TLDR on timing methods

2013-05-14 07:20:42 pm

So, SRL leaderboards are around the corner. The leaderboards for fusion and prime will certainly use realtime to discourage ties, but MZM is in the unusual position of having an accurate ingame timer, leaving it essentially up to us to decided how to time the game. I have no doubt that if the community was polled today they would choose gametime. But I'm relatively new to speedrunning, and SRL has always been the norm to me, so I'm kind of naturally inclined towards RTA. Anyway I think there's some discussion to be had about the pros and cons of each, so I did what any decent person would do and made a thread.

Points for RTA:

-Internal consistency. This is the main issue here: the optimal 100% route is different for gametime than it is for RTA. that means the 'correct' route for races is different than it is for leaderboard runs (on at least two occasions I've narrowly beaten kirby in a race but had a slower gametime due to early/late kraid cleanup).

-Consistency with other games. This is a minor point but I'll mention it anyway. Also, do any of you guys get annoyed at having splits but then having to wait to see if the run is a PB or not? I do.

-Pausing strats. Not saying there's anything wrong with pause buffering, but I think it should be taken into account by the timer.

Thread title:

So, SRL leaderboards are around the corner. The leaderboards for fusion and prime will certainly use realtime to discourage ties, but MZM is in the unusual position of having an accurate ingame timer, leaving it essentially up to us to decided how to time the game. I have no doubt that if the community was polled today they would choose gametime. But I'm relatively new to speedrunning, and SRL has always been the norm to me, so I'm kind of naturally inclined towards RTA. Anyway I think there's some discussion to be had about the pros and cons of each, so I did what any decent person would do and made a thread.

Points for RTA:

-Internal consistency. This is the main issue here: the optimal 100% route is different for gametime than it is for RTA. that means the 'correct' route for races is different than it is for leaderboard runs (on at least two occasions I've narrowly beaten kirby in a race but had a slower gametime due to early/late kraid cleanup).

-Consistency with other games. This is a minor point but I'll mention it anyway. Also, do any of you guys get annoyed at having splits but then having to wait to see if the run is a PB or not? I do.

-Pausing strats. Not saying there's anything wrong with pause buffering, but I think it should be taken into account by the timer.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-05-14 10:21:34 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-05-14 10:20:54 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-05-14 10:18:16 pm

2013-05-14 10:17:41 pm

Random point but i'd still say in-game can still be encouraged for fusion/prime since it's still very consistent, it's VERY SIMPLE, it's a kind of the game's "official time", and all the routes are optimized for in-game time. Especially for fusion 100%, since the counter-clockwise route flows much better and saves significant in-game time, but it's a tiny bit slower in RTA time. I can understand the tie issue, but honestly the ties aren't even that much of an issue since there aren't many in the first place. So I still think we can argue for in-game time for fusion/primes

As for ZM, as you'd probably expect, I'm personally inclined towards in-game than RTA, but there are points for both.

Points for In-Game:

-Text Scrolling. Much more of an issue for fusion than zero mission, and ZM's is very minimal, but it's there. Nobody wants to bother with optimizing that since it's stupid.

-The game itself encourages speedrunning, and it has a time attack mode. It would make sense to match with the game's system of timing a speedrun, since the timer is consistent and it works

Point for RTA:

-Pretty much the internal consistency that mobiusman mentioned. To add on to that, I think it's more of an issue for ZM than prime/fusion, as ZM is far more inconsistent with in-game vs. RTA due to route differences and extra door transitions (fusion doesn't have the various routes that zm has, and primes' RTA time outside of in-game is basically just textboxes & cutscenes)

Kinda something to consider: Extra cutscenes & maps. With RTA timing, you are penalized a lot more for missing a map skip (chozodia or ridley), or doing early brinstar cleanup due to it showing you the map, or doing kraid first in any% because of the extra cutscene ~~(but its jagger% so who cares if he's penalized)~~. You're also penalized more for getting any major upgrades in any category not named 100%. It probably comes down to whether you want these bigger penalties or not; I personally think they're silly, as the in-game penalty for getting an upgrade (like charge beam) is already a few seconds, but regardless it's worth discussing.

Random point but i'd still say in-game can still be encouraged for fusion/prime since it's still very consistent, it's VERY SIMPLE, it's a kind of the game's "official time", and all the routes are optimized for in-game time. Especially for fusion 100%, since the counter-clockwise route flows much better and saves [b]significant [/b]in-game time, but it's a tiny bit slower in RTA time. I can understand the tie issue, but honestly the ties aren't even that much of an issue since there aren't many in the first place. So I still think we can argue for in-game time for fusion/primes

As for ZM, as you'd probably expect, I'm personally inclined towards in-game than RTA, but there are points for both.

