda game.

arkarian

2007-01-20 01:48:35 pm

red chamber dream

Right, Piccolo, but we're talking about Metroid here, not Zelda. What Nintendo does with Zelda really doesn't have much to do with what they do with Metroid, especially as Retro (they still get to come up with their own ideas, you know), not Nintendo itself, develops the Prime games. Also, Nintendo has always tried to make Zelda linear; it's only by accident that they've been so Sequence Breakable (with ZM as the possible exception). Really, the linearity of Echoze isn't why I don't like it; it's more that it's just really really boring to me. I'm hoping Corruption will just be fresher in all aspects than Echoze was, particularly with the new control scheme.

skunkobot

2007-01-20 03:07:16 pm

For me what the games have lacked is good story. The story of the games thus far can be told in about 30 seconds.

They've been getting better, with Zero Mission and Fusion both providing more backstory. MP3 looks like it will help establish the back-drop against which Samus adventures unfold.

That's why I really like the idea of multiplayer as pirates or feddies. It adds to the story.

Prime Hunter

2007-01-20 04:06:34 pm

Which is the reason I proposed that if the multiplayer falls back to the standard FPS types, that should be who we can choose from. Tthe Pirates and the Federation would make perfect sense fighting their battles like that, but Samus doesn't belong in those kinds of fights. Unless they did something like Star Wars Battlefront II and made it so that Samus and the other Hunters were unlockable Heroes for whoever was doing the best. You know, make it so that only one person at a time can be them? In my mind, that would work out better in the end because it would help balance out the characters if you don't have the powerful/cheap ones around all the time.

arkarian

2007-01-20 11:40:51 pm

red chamber dream

I'd just like a solid single-player mode with a subtle story and incredible gameplay. That should be the main focus; Echoze proved that trying to split development between single- and multi-player clearly does not work very well.

skunkobot

2007-01-21 01:45:07 am

You've played Echoes multi, right?

I'd hardly say they gave up two many man hours on that...

Seriously though: The assumption always seems to be that an added multi means less time spend on the single player game. This doesn't have to be true at all. Especially considering the added dev time, there could easily be resources dedicated to multi without pulling anything from the single player campaign.

nate

2007-01-21 02:10:04 am

problem being that echoes was rushed, so every little bit could have helped.

skunkobot

2007-01-21 02:43:44 am

You're assuming that Retro and Nintendo weren't happy with the finished product.

Are there any interviews to indicate that?

(The single, not the multi...)

nate

2007-01-21 03:55:22 am

would anyone say that without getting fired?

Prime Hunter

2007-01-21 09:46:41 am

Quote from Arkarian:

I'd just like a solid single-player mode with a subtle story and incredible gameplay.

So would I, but it looks like that's not going to happen with Corruption. They've already shown us that the story is going to be taking a more active role in the game, and then there's whatever they've done with the multiplayer.

At this point, with the game coming out in a few short months most likely, Retro should have decided the final elements to be included, and they are now mostly fine tuning things and running testers through it.

If the game was originally meant to be out by now, I would imagine that they are far into their production of the game itself. It's kind of hard to add in anything at the last minute and expect it to be as good as the rest of the game that has been in development since the beginning of the production cycle. Changing anything now would set back a lot of the other elements. (Have to make sure the new thing works, doesn't mess up anything that has been fine for months, check for anything else unplanned, etc...)

Unfortunately, not every game gets the luxury of a proper development cycle like that. And it becomes fairly obvious when something like this happens. The Echoes multiplayer seems to me one of those things they decided to add in near the end, and based on the opinion of most people here, we can see it.

Think about how long it would take to create the new locations, new powerups, and anything else they did that wasn't programmed and designed for the singleplayer game. That takes a lot of time, and depending on how many developers who were taken from the single player portion of the game (If any), the focus on adding the multiplayer in takes away from both game modes in the end. (And not every company can go out and hire that many more people to create a multiplayer element to a game.) If they decide upon adding a multiplayer right off the bat, then things will end up a little better most likely because they can divide the developers at that time and prepare for how long things will take to finish. (Hopefully for Corruption, Retro decided on what the multiplayer would be like early on and managed to do this. Makes for a better production cycle in my mind if they know what they can and can't do at the beginning.)

Mind you, this is all based on my limited experience with how a game is created. In one of my classes this semester, that's what we're doing, and there is a lot of planning and only a few months of development before the final. We have certain parameters we must follow, and have either a video demo or a single level of our game completed that shows every aspect of the gameplay. This is all to be done by the end of April... Only about THREE months from now, and that's not a lot of time when 5 people have to create EVERYTHING in the game and make sure it works like we want it to. (And this is only a 2D Flash game.) Depending on how things go at Mid-Terms, either our game gets scrapped or else a few more people will be brought into our team if the game they are working on doesn't pass into production. (7 Teams total, and I think only 4 or 5 games continue on.)

