Super Metroid/SMILE Help Thread

2008-07-25 01:31:33 am

Quote from Acheron86:

changing layer2 scroll has never ever given me those sorts of bugs, although I don't know if I've tried 0000 before (I usually leave them alone or set them to 91D5 [default "do nothing" value AFAIK]). It could be a bug with Bomb Torizo's room specifically; try testing it in another room and see what happens.

I just recommended 0000 because then it doesn't scroll. In a room as small as the bomb torizo's I didn't think it would matter too much. Also, I had to use 0000 a couple times in Cider because I changed a tileset in a room without a drawn background that was next to a room with a drawn background, both starting with different tilesets but I changed them into tileset 1. I kept getting a couple different glitches to happen when I would use other values. One time the background was just messed up after reentering the room, and I had a problem where pausing and then unpausing froze the game. When I changed the background pointer, the layer 1_2 scroll pointer, and the layer 2 scroll pointer all to 0000, the problems went away.
Phew... Fullhacking is hard work.

[quote="Acheron86"]
changing layer2 scroll has never ever given me those sorts of bugs, although I don't know if I've tried 0000 before (I usually leave them alone or set them to 91D5 [default "do nothing" value AFAIK]). It could be a bug with Bomb Torizo's room specifically; try testing it in another room and see what happens.
[/quote]

I just recommended 0000 because then it doesn't scroll. In a room as small as the bomb torizo's I didn't think it would matter too much. Also, I had to use 0000 a couple times in Cider because I changed a tileset in a room without a drawn background that was next to a room with a drawn background, both starting with different tilesets but I changed them into tileset 1. I kept getting a couple different glitches to happen when I would use other values. One time the background was just messed up after reentering the room, and I had a problem where pausing and then unpausing froze the game. When I changed the background pointer, the layer 1_2 scroll pointer, and the layer 2 scroll pointer all to 0000, the problems went away. 
Phew... Fullhacking is hard work.

Deep_Space_Observer

2008-07-25 02:40:51 am

A hacking related question, but not exactly about SMILE.

Can something cruel also be something awesome?

As in "Now you see it, now you don't" (examine attachments carefully)
Just as a note, the room pictured is currently at 666/1244 lol. Fooling around ftw.

attachments:

Nowyoudon't.png

Nowyouseeit.png

Cardweaver

Edit history:

Cardweaver: 2008-07-25 06:00:46 am

2008-07-25 05:18:28 am

I still see it... It would be more awesome if you found a way to camoflage it better than it currently is. If that's not possible, its worth at least a "wtf" moment from the player.

edit:
Also, as a general rule, you cannot please everybody when you make a hack. Some people love spikes, some despise them, and some feel that they are appropriate for certain circumstances. Everybody likes different things, and there will always be someone who thinks your hack is either too hard skillwise, too hard explorationwise, too frustratingly tedious, or too easy.

IMO, the key is to alert the public beforehand of the difficulty level involved, and make sure that at the very least, you can do everything in your hack.

Please note this rule probably excludes Aegis, which reeks of awesomeness. [/blatant praise]

Acheron

2008-07-25 09:54:06 am

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Oops. Layer2scroll should never be what I typed! You'd get major bugs. 91D5 is meant for Layer1_2 pointer! Layer2scroll needs to be #0#0 (uses layer2 for background) or #1#1 (uses BG pointer).

Quote from Cardweaver:

Also, as a general rule, you cannot please everybody when you make a hack. Some people love spikes, some despise them, and some feel that they are appropriate for certain circumstances. Everybody likes different things, and there will always be someone who thinks your hack is either too hard skillwise, too hard explorationwise, too frustratingly tedious, or too easy.

IMO, the key is to alert the public beforehand of the difficulty level involved, and make sure that at the very least, you can do everything in your hack.

Please note this rule probably excludes Aegis, which reeks of awesomeness. [/blatant praise]

Actually I think Dmantra has come the closest to the "please everyone" notion by making a hard and an easy version; the only thing I'd criticize Cliffhanger for is its linearity, I think. Drewseph, too, made a great hack in Redesign (though I wish he'd made two difficulties as well) and again linearity is its main weakness.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I know you can't please everyone, but you can come damn close in a fullhack that's nonlinear and offers multiple difficulties. /optimism

Oops. Layer2scroll should never be what I typed! You'd get major bugs. 91D5 is meant for Layer1_2 pointer! Layer2scroll needs to be #0#0 (uses layer2 for background) or #1#1 (uses BG pointer).

[quote="Cardweaver"]
Also, as a general rule, you cannot please everybody when you make a hack. Some people love spikes, some despise them, and some feel that they are appropriate for certain circumstances. Everybody likes different things, and there will always be someone who thinks your hack is either too hard skillwise, too hard explorationwise, too frustratingly tedious, or too easy.

IMO, the key is to alert the public beforehand of the difficulty level involved, and make sure that at the very least, you can do everything in your hack.

