The Impossible Sequence Break.

2005-09-13 04:35:59 pm

Well, I was messing around in ZM the other day, and I had an idea. In a 100% run, couldn't I grab the Power Bomb tank in the lower-left corner of Norfair? Well as soon as I could, I started a new run to see if it was possible. I would have to grab the Varia suit (I usually don't) , and take a dive into the lava. Once I got there though, I realized that it was not going to work out.

Because of the room's shape, it is impossible to get to the PB tank, due to both the ledges and stuff. It would be possible if you could bomb jump, but at that point in the game you do not have the gravity suit, and it would be pointless to get this after you get the suit.

It's also impossible to walljump up there because of the ledges. So it is impossible right?

Maybe not.

In Zero Mission, you can shinespark even while under water/lava without the gravity suit. if you could somehow get a shinecharge to the area under the PB tank, you could shinespark up there and snag it. Now before i get into the method of doing this, lets look at the possiblities if it works.

Tourian backwards. Chozodia backwards. Less cleanup in a 100% run. Fight the Chozo ghost with your power suit, or skip it totally. Those are just off the top of my head, but I am sure there are many, many more things you could do. The game would be broken waaaaayyyyy open.

For this, I made a little map thingy. Check out my awesome paint skills.

http://www.ImageShippers.com/images/9gT43296.png

The legend is at the bottom. Hopefully the map is easy to understand.

Now that you are looking at my very pretty map, you'll hopefully understand what I am talking about.

Method # 1 seems most promising to me, but for all we know both of the are impossible. In method 1 I can get the shinecharged as far as about two "squares" from the next recharge point in room 'D'. With emu raping and stuff like that, (no hacking) this might be able to be pulled off. Think 0% Fusion.

Method 2#, I am pretty sure it wont work, but I thought I would put it in there anyway. Note: These are just two things that I have found. There very well could be a much easier way that I have not though of.

If someone feels like making a vid at the attempts of the above methods, that would be great.

Well now you know what I am trying to do. The thing is, it is still most likely impossible. Think about it though. In Metroid Prime, the people going for low% and things like that have done amazing things, most of them long thought to be impossible. They still keep lowering the % though. This may never happen, but there is always a chance, and if it does, it will be amazing.

Any help, from anyone in trying to do this is most welcome. If anyone finds something that I did not mention in this topic, post it here.

Thread title:

Well, I was messing around in ZM the other day, and I had an idea. In a 100% run, couldn't I grab the Power Bomb tank in the lower-left corner of Norfair? Well as soon as I could, I started a new run to see if it was possible. I would have to grab the Varia suit (I usually don't) , and take a dive into the lava. Once I got there though, I realized that it was not going to work out.

Because of the room's shape, it is impossible to get to the PB tank, due to both the ledges and stuff. It would be possible if you could bomb jump, but at that point in the game you do not have the gravity suit, and it would be pointless to get this after you get the suit.

It's also impossible to walljump up there because of the ledges. So it is impossible right?

Maybe not.

In Zero Mission, you can shinespark even while under water/lava without the gravity suit. if you could somehow get a shinecharge to the area under the PB tank, you could shinespark up there and snag it. Now before i get into the method of doing this, lets look at the possiblities if it works.

Tourian backwards. Chozodia backwards. Less cleanup in a 100% run. Fight the Chozo ghost with your power suit, or skip it totally.  Those are just off the top of my head, but I am sure there are many, many more things you could do. The game would be broken  waaaaayyyyy open.

For this, I made a little map thingy. Check out my awesome paint skills.

[url]http://www.ImageShippers.com/images/9gT43296.png[/url]

The legend is at the bottom. Hopefully the map is easy to understand.

Now that you are looking at my very pretty map, you'll hopefully understand what I am talking about.

Method # 1 seems most promising to me, but for all we know both of the are impossible. In method 1 I can get the shinecharged as far as about two "squares" from the next recharge point in room 'D'. With emu raping and stuff like that, (no hacking) this might be able to be pulled off. Think 0% Fusion.

Method 2#, I am pretty sure it wont work, but I thought I would put it in there anyway. Note: These are just two things that I have found. There very well could be a much easier way that I have not though of.

If someone feels like making a vid at the attempts of the above methods, that would be great.

Well now you know what I am trying to do. The thing is, it is still most likely impossible. Think about it though. In Metroid Prime, the people going for low% and things like that have done amazing things, most of them long thought to be impossible. They still keep lowering the % though. This may never happen, but there is always a chance, and if it does, it will be amazing.