Multiply that by how much is in a real game, and think about how long these things take. Especially when it's a 3D game like Metroid, where Nintendo will make sure they are as happy with it as possible before sending it out. (Isn't the development team at Retro small when compared to a lot of other ones as well?)

Heh... sorry for the huge wall of text, but over the last year and a half I've gained a much larger respect for great game developers when I realize just HOW MUCH needs to be done in a short amount of time, especially if they are a small group of people.

Edit: I've also come to realize how hard it is to be both a gamer and a game developer. (Well, artist/animator once I get there.) There's so many things I WOULD LIKE to see in a game, but it's starting to get to the point where I am understanding just how much of it WILL end up in the final game...

[quote="Arkarian"]I'd just like a solid single-player mode with a subtle story and incredible gameplay.[/quote]
So would I, but it looks like that's not going to happen with Corruption. They've already shown us that the story is going to be taking a more active role in the game, and then there's whatever they've done with the multiplayer.

At this point, with the game coming out in a few short months most likely, Retro should have decided the final elements to be included, and they are now mostly fine tuning things and running testers through it.

If the game was originally meant to be out by now, I would imagine that they are far into their production of the game itself. It's kind of hard to add in anything at the last minute and expect it to be as good as the rest of the game that has been in development since the beginning of the production cycle. Changing anything now would set back a lot of the other elements. (Have to make sure the new thing works, doesn't mess up anything that has been fine for months, check for anything else unplanned, etc...)

Unfortunately, not every game gets the luxury of a proper development cycle like that. And it becomes fairly obvious when something like this happens. The Echoes multiplayer seems to me one of those things they decided to add in near the end, and based on the opinion of most people here, we can see it.

Think about how long it would take to create the new locations, new powerups, and anything else they did that wasn't programmed and designed for the singleplayer game. That takes a lot of time, and depending on how many developers who were taken from the single player portion of the game (If any), the focus on adding the multiplayer in takes away from both game modes in the end. (And not every company can go out and hire that many more people to create a multiplayer element to a game.) If they decide upon adding a multiplayer right off the bat, then things will end up a little better most likely because they can divide the developers at that time and prepare for how long things will take to finish. (Hopefully for Corruption, Retro decided on what the multiplayer would be like early on and managed to do this. Makes for a better production cycle in my mind if they know what they can and can't do at the beginning.)

Mind you, this is all based on my limited experience with how a game is created. In one of my classes this semester, that's what we're doing, and there is a lot of planning and only a few months of development before the final. We have certain parameters we must follow, and have either a video demo or a single level of our game completed that shows every aspect of the gameplay. This is all to be done by the end of April... Only about THREE months from now, and that's not a lot of time when 5 people have to create EVERYTHING in the game and make sure it works like we want it to. (And this is only a 2D Flash game.) Depending on how things go at Mid-Terms, either our game gets scrapped or else a few more people will be brought into our team if the game they are working on doesn't pass into production. (7 Teams total, and I think only 4 or 5 games continue on.)

Multiply that by how much is in a real game, and think about how long these things take. Especially when it's a 3D game like Metroid, where Nintendo will make sure they are as happy with it as possible before sending it out. (Isn't the development team at Retro small when compared to a lot of other ones as well?)

[size=9px]Heh... sorry for the huge wall of text, but over the last year and a half I've gained a much larger respect for great game developers when I realize just HOW MUCH needs to be done in a short amount of time, especially if they are a small group of people.[/size]

Edit: I've also come to realize how hard it is to be both a gamer and a game developer. (Well, artist/animator once I get there.) There's so many things I WOULD LIKE to see in a game, but it's starting to get to the point where I am understanding just how much of it WILL end up in the final game...

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2007-01-21 03:02:38 pm

didnt they state early on that they didnt have multiplayer going?

if they wren't lying, that means that if there is multiplayer, it is being added in at the last minute.

Prime Hunter

2007-01-21 04:54:55 pm

I honestly couldn't remember earlier today. But now that you mention it, isn't that one of the things they said when we found out the game was being pushed off of the launch list a few months back? That some sort of multiplayer aspect was being added to the game along with some fine tuning of game elements? (Like the aiming modes, for example.)

Or am I just really mixed up on what we've heard about Corruption at this time?

skunkobot

2007-01-21 05:50:26 pm

I think you're mixed up.

From what I recall of interviews and news releases, we haven't really been given a proper reason.

As far as multi goes, once again if I remember correctly, the most we've ever gotten as far as solid word goes is that they "might" do something with WiiConnect24.

=Prime Killer=

2007-01-26 03:29:18 pm

MP2 multi wasn't THAT bad. I had some nice 1v1 matches with a friend that were fun.
MP3 is the reason I would get a Wii. A co-op mode would be nice. Then again, unless Nintendo has a headsite/mic in mind, then it would be a little frustrating not being able to communicate to your partner, unless you both knew the game well.

Anyway, any Multiplayer for MP3 would be nice for a while...if there were online deathmatches, I'm there.

13M13

2007-01-26 07:20:51 pm

l'appel du vide

I hope they include multiplayer just to piss everyone off.