Please note this rule probably excludes Aegis, which reeks of awesomeness. [/blatant praise]
[/quote]

Actually I think Dmantra has come the closest to the "please everyone" notion by making a hard and an easy version; the only thing I'd criticize Cliffhanger for is its linearity, I think. Drewseph, too, made a great hack in Redesign (though I wish he'd made two difficulties as well) and again linearity is its main weakness.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I know you can't please everyone, but you can come damn close in a fullhack that's nonlinear and offers multiple difficulties. /optimism

Cardweaver

2008-07-25 10:23:44 am

Too true. Cliffhanger (easy version anyway, damn heated rooms...)was a spot on 10/10 for me. I personally like a bit of linearity. However, while I was playing through it, it didn't seem linear, but that could've been that I had no idea where I was headed half the time. Little things like that (me not thinking it was too linear why you did) are part of what I was saying.

As it is, there will not be multiple difficulties in Cider. I'm spending the time to make a fullhack, and y'all best like it. Wink

More seriously, some extra expansions will be much harder to get, and in much better hiding places than the necessary items.

Anyway, back to my point: The hacking community is too varied to try to please everyone. Make a hack that you enjoy, but if nobody but you will enjoy it, don't release it to the public laugh new

Deep_Space_Observer

2008-07-25 02:08:21 pm

I don't know you guys that well yet, so I really can't say who enjoys the same kind of things I enjoy. But Again (the halfhack I'm working on now) is merely practice for an extensive fullhack later on, I'm developing my level design and visual appearance skills, so it's really just testing the waters instead of jumping in.

I do, however, approach it with the mentality that time is money. Even though others play it for free, I want to make it worth the time they spend playing on it.

Anyway, scrolls are giving me nightmares. If I change a room to all green scrolls, I need to put all doors on the very edges, correct?

Xaggoth

2008-07-25 03:01:24 pm

Green will scroll in every direction (I think), if you place transitions that aren't on the edges of a green scroll you will get graphical errors.

Acheron

2008-07-25 03:19:22 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Quote from Deep_Space_Observer:

I don't know you guys that well yet, so I really can't say who enjoys the same kind of things I enjoy. But Again (the halfhack I'm working on now) is merely practice for an extensive fullhack later on, I'm developing my level design and visual appearance skills, so it's really just testing the waters instead of jumping in.

I do, however, approach it with the mentality that time is money. Even though others play it for free, I want to make it worth the time they spend playing on it.

Anyway, scrolls are giving me nightmares. If I change a room to all green scrolls, I need to put all doors on the very edges, correct?

Yes, but if you want all greens just set the scroll pointer to 0001.

DMantra

(user is banned)

2008-07-25 04:29:29 pm

Breathe in the Future, Breathe out the Past

Quote from Acheron86:

the only thing I'd criticize Cliffhanger for is its linearity, I think.

I created Cliffhanger to be absolutely linear, because I wanted it that way at the time. It was my first hack so I didn't want to give too much thought to possibility and focus more on item paths. I'd like to make a non-linear hack eventually. I don't feel linear/non-linear is that big a factor in how good a hack can be. Execution is the key, a non-linear hack could be horrendous if you end up at the far reaches of the planet and see stuff all over the place where you wish you had certain items you potentially could have had hours ago.

uNsane

2008-07-25 04:33:48 pm

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote from DMantra:

Execution is the key, a non-linear hack could be horrendous if you end up at the far reaches of the planet and see stuff all over the place where you wish you had certain items you potentially could have had hours ago.

That's exactly what happened to me when I played Cliffhanger. >_>

Deep_Space_Observer

2008-07-25 05:07:52 pm

Discovered I need some help after attempting to move doors.

In room 792FD, I moved the door leading to bombs one screen to the right and changed the scroll it's in to a green. It works just fine when I enter the door, but when I exit through that door, it puts me out where the door used to be and the screen refuses to scroll back to the right.

Acheron

2008-07-25 05:24:47 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Quote from Deep_Space_Observer:

Discovered I need some help after attempting to move doors.

In room 792FD, I moved the door leading to bombs one screen to the right and changed the scroll it's in to a green. It works just fine when I enter the door, but when I exit through that door, it puts me out where the door used to be and the screen refuses to scroll back to the right.

When you move a door's location in one room, you need to change where its counterpart door leads. In other words, if Door A goes to Door B, and I move Door A somewhere else in the room, I need to change where Door B is pointed to "exit" to. You can do this by mousing over the new location Door A is at and hitting "C" which clones the door. Then go to Door B and hit "D" while mousing over the door tiles; this'll let you replace Door B's old data with the cloned new data.

Cardweaver

2008-07-25 06:38:06 pm

Quote from Acheron86:

When you move a door's location in one room, you need to change where its counterpart door leads. In other words, if Door A goes to Door B, and I move Door A somewhere else in the room, I need to change where Door B is pointed to "exit" to. You can do this by mousing over the new location Door A is at and hitting "C" which clones the door. Then go to Door B and hit "D" while mousing over the door tiles; this'll let you replace Door B's old data with the cloned new data.

There are hotkeys for that!?!?!? Why has nobody told me this? I've been doing it manually forever. Thankfully, I did at least know that you can press "e" while on a door tile to enter that room.

Acheron

2008-07-25 06:42:20 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Quote from Cardweaver:

There are hotkeys for that!?!?!? Why has nobody told me this? I've been doing it manually forever. Thankfully, I did at least know that you can press "e" while on a door tile to enter that room.

Haha, I didn't know you could do it without hotkeys. Go figure.

Xaggoth

2008-07-25 07:09:28 pm

Quote from Cardweaver:

There are hotkeys for that!?!?!?

