[SM] The generic tileset idea

2009-01-06 12:37:29 pm

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

-(All ideas in this post are for Super Metroid)-
This is a bit of a side project I have been thinking of doing.

The main idea was to make it easy for people to get GFX in their hacks with out having to map it out and be able to design an area then switch tile set and it still works decently.

The idea is that there is one tileset style as in this how the tiles are set up in the GFX files. And an patch that makes all areas in the game (Or separated later) have mapped out the tiles.
By all means this makes it a bit harder for people who design the GFX files and/or the GFX. But it will make it much easier for every one who is designing hacks.
For example, say you just started making an cave styled area. But there are no good cave GFX files made at that point. This would make it very hard to design the area! But if people use this system you could start designing and then when you find a file you like you just load it in with an given palette file.
Not only makes this you're work faster it will also makes it easier. And even more easier if you want to make group hacks! (Which should be done more.)

This is all good right?
Well here comes the but.
Some one have to set up the tile design for all the tile sets in SM. (In GFX files) And make the map16 patches and so on.
Sound like a lot of work right? Well I be doing it myself any way so don't bother. (Unless you want to help that is! :3 )

Then why the topic?
Well I would like some feed back on the idea. Is this a system people want to use? It will be more work for the people who makes GFX files but overall it will speed up time spent on makeing hacks and more hacks will use quality GFX. (That is not to say that the GFX in SM is bad. But we all love variation.)

I would also like some suggestions on how to set up the generic GFX file. How do the GFX makers (beside my self) want it to look? (Note: this question is only directed to people who draw or rip GFX)

I guess that be all for now.
Note one thing though. Even if this project kicks of. Don't expect it all to be done over night.

Thread title:

-(All ideas in this post are for Super Metroid)-
This is a bit of a side project I have been thinking of doing.

The main idea was to make it easy for people to get GFX in their hacks with out having to map it out and be able to design an area then switch tile set and it still works decently.

The idea is that there is one tileset style as in this how the tiles are set up in the GFX files. And an patch that makes all areas in the game (Or separated later) have mapped out the tiles.
By all means this makes it a bit harder for people who design the GFX files and/or the GFX. But it will make it much easier for every one who is designing hacks.
For example, say you just started making an cave styled area. But there are no good cave GFX files made at that point. This would make it very hard to design the area! But if people use this system you could start designing and then when you find a file you like you just load it in with an given palette file.
Not only makes this you're work faster it will also makes it easier. And even more easier if you want to make group hacks! (Which should be done more.)

This is all good right?
Well here comes the but.
Some one have to set up the tile design for all the tile sets in SM. (In GFX files) And make the map16 patches and so on.
Sound like a lot of work right? Well I be doing it myself any way so don't bother. (Unless you want to help that is! :3 )

Then why the topic?
Well I would like some feed back on the idea. Is this a system people want to use? It will be more work for the people who makes GFX files but overall it will speed up time spent on makeing hacks and more hacks will use quality GFX. (That is not to say that the GFX in SM is bad. But we all love variation.)

I would also like some suggestions on how to set up the generic GFX file. How do the GFX makers (beside my self) want it to look? (Note: this question is only directed to people who draw or rip GFX)

I guess that be all for now.
Note one thing though. Even if this project kicks of. Don't expect it all to be done over night.

Quietus

2009-01-06 03:03:12 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I don't know enough to be able to help with the project at all, but the idea sounds great if you ask me. Very Happy

Bioniclegenius

2009-01-06 05:53:14 pm

Fear Me! (Or else...)

Also, if someone with enough ASM knowledge, like maybe Kej or somebody, could figure out a way to combine all the tilesets into one, and then leave some room at the end with blank tiles so we could add our own, and maybe Jathys could help SMILE read that large a tileset, if it doesn't already, then that would be very nice. Unfortunately, backgrounds would be a problem, but Jathys could change the tileset option so it chooses which tileset to read from with the background, and things like that. That would fit in nicely, and those extra tiles would help out a lot, too. I think just combining the tilesets would be hard, but once you have that, then you just have to repoint the addresses where the rom looks to for tiles in to start at different points in the single large tileset. Could that work, maybe? It'd also make switching tilesets completely unnecessary, because there's just one. As far as I can see, that may be a complicated solution, but the best one in the end. Makes everything nicer and easier to reach, and you can have a different tileset for the room than the background, or even several in the room. Mind you, this is just an idea for you, before you get too far in this, but if it doesn't sound good, then go ahead.