Points for In-Game:

-Text Scrolling. Much more of an issue for fusion than zero mission, and ZM's is very minimal, but it's there. Nobody wants to bother with optimizing that since it's stupid.

-The game itself encourages speedrunning, and it has a time attack mode. It would make sense to match with the game's system of timing a speedrun, since the timer is consistent and it works

Point for RTA:

-Pretty much the internal consistency that mobiusman mentioned. To add on to that, I think it's more of an issue for ZM than prime/fusion, as ZM is far more inconsistent with in-game vs. RTA due to route differences and extra door transitions (fusion doesn't have the various routes that zm has, and primes' RTA time outside of in-game is basically just textboxes & cutscenes)

Kinda something to consider: Extra cutscenes & maps. With RTA timing, you are penalized a lot more for missing a map skip (chozodia or ridley), or doing early brinstar cleanup due to it showing you the map, or doing kraid first in any% because of the extra cutscene [s](but its jagger% so who cares if he's penalized)[/s]. You're also penalized more for getting any major upgrades in any category not named 100%. It probably comes down to whether you want these bigger penalties or not; I personally think they're silly, as the in-game penalty for getting an upgrade (like charge beam) is already a few seconds, but regardless it's worth discussing.

Dragonfangs

2013-05-15 10:40:24 am

I'm pretty torn on this issue. The TAS I'm currently working on will aim for fastest RTA, but that's only because it forces me to deal with luck in a more aesthetically pleasing and sometimes more technically interesting way.

The route differences Mobius mentions are pretty small (less than 15 seconds over the entire run), but very real.

I would honestly prefer RTA just so Pause Buffering has a legitimate cost. It's pretty ridiculous that it's free added precision right now.

Dragondarch

2013-05-15 12:17:19 pm

Personally, I'm inclined to lean toward In-Game. It's been the norm for...how long now? It's also the ONLY Metroid game that displays seconds. In addition, I've never minded waiting to see my in-game time, but that's mostly from me feeling I MUST sit through the credits of any new PB I get. Also, what Kirby mentioned.

As for Pause buffering: I personally don't use it (man mode :Kappa:), but it's a legit tactic, and no one is excluded from using it. Whether it's "free" precision or not I don't feel matters. Also, how many places is pause buffering actually useful? I can only think of one or two.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-05-15 02:01:36 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-05-15 01:33:29 pm

2013-05-15 01:22:15 pm

I can understand the point about pause buffering not being penalized, but at least in 100%, I can only think of around 3 locations where it's useful (sparking for e-tank after suit back, norfair shine charge above hijump, and escape ballspark). It really shouldn't add up to more than around 5-10 seconds in RTA time, which is roughly the same issue as the routing times between RTA and in-game. I guess I just don't see it as much of an issue since I only pause buffer for two very minor spots :P

I personally think it's more of an issue to penalize the things I mentioned above even more in RTA than already in-game time, but that's just me. Kinda just repeating myself here though :P

EDIT: Another point for in-game time is the fact that it's a handheld system. The game times your run for you, and when you're playing the game, you're not always going to have some kind of timer next to you; it's honestly very inconvenient to have to manually time it. Coming from a speedrunner who speedruns kirby games on the DS, it's very nice to not have to rely on a computer to keep track of time for me, and for people who don't really record, it's very convenient for them as well since they can go for a personal best on their actual portable system or something.

It's a somewhat minor point, and yeah it doesn't really affect people who use emulator, but it is definitely convenient as I can speak from experience with doing speedruns of kirby super star ultra that has in-game timer for arena & true arena.

I can understand the point about pause buffering not being penalized, but at least in 100%, I can only think of around 3 locations where it's useful (sparking for e-tank after suit back, norfair shine charge above hijump, and escape ballspark). It really shouldn't add up to more than around 5-10 seconds in RTA time, which is roughly the same issue as the routing times between RTA and in-game. I guess I just don't see it as much of an issue since I only pause buffer for two very minor spots :P

I personally think it's more of an issue to penalize the things I mentioned above even more in RTA than already in-game time, but that's just me. Kinda just repeating myself here though :P

EDIT: Another point for in-game time is the fact that it's a handheld system. The game times your run for you, and when you're playing the game, you're not always going to have some kind of timer next to you; it's honestly very inconvenient to have to manually time it. Coming from a speedrunner who speedruns kirby games on the DS, it's very nice to not have to rely on a computer to keep track of time for me, and for people who don't really record, it's very convenient for them as well since they can go for a personal best on their actual portable system or something.

It's a somewhat minor point, and yeah it doesn't really affect people who use emulator, but it is definitely convenient as I can speak from experience with doing speedruns of kirby super star ultra that has in-game timer for arena & true arena.