Show me the hot keys!

Black Telomeres

2008-07-25 08:15:24 pm

Quote from uNsane:

That's exactly what happened to me when I played Cliffhanger. >_>

Yep, that's a perfectly possible thing to have happen in a linear hack as well, if it doesn't lock you in one specific small area until you get a certain item, etc.

Also, as far as keeping people "happy" with difficulty, I see little reason people have to be pandered to as far as high difficulty. A moderately challenging hack should still be perfectly fun to a more experienced player. So I don't much see a reason to make a hardmode patch to appeal to the Impossible crowd if the designer doesn't even like that type of difficulty himself and thus wouldn't know how to make it fun for others. Unless that's specifically who the hack is targeted towards, like CH was, which is pretty much the reason why CH had two vers in the first place (since the easy ver patch is the side project).

playerman1230

2008-07-25 08:19:42 pm

Hated by all

Quote from Black Telomeres:

Also, as far as keeping people "happy" with difficulty, I see little reason people have to be pandered to as far as high difficulty. A moderately challenging hack should still be perfectly fun to a more experienced player.

From your point of view, I think there's a blind difference line between the concept of medium and moderate.

Back on-topic:
I might figure that Set 1-Row3/5 sky colors are swapped. End of story for now.

Black Telomeres

2008-07-25 08:22:26 pm

"Blind difference line"?

playerman1230

2008-07-25 08:23:48 pm

Hated by all

Maybe I made a misconception. I meant a really thick line, thicker than a ribbon.

Black Telomeres

2008-07-25 08:35:24 pm

Well I'm talking about people who love IMPOSSIBLE's difficulty. There's no real way to describe GD as anything but moderate in comparison.

Acheron

2008-07-25 08:47:47 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

I didn't mean to jack the help thread with difficulty talk, sorry dudes and ladies!

HOW MAEK SCROL SKY WERK

Black Telomeres

2008-07-25 08:51:39 pm

I can still see your black text aiwebs_008

uNsane

Edit history:

uNsane: 2008-07-25 09:19:01 pm

2008-07-25 09:09:53 pm

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Rakki has figured out how to fix the scrolling sky error!