Any help, from anyone in trying to do this is most welcome. If anyone finds something that I did not mention in this topic, post it here.

radu242

2005-09-13 04:51:53 pm

Cool, but I think some parts you won't be able to keep your shine long enough, though. Also, I think the magma will kill you or slow you down too much.
I'm no pro squence breaker though so I might not be the on to trust.

Light of Day

2005-09-13 04:55:38 pm

Interesting... very interesting...

my gut reaction is "not possible". I'm fairly sure that from saving the charge in room G to sparking in room H would take FAR too long considering you not only are going through lava without the gravity suit, which is slow in itself, but don't you have a short morph ball tunnel between G and H? Also, are you sure you can spark from the point you have marked in H? The line looks a little too steep, if you spark from there you'd likely smack straight into the bottom of the overhang, if not hit the wall below the overhang. You'd either have to get higher before sparking, or drop down and spark vertically, both of which waste even more time. Even then, once you have the power bombs you have to get out without dieing from the lava.

However, the whole thing is still worth consideration. Just because it looks unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible until someone actually tries it. All I'm saying is that it won't be easy, not by a long shot. I say go for it. Heck, if this works, the only bosses you'd have to fight to beat the game would be Kraid and Mecha Ridley. It's worth it just for that, isn't it?

Interesting... very interesting...

my gut reaction is "not possible". I'm fairly sure that from saving the charge in room G to sparking in room H would take FAR too long considering you not only are going through lava without the gravity suit, which is slow in itself, but don't you have a short morph ball tunnel between G and H? Also, are you sure you can spark from the point you have marked in H? The line looks a little too steep, if you spark from there you'd likely smack straight into the bottom of the overhang, if not hit the wall below the overhang. You'd either have to get higher before sparking, or drop down and spark vertically, both of which waste even more time. Even then, once you have the power bombs you have to get out without dieing from the lava.

However, the whole thing is still worth consideration. Just because it looks unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible until someone actually tries it. All I'm saying is that it won't be easy, not by a long shot. I say go for it. Heck, if this works, the only bosses you'd have to fight to beat the game would be Kraid and Mecha Ridley. It's worth it just for that, isn't it?

tomatobob

2005-09-13 05:06:23 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

With that map it looks almost plausible, but as you pointed out the map room C is a problem, I can't think of a way to get through there fast enough, but someone should take a shot at that to see what needs to be done there. Interesting at least.

Kridly

2005-09-13 05:13:27 pm

About the whole getting killed from lava thing, I can get to the spark point in room H with about 150 energy left. Now, that is enough to get the PB tank, but not enough to get out. The thing is that I am playing on Hard mode, and on Normal I would have twice as much life, and that would make getting out a peice of cake. So if you play on normal, the lava really is not a problem (damage-wise). On Hard Mode, a few more energy tank may be needed to get out.

And about the spark in room H, I have not been able to get there with a shinecharge so that is a rough estimate of where you would spark. You may need to be higher of lower, but you can walljump high up on the wall and just fall down lower, so that is solved too, provided that you have enough time. "Time" is the main issue here though, isn't it? :P

EDIT: Changed room G to H, as I don't know my own map well enough.

Narcoleptic

2005-09-13 05:29:46 pm

Before I try this, I would like to know...How many energy tanks do you have by then?

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-13 05:33:15 pm

holy flickerbat.

"Time" is the ONLY issue here. thats a well thought out map.

about the shinespark up to the bomb issue, there is no issue. as long as you hit the ledge, you can wall jump up the rest of the way to the corner, which you grab on to, then wall jump up the rest of the left wall to the expansion.

My comments:
-with the wave beam, you could destroy the tops of the blocks in F, all at a time, potentially making it faster.

question: Can you spark on top of the frozen jet-rippers?

-on your way down through D, you have to fire two missiles downward while falling towards the shine point. there are two blocks there, not one. That one will break a few runs at least.

-H will be hard to get to while still being in a shine position. in PAL, this could be done much easier by destroying those blocks beforehand, and coming back later to do the trick.

-Escaping could be done by going up past the missile expansion and out the top of the room, as the room is not hot.

Kridly

2005-09-13 06:07:07 pm

Quote from Narcoleptic:

Before I try this, I would like to know...How many energy tanks do you have by then?

In my runs I always have 5 energy tanks at that point. That is 599 energy on normal and 349 energy on Hard. Nobody said you couldn't pick up a few more e-tanks before attempting this, outside of a speedrun anyway.

Quote from Lazylen:

holy flickerbat.

