What do people like in hacks?

2008-12-31 04:01:53 pm

...

Most of that stuff would require ASM. And a room with no platforms doesn't exactly show off very good level design. However, I agree with you about needing more nonlinear hacks, that is why I try to make mine as nonlinear as possible, with the exception of my Fusion hacks, as the system makes it difficult to implement sequence breaking.

MetroidMst

2008-12-31 04:53:46 pm

Go ahead. Stare.

I don't agree with needing a story. Metroid has never been about telling a story, it's main draw has easily been gameplay. A great story gets ruined by horrible gameplay, a bad story/no story is helped tremedously by great gameplay. Super Metroid's whole story was "retrieve baby metroid," and many consider it to be one of the top-5 all time games.

Gameplay makes great games. Story is not worthless however, as it can definitely enhance the gaming experience and add a lot to it, but I disagree with it being the end-all of game making.

Zeku

2008-12-31 08:20:46 pm

I guess I should have been more clear: without the 'find baby metroid' story, SM would have been fairly bizarre and pointless. Don't forget that the story consisted of far more than that, because it took all the lore of the first two games, and then made a breathtaking entrance with all of it in tow.

As children, things like that don't matter. I can just say 'ooh cool stuff, I'm going to explore it,' and fill in the details with the imagination, but as an adult, I need that 'what am I doing here, anyway?' (Please don't take this personally, I realize my preferences are not the same as others, and I'm not insulting anyone.)

Your next response is, well what about the original metroid: it didn't have a real story! That's a good point, but a few things. Most important, some small story was provided via the instruction manual, and that was pretty good back then. Our standards were different. We were also all very young, and zelda1 was like heaven on earth. I still remember the ineffable giddiness I felt upon holding that golden instruction manual in my hands.

Think about the PC game Doom, the game with no story. I personally call it the best game ever made. So is that hypocrisy? No, in that game, the action and environment itself tells a story, and it's a fantastic story. You can tell your own story this way, it doesn't have to be complex. Less is more. Just one amazing plot point is all that matters. Just one thing that makes you say 'wtf? this is awesome' is all that's needed. For Doom it was being stranded alone on a moon base. For metroid 3 it was following Ridley back to a legendary location, one buried deep in the fears and pleasures of our own personal past.

Your hacks need that same thing. That one little detail that says "holy crap I have to see what's next, I have to see where this one goes."

I guess I should have been more clear:  without the 'find baby metroid' story, SM would have been fairly bizarre and pointless.  Don't forget that the story consisted of far more than that, because it took all the lore of the first two games, and then made a breathtaking entrance with all of it in tow.

As children, things like that don't matter.  I can just say 'ooh cool stuff, I'm going to explore it,' and fill in the details with the imagination, but as an adult, I need that 'what am I doing here, anyway?'  (Please don't take this personally, I realize my preferences are not the same as others, and I'm not insulting anyone.)

Your next response is, well what about the original metroid:  it didn't have a real story!  That's a good point, but a few things.  Most important, some small story was provided via the instruction manual, and that was pretty good back then.  Our standards were different.  We were also all very young, and zelda1 was like heaven on earth.  I still remember the ineffable giddiness I felt upon holding that golden instruction manual in my hands.

Think about the PC game Doom, the game with no story.  I personally call it the best game ever made.  So is that hypocrisy?  No, in that game, the action and environment itself tells a story, and it's a fantastic story.  You can tell your own story this way, it doesn't have to be complex.  Less is more.  Just one amazing plot point is all that matters.  Just one thing that makes you say 'wtf? this is awesome' is all that's needed.  For Doom it was being stranded alone on a moon base.  For metroid 3 it was following Ridley back to a legendary location, one buried deep in the fears and pleasures of our own personal past.

Your hacks need that same thing.  That one little detail that says "holy crap I have to see what's next, I have to see where this one goes."

Bioniclegenius

2008-12-31 08:27:27 pm

Fear Me! (Or else...)

SM was also greatly helped in the way that just when you started getting used to it, and even - dare I say it? - bored a little, a new item popped up, and opened up huge new ways you could go, or a secret passage that you didn't notice before. There was always something to keep you going, and they were scarce enough to be very tantalizing. After you got to the planet with the goal of finding baby metroid, a little ways in, your goal shifted. You thought you had eradicated all the Space Pirates, and now you're trying to destroy them, and find the items, and explore Zebes, as well as finding the baby metroid. It wasn't the main goal of the game the whole way through, and most of the time, I didn't even think of the game as a mission just to find the baby metroid. I forgot that after I escaped Ceres, and didn't think of it again until the Mocktroids in Maridia. Even they didn't really remind me, because they weren't metroids. The first real reminder of it was in the room after Ridley, and in Tourian. After those, the game was pretty much over.

MetroidMst

2008-12-31 08:40:03 pm

Go ahead. Stare.

No offense taken. I guess I just have an active imagination, as I prefer to fill in blank spots myself instead of being told them. It makes the game feel like I'm taking part in it a little bit. I didn't mean to sound like a story was completely unimportant, as a good one can really help a game along. I just believe fun gameplay is much more vital to enjoy the game.