<20:52:45> <Rakki> 0E 00 6A 89 80 D1 8A 00 48 00 08
<20:52:50> Is part of the BG_Data for the Landing Site.
<20:52:53> <BlackTelomeres> I CAN READ THE HEX
<20:53:00> <Rakki> Specifically, what's used by the ship when you load the game.
<20:53:01> <Acheron> wait what
<20:53:07> I thought bg data was like
<20:53:09> 2 bytes long
<20:53:14> <Rakki> That's what's IN BG_Data.
<20:53:17> <Acheron> oh
<20:53:20> =-= JJ4eva is now known as JJ4eva|out
<20:53:22> <Acheron> you checked the pointers! smart guy
<20:53:24> <Rakki> The BG_Data pointer points to a block of code in which that's located.
<20:53:28> <BlackTelomeres> RAKKI SO SMART
<20:53:38> he did what Jathys didnt think to do
<20:53:42> <Rakki> 0E 00 is used in rooms with scrolling sky. Those being, the Landing Site and the Lake.
<20:53:46> Now.
<BlackTelomeres> when he was making SMILE anyway
<20:53:55> <Rakki> The two bytes after those first two are where the scrolling sky error occurrs.
<20:53:57> *occurs.
<20:54:03> <RaccoonSam> what a load of shit
<20:54:05> <Acheron> dude did you like
<20:54:07> <BlackTelomeres> 6A 89?
<20:54:09> <Acheron> run a debugger on this?
<20:54:10> <RaccoonSam> the fucker won't still boot
<20:54:11> <Rakki> They're a pointer to the DOOR CODE that links to the room with the Scrolling Sky.
<20:54:22> <BlackTelomeres> and SMILE doesnt change this?
<20:54:35> <Rakki> When you link a new room to the Landing Site, it steps out of the BG_Data for the room.
<20:54:41> Hence why the graphics get screwed up.
<20:54:43> <Acheron> prob. because door cloning doesn't carry the extra data some doors do
<20:54:48> <BlackTelomeres> yep
<20:54:54> IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW MAN
<20:54:57> <Rakki> The BG_Data for the room has to be set up to link specific doors.
<20:55:03> <Acheron> so what's the actual fix
<20:55:11> making new bg data?
<20:55:14> <BlackTelomeres> you go into a hex editor and painstakingly
<20:55:15> <Rakki> That second word has to be the same value as the door code used to link to a room.
<20:55:17> <BlackTelomeres> change all the blorp
<20:55:24> <Rakki> But that won't fix it by itself.
<20:55:26> <BlackTelomeres> just one door?
<20:55:29> or all doors?
<20:55:33> <Rakki> The next three bytes are the location of the background in the ROM.
<20:55:35> <BlackTelomeres> oh the doorOUT
<20:55:36> ok
<20:55:50> <Rakki> 80 and 8A (low byte and Bank number) are the same for all heights of screen in the Landing Site.
<20:56:03> <Acheron> so bg data needs to be 0E 00 (doorOUT pointer) (background pointer)?
<20:56:05> <Rakki> It's the middle byte, the high byte, that determines what background loads.
<20:56:10> No.
<20:56:13> <Acheron> ok go on
<20:56:16> I'm just trying to keep up
<20:56:32> oh ok
<20:56:33> <Rakki> Not door OUT, but rather, the address of the specific door code that's located in bank $83 that links that door to a scrolling sky room.
<20:56:35> <BlackTelomeres> WE LOVE YOU RAKKI
<20:56:37> <Acheron> in this case the middle byte is D1
<20:56:42> <Rakki> Yeah.
<20:56:49> D1 is for Y 00 of the room.
<20:56:54> <Acheron> ok now I'm reall confused because
<20:56:59> <BlackTelomeres> dont doors use
<20:57:01> 2
<20:57:03> bytes
<20:57:05> or whatever
<20:57:06> <Rakki> No.
<20:57:08> <Acheron> each line of code in bank $83 is one door
<20:57:09> <BlackTelomeres> bits boops
<20:57:13> <Acheron> no, that's doorout pointer
<20:57:17> each door uses ~14 bytes
<20:57:20> sometimes more
<20:57:22> <BlackTelomeres> no i mean
<20:57:23> the ROOM
<20:57:25> portion
<20:57:27> <Rakki> It uses the door out pointer, the address of the specific door you go through, as a pointer for which sky data to use.
<20:57:28> <BlackTelomeres> is only 2 bytes
<20:57:41> <--still doesnt know exactly what a byte is
<20:57:43> <Acheron> so wouldn't that mean you'd need
<20:57:49> one of these lines of code for
<20:57:51> each door?
<Rakki> Or, not the pointer for the sky, but rather, which section of the BG_Data to use.
<20:57:57> <BlackTelomeres> the portion that tells you what room it leads to
<Rakki> Yes, you do, Acheron.
<20:58:03> <Acheron> ok
<20:58:04> <BlackTelomeres> WTF
<20:58:06> <Acheron> that makes sense then
<20:58:07> <BlackTelomeres> thats A LOT NEGRO
<20:58:08> <Rakki> So if you add doors to the Landing Site, you have to relocate BG_Data.
<20:58:15> <BlackTelomeres> ugh
<20:58:17> <Rakki> But if you just edit, you can just edit.
<20:58:24> <BlackTelomeres> Jathys pweez make easier fix 4 us
<20:58:31> <Acheron> so actually
<20:58:35> <Rakki> In either case, both banks $83 and $8F need the same address free for this to work.
<20:58:36> <BlackTelomeres> WE ARE SO FUCKED
<20:58:42> oh god
<20:58:44> <Acheron> this helps me understand what the BG_data pointer points to
<20:58:45> <BlackTelomeres> WE ARE SO FUCKED
<20:58:51> if you make 90 scrolling sky rooms
<20:58:57> then you need to copy
<20:59:00> the bgdata pointer
<20:59:06> into many diff spots
<20:59:08> <Acheron> BG_data points to some code, THEN another pointer to graphical data?
<20:59:10> is that right?
<BlackTelomeres> with the doorcode diff
<20:59:19> <Acheron> I always thought it was just a direct pointer, but I never checked
<Rakki> Yeah.
<20:59:20> Well.
