trying 0%

2010-07-03 12:04:26 pm

BioSpark stated he would only start over every five attempts or so, and that's with ~15-60 seconds (depending on whether he returns to the save before attempting the 0% trick) between the start of the segment at the beginning of the sector and the place where you have to perform this ungodly hard trick. As for "serious" SS times and 0% SS, there are currently two SS 22% Metroid Prime runs on SDA, and I remember at least one of them to spend many minutes at Vent Shaft - sure, SDA standards have increased since then, but I don't think this run would be rejected today because of that - it's simply a hard thing to do on top of everything else that comes with running MP low% single-segmented, and that's for a trick that was discovered and performed plenty of times in real-time compared to what's necessary for 0% in Fusion.

Using the 1% ending as the new goal would remove 1% from the low% category - the reason it's different is that the possibility of 0% in real-time exists only in theory, but you can't submit segmented 1% runs because it's obsolete as the lowest percentage, so the category is effectively dead. See earlier posts for more in-depth thoughts on this.

ZM doesn't share Fusion's very specific, unique and, to my knowledge, unprecedented problem - assuming you're referring to the luckfest that is 9% Hard Zeebetites, 9% Hard is only possible in the EU version, and there are no runs for it, so the 10% Hard is fine since you can't get any lower on the version used for that run. While there's no real reason against having 15% runs, they're simply not necessary since the problem I'm trying to circumvent in Fusion isn't present in ZM.

BioSpark stated he would only start over every five attempts or so, and that's with ~15-60 seconds (depending on whether he returns to the save before attempting the 0% trick) between the start of the segment at the beginning of the sector and the place where you have to perform this ungodly hard trick. As for "serious" SS times and 0% SS, there are currently two SS 22% Metroid Prime runs on SDA, and I remember at least one of them to spend many minutes at Vent Shaft - sure, SDA standards have increased since then, but I don't think this run would be rejected today because of that - it's simply a hard thing to do on top of everything else that comes with running MP low% single-segmented, and that's for a trick that was discovered and performed plenty of times in real-time compared to what's necessary for 0% in Fusion.

Using the 1% ending as the new goal would remove 1% from the low% category - the reason it's different is that the possibility of 0% in real-time exists only in theory, but you can't submit segmented 1% runs because it's obsolete as the lowest percentage, so the category is effectively dead. See earlier posts for more in-depth thoughts on this.

ZM doesn't share Fusion's very specific, unique and, to my knowledge, unprecedented problem - assuming you're referring to the luckfest that is 9% Hard Zeebetites, 9% Hard is only possible in the EU version, and there are no runs for it, so the 10% Hard is fine since you can't get any lower on the version used for that run. While there's no real reason against having 15% runs, they're simply not necessary since the problem I'm trying to circumvent in Fusion isn't present in ZM.

BioSpark

2010-07-03 12:11:55 pm

actually i could submit a segmented 1% run if i wanted to, because it's still a valid category. not until someone actually does 0% in a speedrun would it be obsolete. also i guarantee you that 0% ss will never be done. if i do ever get 0%, it's probably going to take thousands of tries.

Serris

2010-07-03 12:19:17 pm

Could you? The category hasn't been established yet, and I don't think there has ever been a run that didn't get the lowest known percentage at the time of submission. That's what I mean by striking a balance between what makes sense and what's feasible - if there was no existing low% run at all, would you be able to submit a 1% run just because you were unable to get 0%?

BioSpark

2010-07-03 12:20:11 pm

it has never been done before on console, so yes they'd accept a 1% run.

Serris

2010-07-03 12:26:24 pm

Assuming that's true, if you submitted a segmented 0% run to stand next to the 1% SS run, would you be able to submit 1% SS improvements in completion-time only, because it's a pre-established category, even though the segmented 0% run next to it proves 0% is humanly possible?

BioSpark

Edit history:

BioSpark: 2010-07-03 12:31:46 pm

2010-07-03 12:31:02 pm

yes, 1% ss would still be a valid category. it would be way way harder to get 0% in a ss, so technically the lowest you can get in a ss is 1%. so basically i can be considered impossible to get 0% in a ss. though if someone did submit a 0% ss (no one ever will), it would obsolete it.

Kharay1977

Edit history:

Kharay1977: 2010-07-03 12:34:15 pm

2010-07-03 12:33:01 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

though if someone did submit a 0% ss (no one ever will), it would obsolete it.

For very good reasons.

Serris

2010-07-03 12:42:56 pm

Assuming you're right about what you said, it would work, but it would also be hard to defend in a discussion - the 1% ending approach would be easier and save SDA unnecessary contradictions category-wise.

It all depends on what's considered feasible - if someone submitted a 2-, 5- or even 10-hour 0% SS run that spends most of the time attempting the 0% trick but features excellent gameplay throughout the rest of the game, would you reject it?

Kharay1977

2010-07-03 12:49:00 pm

*sigh*

BioSpark

2010-07-03 12:49:30 pm

i would probably reject it. however, that's never going to happen. even if someone pulled off 0% in a ss, it's very likely they'd die before the end of the game.

also i'm not sure what you mean about the 1% ending. i don't think people really care about what the ending screen looks like.

Kharay1977

2010-07-03 12:55:07 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

i don't think people really care about what the ending screen looks like.

BioSpark

2010-07-03 12:57:34 pm

except for the ending time, of course.

Prime Hunter

2010-07-03 12:57:39 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

not until someone actually does 0% in a speedrun would it be obsolete.

That was what I was trying to get across in my post for both segmented and SS runs. A 0% segmented run would only make 1% segmented obsolete, not 1% SS as well. Until a 0% SS is done (if ever) 1% still stands as the best there is in the SS department. Even with the knowledge that 0% is possible in some form, until somebody can do it with skill alone 1% is still technically the lowest we can go with Fusion.