"Time" is the ONLY issue here. thats a well thought out map.

about the shinespark up to the bomb issue, there is no issue. as long as you hit the ledge, you can wall jump up the rest of the way to the corner, which you grab on to, then wall jump up the rest of the left wall to the expansion.

My comments:
-with the wave beam, you could destroy the tops of the blocks in F, all at a time, potentially making it faster.

question: Can you spark on top of the frozen jet-rippers?

-on your way down through D, you have to fire two missiles downward while falling towards the shine point. there are two blocks there, not one. That one will break a few runs at least.

-H will be hard to get to while still being in a shine position. in PAL, this could be done much easier by destroying those blocks beforehand, and coming back later to do the trick.

-Escaping could be done by going up past the missile expansion and out the top of the room, as the room is not hot.

Never tried sparking from the top of a frozen enemy before, but if it works it could help, but I am not sure.

Killing the two missile blocks in D shouldn't be a problem. Just recharge your shine after you kill them. You dont have to shoot them while you fall, you can just jump over them and shoot down after recharging to then kill them also.

Wow, then on PAL it is that much more possible.

The main problem I am seeing here is F. Doesn't seem like a charge would last long enough to get the the other side. Thanks for the input guys.

[quote="Narcoleptic"]Before I try this, I would like to know...How many energy tanks do you have by then?[/quote]

In my runs I always have 5 energy tanks at that point. That is 599 energy on normal and 349 energy on Hard. Nobody said you couldn't pick up a few more e-tanks before attempting this, outside of a speedrun anyway.

[quote="Lazylen"]holy flickerbat.

"Time" is the ONLY issue here. thats a well thought out map.

about the shinespark up to the bomb issue, there is no issue. as long as you hit the ledge, you can wall jump up the rest of the way to the corner, which you grab on to, then wall jump up the rest of the left wall to the expansion.

My comments: 
-with the wave beam, you could destroy the tops of the blocks in F, all at a time, potentially making it faster.

question: Can you spark on top of the frozen jet-rippers?

-on your way down through D, you have to fire two missiles downward while falling towards the shine point. there are two blocks there, not one. That one will break a few runs at least.

-H will be hard to get to while still being in a shine position. in PAL, this could be done much easier by destroying those blocks beforehand, and coming back later to do the trick.

-Escaping could be done by going up past the missile expansion and out the top of the room, as the room is not hot.[/quote]

Never tried sparking from the top of a frozen enemy before, but if it works it could help, but I am not sure.

Killing the two missile blocks in D shouldn't be a problem. Just recharge your shine after you kill them. You dont have to shoot them while you fall, you can just jump over them and shoot down after recharging to then kill them also.

Wow, then on PAL it is that much more possible.

The main problem I am seeing here is F. Doesn't seem like a charge would last long enough to get the the other side. Thanks for the input guys.

carlmmii

2005-09-13 07:28:55 pm

http://www.metroid2002.com/carlmmii/mzm/lava_sux.mov

We need ekarderif / wassup dawgs for the instant-stand technique, as that's the only way we're going to get the block of dropping required, I'd think.

Edit: ok, just found out it's quicker to spin-jump backwards than it is to just turn around from the squatting position. Will attempt again... and again... and again...

Edit2: damn... a 1 frame gain. :(

Kridly

2005-09-13 07:50:53 pm

Man I am so dumb for not thinking of doing it that way. Thanks Carlmii.

Narcoleptic

2005-09-13 08:07:34 pm

Wouldn't it be easier to fall straight into the lava and shinespark towards the right? The floor looks a bit higher... Actually, it's about the same height...

EDIT: I tried testing to see if it was faster to fall straight than to fall diagonally. As far as I can tell, you fall the same speed...Of course, could be wrong since my results were far from being precise. I lost ~26 energy from top to floor both ways...

carlmmii

2005-09-13 08:39:53 pm

The bubbles don't add height. Both ramps are 1 block high.

"Diagonal" movement in the sense of falling has no effect on your downward velocity. It's just an added horizontal vector.

Duo

2005-09-13 09:08:35 pm

Awesome idea. I'd love to try this out, but I would need to get better with my good friend the Speed Booster first.

spineshark

2005-09-13 09:38:27 pm

in the name of justice!

Sounds cool...but am I the only one who thinks that trajectory looks a little high for a diagonal shinespark? Will this mess up the game like AR'ing PBs does? Does anybody care as long as this can be made to happen?