<20:59:25> <BlackTelomeres> RakkI: is this true?
<20:59:28> like GD
<20:59:36> <Rakki> BG_Data uses the Door code of the specific door you went through to determine which line of code in BG_Data to load.
<BlackTelomeres> it has over 9000 scrolling sky rooms
<20:59:42> wach with diff numbers of doors
<20:59:59> WACH
<21:00:03> eACH
<21:00:04> <Rakki> So, yes.
<21:00:05> <Acheron> lols
<21:00:09> lrn2type
<21:00:17> <BlackTelomeres> WACHT VEIN EISENBURG
<21:00:20> <Acheron> so okay
<21:00:22> the actual fix then
<21:00:24> <BlackTelomeres> so jathys cant make
<21:00:26> <Rakki> The first two bytes in the scrolling sky room are 0E 00 to denote that it's determining which section of BG_Data to use.
<21:00:27> <BlackTelomeres> a fix for this easily
<21:00:29> at all
<21:00:31> <Acheron> is to copy that code, and change the door pointer, yes?
<21:00:46> <Rakki> The second two are the address of the door code of the door that links to the scrolling sky room.
<21:00:47> <BlackTelomeres> hed need a lot of free space
<21:00:49> <Acheron> would it always be 0E00 for doors?
<21:00:55> <Rakki> Because that determines to use that line of pointers for the background.
<21:01:03> And the next three bytes are the background data to load.
<Acheron> or is that affected by height and such?
<21:01:22> ok
<21:01:24> <Rakki> The low byte and bank being 80 and 8A respectively in the Landing Site, and the middle byte being different for which screen Y to link to.
<21:01:28> <Acheron> so if I made a new door what would I need to change
<21:01:34> one new door in the landing site
<21:01:49> I change the door pointer and the middle byte
<21:01:50> anything else?
<21:01:58> <Rakki> Well ADDING a door to the landing site, you'd have to relocate BG_Data to some free space in $8F so you could add a line to it.
<21:02:05> <Acheron> oh fuck
<21:02:06> BT
<21:02:08> look what bank its in
<21:02:11> GOOD TIMES
<BlackTelomeres> scrolling sky
<21:02:14> <Rakki> Well those are the only two bytes that should need changed.
<21:02:15> <BlackTelomeres> what bank?
<21:02:17> 8F
<21:02:18> ?
<21:02:19> <Acheron> yup
<21:02:21> 8F
<21:02:24> what
<21:02:30> oh yeah you don't use +/- stuff much
<21:02:31> <Rakki> That 00 48 marks what section of RAM to store the background to.
<21:02:32> <BlackTelomeres> doesnt matter, i dont intend to use scrolling sky for
<21:02:35> <Acheron> bank 8F is so crammed
<21:02:37> <BlackTelomeres> my huge hack
<21:02:39> <Acheron> fucking
<21:02:40> <Rakki> It's most often 00 48, so it should always work with that.
<21:02:44> <interdpth> XD
<21:02:46> <Acheron> plms, fx, bg stuff
<21:02:47> all in one bank
<21:02:48> <BlackTelomeres> i do intend to add enemies nsuch
<21:02:50> <interdpth> I totally read hack as crac
<21:02:51> k
<21:02:59> <BlackTelomeres> and plms i dont really need to add
<21:03:02> much anyway
<21:03:11> <Rakki> 00 08 should be the same, regardless. It's the size of the background, and 0800 bytes in size is one full screen.
<21:03:12> <BlackTelomeres> just enough extra fx1s so the redfx1s work
<21:03:13> <Acheron> my bank $8F in Aegis has like
<21:03:17> $500 bytes left
<21:03:19> I'm getting nervous
<21:03:29> <BlackTelomeres> Acheron you nervous nelly
<21:03:34> <Acheron> scroll data
<21:03:37> takes up a lot
<21:03:43> <BlackTelomeres> if you didnt make huge rooms
<21:03:49> and used more of the ones that are given to you
<21:03:51> youd be fine
<21:03:55> <Rakki> I didn't mention WHAT to change that background pointer to, though, Acheron. =P
<21:04:01> <Acheron> blargh
<21:04:03> -->| bioniclegenius (0cd8fccc@metroid2002.com) has joined #jzd
<21:04:10> <BlackTelomeres> we are so fucked with SS
<21:04:12> <Acheron> hurhhhh
<interdpth> HHAH
<21:04:13> <Rakki> Oops. I made a mistake a little bit ago, also.
<21:04:14> <interdpth> LEGO GENIUS
<21:04:15> <BlackTelomeres> theres no way
<21:04:17> <bioniclegenius> I have another question lol
<21:04:25> <BlackTelomeres> Jathys will be able tofix this easily
<bioniclegenius> what's the ship classified as>
<21:04:30> does anyone know?
<21:04:33> <BlackTelomeres> enemy
<21:04:37> <Rakki> B1 is for a screen Y of 00.
<21:04:38> <BlackTelomeres> or plm
<21:04:43> rightclick on it
<21:04:45> <Acheron> enemy I thought
<21:04:55> <bioniclegenius> really?
<21:04:56> ok
<21:04:57> <Acheron> it has no collision detection though
<21:04:58> <Rakki> B9 for 01, C1 for 02, C9 for 03, D1 for 04.
<21:07:04> <Rakki> The important things are just that the second word needs changed to match the address of the door (in bank $83) that you're going through, so it will know to load the following background data when the room loads, and what to change the high byte of the background pointer to.
<21:11:55> <Rakki> Hmm. Maybe I should've added that that segment of code I posted needs to be part of the Landing Site's BG_Data pointers, otherwise, the sky will be messed up when you do an SRAM load.
<21:12:25> <Rakki> Also, 0E 00 FE 88 80 B1 8A 00 48 00 08 is used for Landing.
<21:13:24> <Rakki> Those two need to be in place because I don't know what the heck you would change to change what's in A when the game loads, which is what's being read for what part of BG_Data to use, and, well, the same for when the ship lands I guess.