As far as my comment on ZM is concerned, I was trying to point out that even though the game itself set an arbitrary goal of 15% with ending pictures and such, there are no 15% runs specifically on SDA, only that 10% hard one. So just because the game itself sets a goal doesn't mean that's what is automatically going to be considered as a speedrunning category. That's what I meant with the fact that even though the JP version of Fusion has a goal of 1% it doesn't mean we're forced to have that as a category.

But what do I know? I'm not involved with SDA whatsoever so it's their call in the end.

[quote="BioSpark"][i][b]not until someone actually does 0% in a speedrun would it be obsolete.[/b][/i][/quote]
That was what I was trying to get across in my post for both segmented and SS runs. A 0% segmented run would only make 1% segmented obsolete, not 1% SS as well. Until a 0% SS is done (if ever) 1% still stands as the best there is in the SS department. Even with the knowledge that 0% is possible in some form, until somebody can do it with skill alone 1% is still [i]technically[/i] the lowest we can go with Fusion.

As far as my comment on ZM is concerned, I was trying to point out that even though the game itself set an arbitrary goal of 15% with ending pictures and such, there are no 15% runs specifically on SDA, only that 10% hard one. So just because the game itself sets a goal doesn't mean that's what is automatically going to be considered as a speedrunning category. That's what I meant with the fact that even though the JP version of Fusion has a goal of 1% it doesn't mean we're forced to have that as a category.

But what do I know? I'm not involved with SDA whatsoever so it's their call in the end.

BioSpark

2010-07-03 12:59:05 pm

i'm not even sure if getting 1% is the only way to get that ending screen on the japanese version. i'll have to check.

Kharay1977

Edit history:

Kharay1977: 2010-07-03 01:46:45 pm

Kharay1977: 2010-07-03 01:06:29 pm

2010-07-03 01:00:55 pm

Quote from Prime Hunter:

A 0% segmented run would only make 1% segmented obsolete, not 1% SS as well.

In essence part of what I was trying to get across as well.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

until somebody can do it with skill alone

For a long while people thought 21% MP1 impossible to do.

Quote from BioSpark:

except for the ending time, of course.

Exactly my point. The accomplishment for speedrunners is in the goal they set out to accomplish, not the ending screen of the game. Which was what I was trying to get across and still remains what I believe in - the goal of low% is the lowest percentage possible.

Serris

2010-07-03 01:28:18 pm

You would reject it? That's harsh. About whether it will ever happen or they die before the end of the game, well, that's pure speculation. If they get past the 0% trick, they can surely get past the rest of the game.

The ending screen would simply be a means to establish a 1% category - it's a goal set by the game just like finishing the game at all is the goal for any%.

Well, unless an SDA official refutes what you said, I have nothing more to add. Thanks for the discussion.

BioSpark

2010-07-03 02:03:15 pm

Quote from Serris:

If they get past the 0% trick, they can surely get past the rest of the game.

have you tried doing a 1% ss? just because you can do one really hard trick doesn't mean you'll easily finish the game. in fact i've made about ten 1% ss attempts for far and i haven't survived though any.

Serris

2010-07-03 02:41:51 pm

No, I haven't tried doing a 1% SS, nor did I say it would be easy, just that there's no reason to consider it impossible for someone to beat the game after the 0% trick just because it's unlikely. 1% SS has been done before, and you would probably be playing it more safely after performing the 0% trick than you would in a 1% run. If you care about attempting the 0% trick until you succeed, chances are you're a skilled Fusion runner who's capable of making it through the rest of the game. There's no reason to expect anyone to succeed after only ten tries, it's all about tenacity etc. - but it's not like you need me to tell you that. For the record, it took Dragondarch 53 tries, and he seems to have played it more safely than you do.

BioSpark

2010-07-03 02:53:55 pm

well this is all irrelevant because 0% ss will never be done. >_>

Serris

2010-07-03 02:57:22 pm

Okay then. D:

Kharay1977

2010-07-03 03:14:58 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

well this is all irrelevant because 0% ss will never be done. >_>

Like 21% MP1 wouldn't? ;) Maybe we can learn something from how it's done in the TAS run.

http://www.tasvideos.org/1512S.html

BioSpark

2010-07-03 03:23:07 pm

that was like a 30 hour run though, with multiple breaks.

there's not much to learn from the tas. basically if someone does it, they have to be near perfect.

Kharay1977

2010-07-03 03:45:24 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

that was like a 30 hour run though, with multiple breaks.

28 hours. That's not the point though. The point was... in the end, it actually was accomplished. Next time, it'll be faster. After that even faster still.

Quote from BioSpark:

there's not much to learn from the tas. basically if someone does it, they have to be near perfect.

Most important thing to learn from the TAS is positioning, I'd say. And, they'd have to be damned near perfect indeed, judging from the TAS author's comments.

BioSpark

2010-07-03 04:16:46 pm

did you know that i did the 100% tas? i am quite aware of the trick. and i'm pretty sure i've got my strategy set for trying it in real time. it's just going to take many many tries.

Kharay1977

2010-07-03 04:21:50 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

i am quite aware of the trick.

I never meant to imply you didn't. If I at any time did by accident, I apologize. I was speaking in general terms.

Quote from BioSpark:

it's just going to take many many tries.

Obviously. But, you know. The thing to remember there is, with each try and with each successful attempt, it becomes easier and easier to repeat. Which is why I am completely confident that a 0% IS humanly possible, outside of the realm of TAS. It will simply require the consorted efforts of a few dedicated and experienced Fusion players.