Bloodsonic

2008-12-31 09:08:44 pm

Zeku:
not many hacks have a story. I'd rather actually not have to read some bullshit about some space station and fly off to ceres and just start in a planet and play a wicked hack.
and if you look at the general metroid story,
1.samus lands on planet.
2.samus does something important ( kill metroids, kill MB, etc.)
3.boom.
so why are you going to bother caring about a story? And not only that, but metroid is full of plotholes, and these are hacks.Not official metroid games.

to get a plot twisting story in a hack would require quite a bit of ASM anyways, and most people with the knowledge to do ASM would most likely focus on something that would add to the gameplay, like new power ups, some new enemies,or some custom BTS to enhance the terrain, because those are the things that draw most hack-players in.

Zeku

2009-01-01 06:04:31 am

It never really entered into my mind to play a game like Metroid for it's gameplay. When I want to be challenged, I play street fighter, warcraft pvp, strategy games, and real time strategy games. While I respect your opinion blood, and I understand that gameplay is a critical factor, it's not really a priority for me. We're both entitled to our opinion, which is what is being requested here.

I would shudder to think that 'visiting Ceres spacestation' would be considered a plot point. It's not, and if you think of that as plot, you're not receiving as much creative satisfaction as you should be.

Story is the ship descending quietly into a rainstorm.
Story is when you return to an area and the lights are unexpectedly on.
Story is when our assumptions are challenged.
Story is when we're actually scared.
Story is when something about an area feels out of place.
Story is when our actions have an effect on the world.
Story is when we realize that we are not the only will affecting the world around us.

It never really entered into my mind to play a game like Metroid for it's gameplay.  When I want to be challenged, I play street fighter, warcraft pvp, strategy games, and real time strategy games.  While I respect your opinion blood, and I understand that gameplay is a critical factor, it's not really a priority for me.  We're both entitled to our opinion, which is what is being requested here.

I would shudder to think that 'visiting Ceres spacestation' would be considered a plot point.  It's not, and if you think of that as plot, you're not receiving as much creative satisfaction as you should be.

Story is the ship descending quietly into a rainstorm.
Story is when you return to an area and the lights are unexpectedly on.
Story is when our assumptions are challenged.
Story is when we're actually scared.
Story is when something about an area feels out of place.
Story is when our actions have an effect on the world.
Story is when we realize that we are not the only will affecting the world around us.

MetroidMst

2009-01-01 01:00:12 pm

Go ahead. Stare.

Quote from Zeku:

Story is when you return to an area and the lights are unexpectedly on.
Story is when we're actually scared.
Story is when something about an area feels out of place.

I would argue that these are more about atmosphere and game design. The rest are good points, but my opinion is story cannot carry a game if it is unbearable to play. We all have our own opinions, and I respect yours, I just don't agree with it completely.

Quietus

2009-01-01 01:46:53 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Story, like everything else, in my opinion, plays second fiddle to gameplay. If your game isn't fun, then no matter how good your story is, and no matter how good the graphics or whatever are, it all counts for nothing, because people just won't play it.

That's why I'd agree with you about Doom. It doesn't need a great story, and it's graphics are terrible, relatively speaking, but the fact that it is so fun makes you able to go back and play it again and again.

Sirich

2009-01-05 09:45:19 pm

RAHRAGARAHA!

I like Exploration, Scenery, and Puzzles, Those are the Biggest points in a hack I think.
And also some of the Easy Tricks, like Pseudo Spring Ball, or Walljumping, And save the Harder Tricks for 100%.
Not Something like an Underwater boss fight without Grav suit, or Spikes out the Wazoo.

Opium

2009-01-06 12:50:48 pm

Quote from Quietus:

Story, like everything else, in my opinion, plays second fiddle to gameplay. If your game isn't fun, then no matter how good your story is, and no matter how good the graphics or whatever are, it all counts for nothing, because people just won't play it.

That's why I'd agree with you about Doom. It doesn't need a great story, and it's graphics are terrible, relatively speaking, but the fact that it is so fun makes you able to go back and play it again and again.

I guess I should recant what I said about how important story is to me because I'm kinda forgetting that we're talking about hacks here. Story is much less important to me in a hack because the story is mostly told already anyways. People have added to it by adding lore and changing some of the themes in each area, but the premise or main goal doesn't feel all that different.

Bloodsonic

2009-01-06 04:01:18 pm

Quote from Quietus:

That's why I'd agree with you about Doom. It doesn't need a great story, and it's graphics are terrible, relatively speaking, but the fact that it is so fun makes you able to go back and play it again and again.

What

Quietus

2009-01-06 05:37:33 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Tut, tut at your one-word replies. Razz

I stated that, relatively speaking, as in compared to games released today, its graphics are terrible, but this is disregarded, since the game is so much fun to play anyway. Also, if you use jDoom or the like, it doesn't even look that bad any more. Very Happy

Zhs2

2009-01-06 05:52:41 pm

Yo.

I think he was trying to point out that there are indeed games with worse graphics to them. After all, I don't think the Cyberdemon himself would have made many 6-year-olds piss their pants when they sighted one if he didn't have his distinctive sounds and appearance. Even Imps managed a daunting image, eh wot? [/Doom fan ranting] Razz

GF_Kennon

2009-01-06 06:16:25 pm

Destroyer of Pirates

that cyberdemon's sounds used to scare the shit out of me.

anyway what i like most in hacks are new GFX, it just makes it feel like a new game