Rakki has figured out how to fix the scrolling sky error!

[spoiler="WARNING: GIANT WALL OF TEXT"]<20:52:45>	<Rakki>	0E 00 6A 89 80 D1 8A 00 48 00 08
<20:52:50>	Is part of the BG_Data for the Landing Site.
<20:52:53>	<BlackTelomeres>	I CAN READ THE HEX
<20:53:00>	<Rakki>	Specifically, what's used by the ship when you load the game.
<20:53:01>	<Acheron>	wait what
<20:53:07>	I thought bg data was like
<20:53:09>	2 bytes long
<20:53:14>	<Rakki>	That's what's IN BG_Data.
<20:53:17>	<Acheron>	oh
<20:53:20>	=-=	JJ4eva is now known as JJ4eva|out
<20:53:22>	<Acheron>	you checked the pointers! smart guy
<20:53:24>	<Rakki>	The BG_Data pointer points to a block of code in which that's located.
<20:53:28>	<BlackTelomeres>	RAKKI SO SMART
<20:53:38>	he did what Jathys didnt think to do
<20:53:42>	<Rakki>	0E 00 is used in rooms with scrolling sky. Those being, the Landing Site and the Lake.
<20:53:46>	Now.
	<BlackTelomeres>	when he was making SMILE anyway
<20:53:55>	<Rakki>	The two bytes after those first two are where the scrolling sky error occurrs.
<20:53:57>	*occurs.
<20:54:03>	<RaccoonSam>	what a load of shit
<20:54:05>	<Acheron>	dude did you like
<20:54:07>	<BlackTelomeres>	6A 89?
<20:54:09>	<Acheron>	run a debugger on this?
<20:54:10>	<RaccoonSam>	the fucker won't still boot
<20:54:11>	<Rakki>	They're a pointer to the DOOR CODE that links to the room with the Scrolling Sky.
<20:54:22>	<BlackTelomeres>	and SMILE doesnt change this?
<20:54:35>	<Rakki>	When you link a new room to the Landing Site, it steps out of the BG_Data for the room.
<20:54:41>	Hence why the graphics get screwed up.
<20:54:43>	<Acheron>	prob. because door cloning doesn't carry the extra data some doors do
<20:54:48>	<BlackTelomeres>	yep
<20:54:54>	IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW MAN
<20:54:57>	<Rakki>	The BG_Data for the room has to be set up to link specific doors.
<20:55:03>	<Acheron>	so what's the actual fix
<20:55:11>	making new bg data?
<20:55:14>	<BlackTelomeres>	you go into a hex editor and painstakingly
<20:55:15>	<Rakki>	That second word has to be the same value as the door code used to link to a room.
<20:55:17>	<BlackTelomeres>	change all the blorp
<20:55:24>	<Rakki>	But that won't fix it by itself.
<20:55:26>	<BlackTelomeres>	just one door?
<20:55:29>	or all doors?
<20:55:33>	<Rakki>	The next three bytes are the location of the background in the ROM.
<20:55:35>	<BlackTelomeres>	oh the doorOUT
<20:55:36>	ok
<20:55:50>	<Rakki>	80 and 8A (low byte and Bank number) are the same for all heights of screen in the Landing Site.
<20:56:03>	<Acheron>	so bg data needs to be 0E 00 (doorOUT pointer) (background pointer)?
<20:56:05>	<Rakki>	It's the middle byte, the high byte, that determines what background loads.
<20:56:10>	No.
<20:56:13>	<Acheron>	ok go on
<20:56:16>	I'm just trying to keep up
<20:56:32>	oh ok
<20:56:33>	<Rakki>	Not door OUT, but rather, the address of the specific door code that's located in bank $83 that links that door to a scrolling sky room.
<20:56:35>	<BlackTelomeres>	WE LOVE YOU RAKKI
<20:56:37>	<Acheron>	in this case the middle byte is D1
<20:56:42>	<Rakki>	Yeah.
<20:56:49>	D1 is for Y 00 of the room.
<20:56:54>	<Acheron>	ok now I'm reall confused because
<20:56:59>	<BlackTelomeres>	dont doors use
<20:57:01>	2
<20:57:03>	bytes
<20:57:05>	or whatever
<20:57:06>	<Rakki>	No.
<20:57:08>	<Acheron>	each line of code in bank $83 is one door
<20:57:09>	<BlackTelomeres>	bits boops
<20:57:13>	<Acheron>	no, that's doorout pointer
<20:57:17>	each door uses ~14 bytes
<20:57:20>	sometimes more
<20:57:22>	<BlackTelomeres>	no i mean
<20:57:23>	the ROOM
<20:57:25>	portion
<20:57:27>	<Rakki>	It uses the door out pointer, the address of the specific door you go through, as a pointer for which sky data to use.
<20:57:28>	<BlackTelomeres>	is only 2 bytes
<20:57:41>	<--still doesnt know exactly what a byte is
<20:57:43>	<Acheron>	so wouldn't that mean you'd need
<20:57:49>	one of these lines of code for
<20:57:51>	each door?
	<Rakki>	Or, not the pointer for the sky, but rather, which section of the BG_Data to use.
<20:57:57>	<BlackTelomeres>	the portion that tells you what room it leads to
	<Rakki>	Yes, you do, Acheron.
<20:58:03>	<Acheron>	ok
<20:58:04>	<BlackTelomeres>	WTF
<20:58:06>	<Acheron>	that makes sense then
<20:58:07>	<BlackTelomeres>	thats A LOT NEGRO
<20:58:08>	<Rakki>	So if you add doors to the Landing Site, you have to relocate BG_Data.
<20:58:15>	<BlackTelomeres>	ugh
<20:58:17>	<Rakki>	But if you just edit, you can just edit.
<20:58:24>	<BlackTelomeres>	Jathys pweez make easier fix 4 us
<20:58:31>	<Acheron>	so actually
<20:58:35>	<Rakki>	In either case, both banks $83 and $8F need the same address free for this to work.
<20:58:36>	<BlackTelomeres>	WE ARE SO FUCKED
<20:58:42>	oh god
<20:58:44>	<Acheron>	this helps me understand what the BG_data pointer points to
<20:58:45>	<BlackTelomeres>	WE ARE SO FUCKED
<20:58:51>	if you make 90 scrolling sky rooms
<20:58:57>	then you need to copy
<20:59:00>	the bgdata pointer
<20:59:06>	into many diff spots
<20:59:08>	<Acheron>	BG_data points to some code, THEN another pointer to graphical data?
<20:59:10>	is that right?
	<BlackTelomeres>	with the doorcode diff
<20:59:19>	<Acheron>	I always thought it was just a direct pointer, but I never checked
