social topic

2015-08-10 12:06:11 am

red chamber dream

right?? i can't believe i'm hearing this from a liberal lol

2015-08-10 12:08:30 am

Thank goodness it can't be reversed. They need to stay dead! lol

The idea of an innocent person being executed is terrible, but what about the cases where there is absolutely no doubt about guilt? Do you support it then?

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:09:57 am

red chamber dream

impossible to qualify that. it needs to be abolished altogether, or else innocent people will be put to death. that's what history tells us.

just one innocent person dying is far more horrible than any number of guilty people being put to death. i'm not willing to take that risk.

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:10:29 am

red chamber dream

like i said, numerous other countries (and states) have already figured this out, not sure why part of america is so behind on this issue

Opium

2015-08-10 12:12:03 am

Quote from arkarian:

impossible to qualify that. it needs to be abolished altogether, or else innocent people will be put to death. that's what history tells us.

just one innocent person dying is far more horrible than any number of guilty people being put to death. i'm not willing to take that risk.

Are you saying there's a possibility that Holmes is not the gunman? I'm talking about cases like this one, where there is no doubt.

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:12:56 am

red chamber dream

no, i'm saying you can't quantify or even legislate what "no doubt" means. that's not how our justice system works

Opium

2015-08-10 12:15:41 am

Quote from arkarian:

like i said, numerous other countries (and states) have already figured this out, not sure why part of america is so behind on this issue

That's like the anti-gmo argument where people present the fact that gmo's are banned in numerous countries as evidence that they are unsafe. It's not. It just means lawmakers will often cave to public opinion regardless of any argument or evidence. Hell, homosexuality is banned in many places but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I don't care what other countries think.

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:16:16 am

red chamber dream

i care what countries who are doing better than we are in terms of social issues think

Opium

2015-08-10 12:16:16 am

Quote from arkarian:

no, i'm saying you can't quantify or even legislate what "no doubt" means. that's not how our justice system works

You're right. They use the words 'beyond any shadow of doubt'. Big difference.

arkarian

Edit history:

arkarian: 2015-08-10 12:17:00 am

2015-08-10 12:16:47 am

red chamber dream

looking to other countries for examples is a good idea. that's how we learn to be better, and vice versa for countries looking at us

i live on earth, not just in the us

tomatobob

2015-08-10 12:20:54 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Opium:

You're right. They use the words 'beyond any shadow of doubt'. Big difference.

Yo juries consist entirely of stupid motherfuckers and people who don't want to be there, "Beyond a shadow of doubt" is actually meaningless.

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:21:23 am

red chamber dream

precisely

it's not like there's some fact machine that spits out facts, people are judging this shit, and people are idiots

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:25:21 am

red chamber dream

time to finish bojack horseman

tomatobob

2015-08-10 12:31:05 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Finished it up last week myself. Good shit.

Opium

2015-08-10 12:34:51 am

Some people deserve to be killed, period. I used to think that wasn't true, but it is. Sucks, but it just IS.

But this debate goes nowhere, because when someone says they're opposed because of cost you can ask them "If it were LESS expensive then life w/o parole, would you be for it?" Then they'll say the system is fallible so you can ask them "What about cases where innocence isn't even being disputed, where there truly is no doubt? Would you support it for those specific cases?" Then they'll dodge again and bring up some other specific factor point, and again you can ask what if that factor were off the table, and they'll answer with another factor. Is it the right thing to do when the person IS guilty of a horrendous crime? I say yes.

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:36:58 am

red chamber dream

it's not just cost, it's possible to be against something for more than one reason lol

arkarian

2015-08-10 12:37:39 am

red chamber dream

but anyway, tbob i think this might be will arnett's best performance ever, it's my favorite at least

tomatobob

2015-08-10 12:45:28 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from arkarian:

but anyway, tbob i think this might be will arnett's best performance ever, it's my favorite at least

Yeah he's really good, I really shouldn't give a shit about a depressed cartoon horse but fuck he's convincing!