Narcoleptic

2005-09-13 09:54:40 pm

The last shine spark is impossible. I just tried it using GameShark (on an emulator) with always charged code on. There is a way to get up there, but it requires you to move in the middle of the last room, then do an upward shine spark. There's hardly any time for that. Yeah, so I don't think that it'll work... :/

attachment:

impossible.zip

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-13 09:55:51 pm

Quote from Spine Shark:

Sounds cool...but am I the only one who thinks that trajectory looks a little high for a diagonal shinespark? Will this mess up the game like AR'ing PBs does? Does anybody care as long as this can be made to happen?

im sure that by putting the power bomb tank there, unguarded like that, they would know that people would try to get to it, and probably make it in the process...

if all else fails, we could try to make the spark long enough to be able to shine up past the cliffy, or jump up and diagonal shine.

Narcoleptic

2005-09-13 10:24:37 pm

Note: I got the Power Bomb using always charged and infinite health. The game gets screwed up after that. I didn't beat Ridley and I tried to do Tourian backwards. The elevator did not work...So, I decided to go mess around in Crateria. The ship was gone...I'll go enter Chozodia soon to see what happens...

Ok, wtf. I stayed in Crateria a bit longer. I decided to back to Tourian. As I entered the room left of where the ship was, the place was exploding. I went back to the the big room with the ship. The ship was back. I jumped in it. It just restored my ammo, health and it saved...

Ok, so I went back further. The Green Door after the Tourian elevator in crateria was back and the elevator now works...

spineshark

2005-09-13 10:24:40 pm

in the name of justice!

Yeah..."unguarded"...hahahahahahahaha.

The question is if this is even remotely feasible on a GBA. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is skipping spore spawn and 10 is skipping bob, where does this land, would one of you crazies guess?

Mr. Aran

2005-09-13 10:27:26 pm

everybody knows it's true

This is sooooo bob's cousin.

carlmmii

2005-09-13 10:33:47 pm

Dude, this is like skipping James Bob. Too 1337 for m3.

Chanoire

2005-09-13 11:19:21 pm

More the inverse, isn't it? The objective, at least.

bob dod
pop qoq

Hm. If it were up to me I'd name it pop.

carlmmii

2005-09-14 12:33:29 am

http://www.metroid2002.com/carlmmii/mzm/need_frame_by_frame.mov

This is as close as you're going to get on console. That's as quick as I can turn around on the charge, and as early as I can try the mid-lava shinespark.

We need ekarderif.

As far as I can tell by listening to the audio, the charge breaks while samus is purple, which is due to the lava damage. This means that there's around 3-5 frames that need to be taken off in order for this to be possible.

I'm guessing this is how far I made it this time.

Red Scarlet

2005-09-14 03:59:58 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from Kridly:

Well, I was messing around in ZM the other day, and I had an idea. In a 100% run, couldn't I grab the Power Bomb tank in the lower-left corner of Ridley?

There isn't a Power Bomb in Ridley's area... :P

Good idea/tries, though. Even if you can't go through some areas backwards, surely the time saved so you can get that PB by the full-powered suit would more than make up for doing this?

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-14 08:49:45 am

Quote from Red Scarlet:

Quote from Kridly:

Well, I was messing around in ZM the other day, and I had an idea. In a 100% run, couldn't I grab the Power Bomb tank in the lower-left corner of Ridley?

There isn't a Power Bomb in Ridley's area... :P

Good idea/tries, though. Even if you can't go through some areas backwards, surely the time saved so you can get that PB by the full-powered suit would more than make up for doing this?

This really isnt about speed running anymore... its more about seeing if its possible. kinda like 21% prime and skipping bob. the 21% is nigh impossible (from what we've seen) and skipping bob is so-far impossible without an emulator.

I didnt think falling through the lava would be the hard part. Im more concerned about how the shine would last through the lava through the missile blocks. there is no way a shine would last that long from charging in the other room.

we cant shine up there.

Kridly

2005-09-14 09:12:05 am

Yeah, most likely not. If it would be possible, it seems only on Normal mode on PAL, since you would have enough health to escape, and you could destroy all the missile blocks beforehand. Outside of a speedrun you could do it on hard mode, after you have more E-tanks, but still on PAL it seems. And like Scarlet said, this could be incorperated quite well into 100% speed runs. I doubt Single-Segment ones though.

If this actually works out, but only on PAL, then yay for everyone who plays on emu's and for all the people with PAL carts. *Look's at his NTSC MZM cart with a look of deep betrayal in his eyes*

Maybe I said Ridley instead of Norfair because I was listening to Stemage's 'Ridely' Metal song? *Looks down at the MetroidMetal shirt he is wearing*