	<Rakki>	Yeah.
<20:59:20>	Well.
<20:59:25>	<BlackTelomeres>	RakkI: is this true?
<20:59:28>	like GD
<20:59:36>	<Rakki>	BG_Data uses the Door code of the specific door you went through to determine which line of code in BG_Data to load.
	<BlackTelomeres>	it has over 9000 scrolling sky rooms
<20:59:42>	wach with diff numbers of doors
<20:59:59>	WACH
<21:00:03>	eACH
<21:00:04>	<Rakki>	So, yes.
<21:00:05>	<Acheron>	lols
<21:00:09>	lrn2type
<21:00:17>	<BlackTelomeres>	WACHT VEIN EISENBURG
<21:00:20>	<Acheron>	so okay
<21:00:22>	the actual fix then
<21:00:24>	<BlackTelomeres>	so jathys cant make
<21:00:26>	<Rakki>	The first two bytes in the scrolling sky room are 0E 00 to denote that it's determining which section of BG_Data to use.
<21:00:27>	<BlackTelomeres>	a fix for this easily
<21:00:29>	at all
<21:00:31>	<Acheron>	is to copy that code, and change the door pointer, yes?
<21:00:46>	<Rakki>	The second two are the address of the door code of the door that links to the scrolling sky room.
<21:00:47>	<BlackTelomeres>	hed need a lot of free space
<21:00:49>	<Acheron>	would it always be 0E00 for doors?
<21:00:55>	<Rakki>	Because that determines to use that line of pointers for the background.
<21:01:03>	And the next three bytes are the background data to load.
	<Acheron>	or is that affected by height and such?
<21:01:22>	ok
<21:01:24>	<Rakki>	The low byte and bank being 80 and 8A respectively in the Landing Site, and the middle byte being different for which screen Y to link to.
<21:01:28>	<Acheron>	so if I made a new door what would I need to change
<21:01:34>	one new door in the landing site
<21:01:49>	I change the door pointer and the middle byte
<21:01:50>	anything else?
<21:01:58>	<Rakki>	Well ADDING a door to the landing site, you'd have to relocate BG_Data to some free space in $8F so you could add a line to it.
<21:02:05>	<Acheron>	oh fuck
<21:02:06>	BT
<21:02:08>	look what bank its in
<21:02:11>	GOOD TIMES
	<BlackTelomeres>	scrolling sky
<21:02:14>	<Rakki>	Well those are the only two bytes that should need changed.
<21:02:15>	<BlackTelomeres>	what bank?
<21:02:17>	8F
<21:02:18>	?
<21:02:19>	<Acheron>	yup
<21:02:21>	8F
<21:02:24>	what
<21:02:30>	oh yeah you don't use +/- stuff much
<21:02:31>	<Rakki>	That 00 48 marks what section of RAM to store the background to.
<21:02:32>	<BlackTelomeres>	doesnt matter, i dont intend to use scrolling sky for
<21:02:35>	<Acheron>	bank 8F is so crammed
<21:02:37>	<BlackTelomeres>	my huge hack
<21:02:39>	<Acheron>	fucking
<21:02:40>	<Rakki>	It's most often 00 48, so it should always work with that.
<21:02:44>	<interdpth>	XD
<21:02:46>	<Acheron>	plms, fx, bg stuff
<21:02:47>	all in one bank
<21:02:48>	<BlackTelomeres>	i do intend to add enemies nsuch
<21:02:50>	<interdpth>	I totally read hack as crac
<21:02:51>	k
<21:02:59>	<BlackTelomeres>	and plms i dont really need to add
<21:03:02>	much anyway
<21:03:11>	<Rakki>	00 08 should be the same, regardless. It's the size of the background, and 0800 bytes in size is one full screen.
<21:03:12>	<BlackTelomeres>	just enough extra fx1s so the redfx1s work
<21:03:13>	<Acheron>	my bank $8F in Aegis has like
<21:03:17>	$500 bytes left
<21:03:19>	I'm getting nervous
<21:03:29>	<BlackTelomeres>	Acheron you nervous nelly
<21:03:34>	<Acheron>	scroll data
<21:03:37>	takes up a lot
<21:03:43>	<BlackTelomeres>	if you didnt make huge rooms
<21:03:49>	and used more of the ones that are given to you
<21:03:51>	youd be fine
<21:03:55>	<Rakki>	I didn't mention WHAT to change that background pointer to, though, Acheron. =P
<21:04:01>	<Acheron>	blargh
<21:04:03>	-->|	bioniclegenius (0cd8fccc@metroid2002.com) has joined #jzd
<21:04:10>	<BlackTelomeres>	we are so fucked with SS
<21:04:12>	<Acheron>	hurhhhh
	<interdpth>	HHAH
<21:04:13>	<Rakki>	Oops. I made a mistake a little bit ago, also.
<21:04:14>	<interdpth>	LEGO GENIUS
<21:04:15>	<BlackTelomeres>	theres no way
<21:04:17>	<bioniclegenius>	I have another question lol
<21:04:25>	<BlackTelomeres>	Jathys will be able tofix this easily
	<bioniclegenius>	what's the ship classified as>
<21:04:30>	does anyone know?
<21:04:33>	<BlackTelomeres>	enemy
<21:04:37>	<Rakki>	B1 is for a screen Y of 00.
<21:04:38>	<BlackTelomeres>	or plm
<21:04:43>	rightclick on it
<21:04:45>	<Acheron>	enemy I thought
<21:04:55>	<bioniclegenius>	really?
<21:04:56>	ok
<21:04:57>	<Acheron>	it has no collision detection though
<21:04:58>	<Rakki>	B9 for 01, C1 for 02, C9 for 03, D1 for 04.
<21:07:04>	<Rakki>	The important things are just that the second word needs changed to match the address of the door (in bank $83) that you're going through, so it will know to load the following background data when the room loads, and what to change the high byte of the background pointer to.
<21:11:55>	<Rakki>	Hmm. Maybe I should've added that that segment of code I posted needs to be part of the Landing Site's BG_Data pointers, otherwise, the sky will be messed up when you do an SRAM load.
<21:12:25>	<Rakki>	Also, 0E 00 FE 88 80 B1 8A 00 48 00 08 is used for Landing.
<21:13:24>	<Rakki>	Those two need to be in place because I don't know what the heck you would change to change what's in A when the game loads, which is what's being read for what part of BG_Data to use, and, well, the same for when the ship lands I guess.[/spoiler]