Mobiusman

2013-05-15 03:43:49 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

EDIT: Another point for in-game time is the fact that it's a handheld system. The game times your run for you, and when you're playing the game, you're not always going to have some kind of timer next to you; it's honestly very inconvenient to have to manually time it. Coming from a speedrunner who speedruns kirby games on the DS, it's very nice to not have to rely on a computer to keep track of time for me, and for people who don't really record, it's very convenient for them as well since they can go for a personal best on their actual portable system or something.

It's a somewhat minor point, and yeah it doesn't really affect people who use emulator, but it is definitely convenient as I can speak from experience with doing speedruns of kirby super star ultra that has in-game timer for arena & true arena.

Don't get me wrong, I love the convenience of not having to use a timer. Sometimes I sit down with a timer for a few runs, then just stop using it because I feel lazy and know that the game will do the work for me. But the standard SRL is trying to set for speedruns is that they should be recorded, and I think it's much more likely they're going to want a case like MZM to be in line with that rather than an exception.

It's interesting, I feel like some people approach this question from the position "we need a good reason to not use gametime" whereas my position is "we need a good reason to not use realtime". I guess it's a philosophical difference :p

[quote="kirbymastah"]EDIT: Another point for in-game time is the fact that it's a handheld system. The game times your run for you, and when you're playing the game, you're not always going to have some kind of timer next to you; it's honestly very inconvenient to have to manually time it. Coming from a speedrunner who speedruns kirby games on the DS, it's very nice to not have to rely on a computer to keep track of time for me, and for people who don't really record, it's very convenient for them as well since they can go for a personal best on their actual portable system or something.

It's a somewhat minor point, and yeah it doesn't really affect people who use emulator, but it is definitely convenient as I can speak from experience with doing speedruns of kirby super star ultra that has in-game timer for arena & true arena.[/quote]
Don't get me wrong, I love the convenience of not having to use a timer. Sometimes I sit down with a timer for a few runs, then just stop using it because I feel lazy and know that the game will do the work for me. But the standard SRL is trying to set for speedruns is that they should be recorded, and I think it's much more likely they're going to want a case like MZM to be in line with that rather than an exception.

It's interesting, I feel like some people approach this question from the position "we need a good reason to not use gametime" whereas my position is "we need a good reason to not use realtime". I guess it's a philosophical difference :p

kirbymastah

2013-05-15 04:24:12 pm

i'm really hoping they don't require videos for every entry on the leaderboards. Sure, I understand it for top times or times really close to the top, but meh :S Requiring videos would just deter a lot of potential speedrunners with lower times...

samthedigital

2013-05-15 08:17:32 pm

Quote:

Random point but i'd still say in-game can still be encouraged for fusion/prime since it's still very consistent, it's VERY SIMPLE, it's a kind of the game's "official time", and all the routes are optimized for in-game time. Especially for fusion 100%, since the counter-clockwise route flows much better and saves significant in-game time, but it's a tiny bit slower in RTA time. I can understand the tie issue, but honestly the ties aren't even that much of an issue since there aren't many in the first place. So I still think we can argue for in-game time for fusion/primes

I disagree here. The fact that ties aren't that common doesn't change the fact that times can vary a good deal and the game's timer doesn't accurately reflect that.

SRL can do whatever they want, but it makes more sense to use real time on their leaderboards since it's primarily a racing site. I personally don't care that much about saving real time though since the difference is minimal and there's no good reason for me to care about real time.

Quote:

The route differences Mobius mentions are pretty small (less than 15 seconds over the entire run), but very real.

Is there much of a difference with acid worm skip early?

[quote]Random point but i'd still say in-game can still be encouraged for fusion/prime since it's still very consistent, it's VERY SIMPLE, it's a kind of the game's "official time", and all the routes are optimized for in-game time. Especially for fusion 100%, since the counter-clockwise route flows much better and saves significant in-game time, but it's a tiny bit slower in RTA time. I can understand the tie issue, but honestly the ties aren't even that much of an issue since there aren't many in the first place. So I still think we can argue for in-game time for fusion/primes[/quote]

I disagree here. The fact that ties aren't that common doesn't change the fact that times can vary a good deal and the game's timer doesn't accurately reflect that.

SRL can do whatever they want, but it makes more sense to use real time on their leaderboards since it's primarily a racing site. I personally don't care that much about saving real time though since the difference is minimal and there's no good reason for me to care about real time.

[quote]The route differences Mobius mentions are pretty small (less than 15 seconds over the entire run), but very real.[/quote]

Is there much of a difference with acid worm skip early?

Dragonfangs

2013-05-16 02:51:35 am

AWS doesn't really cause an ingame/realtime difference apart from forcing late Kraid Cleanup.