Quote from Opium:

But this debate goes nowhere, because when someone says they're opposed because of cost you can ask them "If it were LESS expensive then life w/o parole, would you be for it?" Then they'll say the system is fallible so you can ask them "What about cases where innocence isn't even being disputed, where there truly is no doubt? Would you support it for those specific cases?" Then they'll dodge again and bring up some other specific factor point, and again you can ask what if that factor were off the table, and they'll answer with another factor. Is it the right thing to do when the person IS guilty of a horrendous crime? I say yes.

Ok but what if I find killing a person to be a generally bad thing to do and have no interest in dealing with the cognitive dissonance that would come with advocating doing so even if said person "deserves" it.

[quote="arkarian"]but anyway, tbob i think this might be will arnett's best performance ever, it's my favorite at least[/quote]
Yeah he's really good, I really shouldn't give a shit about a depressed cartoon horse but fuck he's convincing!

[quote="Opium"]But this debate goes nowhere, because when someone says they're opposed because of cost you can ask them "If it were LESS expensive then life w/o parole, would you be for it?"  Then they'll say the system is fallible so you can ask them "What about cases where innocence isn't even being disputed, where there truly is no doubt?  Would you support it for those specific cases?"  Then they'll dodge again and bring up some other specific factor point, and again you can ask what if that factor were off the table, and they'll answer with another factor.  Is it the right thing to do when the person IS guilty of a horrendous crime?  I say yes.[/quote]
Ok but what if I find killing a person to be a generally bad thing to do and have no interest in dealing with the cognitive dissonance that would come with advocating doing so even if said person "deserves" it.

Opium

2015-08-10 01:02:11 am

Quote from Opium:

But this debate goes nowhere, because when someone says they're opposed because of cost you can ask them "If it were LESS expensive then life w/o parole, would you be for it?" Then they'll say the system is fallible so you can ask them "What about cases where innocence isn't even being disputed, where there truly is no doubt? Would you support it for those specific cases?" Then they'll dodge again and bring up some other specific factor point, and again you can ask what if that factor were off the table, and they'll answer with another factor. Is it the right thing to do when the person IS guilty of a horrendous crime? I say yes.

Ok but what if I find killing a person to be a generally bad thing to do and have no interest in dealing with the cognitive dissonance that would come with advocating doing so even if said person "deserves" it. [/quote]

Detaining people against their will and taking away their freedom is a bad thing too but someone's gotta do it. It's not pretty, it's not good, but crime and punishment are a reality, just like war. When someone commits a crime, we punish them, and I think death is sometimes suitable.

Quote from arkarian:

right?? i can't believe i'm hearing this from a liberal lol

I don't think I can call myself a liberal any more. Things have really changed. I've talked about it a lot with friends my age who are feeling the same way. Younger people identifying as liberals are advocating all kinds of crazy nonsense today, and it reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm. That was required reading when I was in HS, I kind of wish it was again.

[quote="Opium"]But this debate goes nowhere, because when someone says they're opposed because of cost you can ask them "If it were LESS expensive then life w/o parole, would you be for it?"  Then they'll say the system is fallible so you can ask them "What about cases where innocence isn't even being disputed, where there truly is no doubt?  Would you support it for those specific cases?"  Then they'll dodge again and bring up some other specific factor point, and again you can ask what if that factor were off the table, and they'll answer with another factor.  Is it the right thing to do when the person IS guilty of a horrendous crime?  I say yes.[/quote]
Ok but what if I find killing a person to be a generally bad thing to do and have no interest in dealing with the cognitive dissonance that would come with advocating doing so even if said person "deserves" it.  [/quote]

Detaining people against their will and taking away their freedom is a bad thing too but someone's gotta do it. It's not pretty, it's not good, but crime and punishment are a reality, just like war.  When someone commits a crime, we punish them, and I think death is sometimes suitable.

[quote="arkarian"]right?? i can't believe i'm hearing this from a liberal lol[/quote]

I don't think I can call myself a liberal any more.  Things have really changed.  I've talked about it a lot with friends my age who are feeling the same way.  Younger people identifying as liberals are advocating all kinds of crazy nonsense today, and it reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm.  That was required reading when I was in HS, I kind of wish it was again.

arkarian

2015-08-10 01:03:50 am

red chamber dream

i just mean liberal as in liberal

open to changing their opinion