Deep_Space_Observer

2008-07-25 09:50:38 pm

How do I add tile space to a room? (79A44 in particular)

Acheron

2008-07-25 10:31:16 pm

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

Quote from Deep_Space_Observer:

How do I add tile space to a room? (79A44 in particular)

Hex times are fun times. Okay here's the guide AGAIN I can't find it with the search function for some reason.

~-| 3.5 Increasing Room Size Limits |-~ ~[Acheron86]~

If you're tired of running out of space for a room, there's a cure. You'll just need some free space in the SMC to work with. SMILE has an option for expanding ROM space, so that's the best way to get some more room. The banks created by the "expand ROM" option will start at E0 and go on from there. A single bank is good enough for at least a dozen large rooms, so let's just expand it once for now.
What you'll want to do next is open up the room you want to edit and pull up the pointers window. Change the Level Data pointer to point to free space. For your first new room, this would be E08000 (300000 in hex). Note this is E0-8-000 and not E0-0-000! Pointers will never have anything below 8000 in the second two bytes! As long as you make sure you're above 8000 for the bytes after the bank, go ahead and save, and you'll see right away that your size limit has changed to some ridiculous value. You can now edit to your heart's content and not worry a smidgen about silly room size issues.
There is one more thing you should do, though, and that's add this room to the "level_entries" text file for SMILE, stored under the Smile/files folder. Add its hex location (300000) at the end of the file. This will make sure that SMILE keeps you from overwriting other rooms.
Any time you decide to do this to rooms hereafter, you'll need to take an extra step and open up your ROM in a hex editor. Check where the free space begins after your new room at the very end of the ROM, so that you're not overwriting your first new room with your second one. If your new room goes from hex address 300000 to 301200, you'll want to use an address somewhere else. If you want to leave yourself a few hundred bytes in case you decide to edit the old first room later on, You should pick an address like 301400. Plug that into your pointer window to see what the pointer for that location should be (in this case, it's E09400, again, NOT E01400, as that's not above 8000!). Put this value into your Level Data pointer, and save. Don't forget to add this room's hex address (301400) to the "level_entries" file!

[quote="Deep_Space_Observer"]
How do I add tile space to a room? (79A44 in particular)
[/quote]

Hex times are fun times. Okay here's the guide AGAIN I can't find it with the search function for some reason.

~-| 3.5 Increasing Room Size Limits |-~ ~[Acheron86]~

If you're tired of running out of space for a room, there's a cure. You'll just need some free space in the SMC to work with. SMILE has an option for expanding ROM space, so that's the best way to get some more room. The banks created by the "expand ROM" option will start at E0 and go on from there. A single bank is good enough for at least a dozen large rooms, so let's just expand it once for now.
   What you'll want to do next is open up the room you want to edit and pull up the pointers window. Change the Level Data pointer to point to free space. For your first new room, this would be E08000 (300000 in hex). Note this is E0-8-000 and not E0-0-000! Pointers will never have anything below 8000 in the second two bytes! As long as you make sure you're above 8000 for the bytes after the bank, go ahead and save, and you'll see right away that your size limit has changed to some ridiculous value. You can now edit to your heart's content and not worry a smidgen about silly room size issues.
   There is one more thing you should do, though, and that's add this room to the "level_entries" text file for SMILE, stored under the Smile/files folder. Add its hex location (300000) at the end of the file. This will make sure that SMILE keeps you from overwriting other rooms.
   Any time you decide to do this to rooms hereafter, you'll need to take an extra step and open up your ROM in a hex editor. Check where the free space begins after your new room at the very end of the ROM, so that you're not overwriting your first new room with your second one. If your new room goes from hex address 300000 to 301200, you'll want to use an address somewhere else. If you want to leave yourself a few hundred bytes in case you decide to edit the old first room later on, You should pick an address like 301400. Plug that into your pointer window to see what the pointer for that location should be (in this case, it's E09400, again, NOT E01400, as that's not above 8000!). Put this value into your Level Data pointer, and save. Don't forget to add this room's hex address (301400) to the "level_entries" file!