Dragondarch

2013-05-16 11:51:15 am

Quote:

SRL can do whatever they want, but it makes more sense to use real time on their leaderboards since it's primarily a racing site. I personally don't care that much about saving real time though since the difference is minimal and there's no good reason for me to care about real time.

It being a racing site doesn't really have anything to do with the leaderboards though, since most leaderboard entries aren't going to be coming from races.
Not to mention it's not as black & white as "just use real time for everything," mostly thanks to PS1/2/3 and how fast each console loads games. PC games would fall under this one as well.

Personally, I'd rather use in-game time if it's available and accurate (and displayed at the end). When it comes to the leaderboards, I don't think one set of universal rules will work. I'd rather see each individual community decide what timing option to use.

Mobiusman

2013-07-11 04:34:20 am

cosmo gave a talk last night on leaderboards and said the lists will be sorted by RTA by default, but will have a field for gametime and the option to sort by that field. Seems like not a bad compromise?

The reason I care about this for MZM is that I really want you guys who don't use RTA to still submit runs. The SRL leaderboard will be a much more visible and accessible resource that our leaderboard here, so I'd love for it to be accurate.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 10:08:15 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 10:07:36 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 10:07:35 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 10:07:34 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 10:07:11 am

2013-07-11 10:06:58 am

I do like cosmo's compromise with it. I'm just not sure if we absolutely have to submit RTA times; in-game time is generally more standard for ZM, and a lot of runners don't track their times by RTA, so it would suck if they had to redo a PB because they don't have an RTA time :/

We should literally just have a link to these m2k2 leaderboards from SRL leaderboards :P I would say just import these times to SRL leaderboards, but we aren't technically allowed to submit others' times, so ehhhh

I'm not sure if mobius agrees, but I do think it should be organized by in-game time for MZM, since it's a more commonly used timing. Having the RTA time is definitely good as well though.

Mobiusman

2013-07-11 10:35:26 am

I have no idea if old runs can even be submitted if they don't have a video, but I definitely agree that being unable to determine the RTA for some current PBs would be a problem for creating an accurate leaderboard. I still don't really agree that gametime should be the standard, but I wouldn't kick up a fuss if it was. :P

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 11:20:24 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 11:20:23 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 11:20:21 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 11:20:18 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 11:19:58 am

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 11:19:50 am

2013-07-11 11:19:36 am

I would imagine that submissions without videos would probably have a tag of "unverified" or whatever, kinda like how the ZSR leaderboards have it. IMO it shouldn't be too big of a deal as long as they aren't like, WR or something (and spidey has videos). We, as a community, know who's capable of getting really good times and such as well :P I'd imagine a few of us in the m2k2 community would become some of the "credible" overlookers of the metroid leaderboards.

but then again, biospark's fusion WRs have no videos

Dragonfangs

2013-07-11 11:20:08 am

I'm pretty sure Cosmo mentioned a video is required to be listed on the leaderboard, but I might be wrong.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-07-11 11:21:18 am

2013-07-11 11:20:51 am

I don't remember exactly; if a video is required just to be on the listing, then that would seriously prevent a lot of potential runners from submitting, which would suck <_<

Mobiusman

2013-07-12 05:49:10 am

okay, yeah, it sounds like all entries will require videos. Given that, I feel like the main reason to use gametime is that lots of existing runs (including spidey's) use gametime strats. And the main reason to use realtime is that it encourages people to use the same strats for races as for runs. Take your pick.

kirbymastah

2013-07-12 09:07:22 am

Or everyone can use the same route that's fastest for both in-game and real-time, aka AWS #Kappa

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-07-12 10:52:25 am

2013-07-12 10:52:08 am

AWS no refills has to do Bottom Norfair Cleanup and likely has to do Late Imago, which together have almost 10 seconds of added doors. #Kappa

Dragondarch

2013-07-13 08:57:56 am

Keep in mind that Cosmo also said that if enough people within the "community" asked for it, the default could be switched to In-Game Time over Real Time.
I don't think we'd have a problem convincing him to switch to in-game time seeing how many of us go by it.

Now, trying to convince him to do Castlevania: Lament of Innocence by game time when I'm virtually the only runner, that's another story #Kappa

KentaKurodani

Edit history:

KentaKurodani: 2014-03-28 09:40:07 am

2014-03-28 09:39:28 am

Metroid 2 Ho! (and Zm soon to come!)

My personal reason for preferring RTA is splitting. I don't find just knowing that I lost time helpful, I want to know where. Splits let me see where I'm losing time more specifically, and thus I know where to focus. Plus all the other games I run, especially Metroid 2 with its hilariously broken in game timer, use RTA, and I personally feel odd not using it. Not trying to necropost, but it's on the first page and relevant to a decision I need to make.