GF_Kennon

2009-01-06 06:06:20 pm

Destroyer of Pirates

why do i suddenly feel pressured. *looks at hoard of GFX files*

Crys

Edit history:

Crys: 2009-01-06 06:23:48 pm

2009-01-06 06:20:10 pm

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

Quote from Bioniclegenius:

Also, if someone with enough ASM knowledge, like maybe Kej or somebody, could figure out a way to combine all the tilesets into one, and then leave some room at the end with blank tiles so we could add our own, and maybe Jathys could help SMILE read that large a tileset, if it doesn't already, then that would be very nice. Unfortunately, backgrounds would be a problem, but Jathys could change the tileset option so it chooses which tileset to read from with the background, and things like that. That would fit in nicely, and those extra tiles would help out a lot, too. I think just combining the tilesets would be hard, but once you have that, then you just have to repoint the addresses where the rom looks to for tiles in to start at different points in the single large tileset. Could that work, maybe? It'd also make switching tilesets completely unnecessary, because there's just one. As far as I can see, that may be a complicated solution, but the best one in the end. Makes everything nicer and easier to reach, and you can have a different tileset for the room than the background, or even several in the room. Mind you, this is just an idea for you, before you get too far in this, but if it doesn't sound good, then go ahead.

We are not combining tile sets. The idea is to make one standard layout.

Let me make it simpler for you. Say if you change tile set from 1/2 (crateria) to say number 4. Every thing in that area would look glitchy no?
With this idea it would not look glitchy as every thing would match up. (slopes on slopes, etc) Beside the area specific tiles that is.
Note that the above example assumes that you load a new GFX file and not just change area type

Also just for the heck of it. Loading that much GFX as you suggest in your idea is insane. Not only is it not needed I'm quite sure it will take a long time to load it.

[quote="Bioniclegenius"]
Also, if someone with enough ASM knowledge, like maybe Kej or somebody, could figure out a way to combine all the tilesets into one, and then leave some room at the end with blank tiles so we could add our own, and maybe Jathys could help SMILE read that large a tileset, if it doesn't already, then that would be very nice. Unfortunately, backgrounds would be a problem, but Jathys could change the tileset option so it chooses which tileset to read from with the background, and things like that. That would fit in nicely, and those extra tiles would help out a lot, too. I think just combining the tilesets would be hard, but once you have that, then you just have to repoint the addresses where the rom looks to for tiles in to start at different points in the single large tileset. Could that work, maybe? It'd also make switching tilesets completely unnecessary, because there's just one. As far as I can see, that may be a complicated solution, but the best one in the end. Makes everything nicer and easier to reach, and you can have a different tileset for the room than the background, or even several in the room. Mind you, this is just an idea for you, before you get too far in this, but if it doesn't sound good, then go ahead.
[/quote]

We are not combining tile sets. The idea is to make one standard layout.

Let me make it simpler for you. Say if you change tile set from 1/2 (crateria) to say number 4. Every thing in that area would look glitchy no?
With this idea it would not look glitchy as every thing would match up. (slopes on slopes, etc) Beside the area specific tiles that is.
[size=8pt]Note that the above example assumes that you load a new GFX file and not just change area type[/size]

Also just for the heck of it. Loading that much GFX as you suggest in your idea is insane. Not only is it not needed I'm quite sure it will take a long time to load it.

Bioniclegenius

2009-01-06 06:27:25 pm

Fear Me! (Or else...)

Oh, well. It was worth a shot. Also, if you want some help with this, I'd be glad to.

Sadiztik Fish

2009-01-07 06:04:35 am

OMG FLAN!!!!!!!

I love you Crys. wub

But...

How can that be done? Every single tile from every tileset would need to be remade so that they all take the same box from the tilesheet. THEN every single tilesheet would need to be reorganised so that all slopes go together; all air tiles together, and so on. Then there's the problem that the tiletable has different white X positions for each tileset.

This seems like an impossible amount of work. If you can get this done, I'd salute you. Well I'll salute you now for just coming up with the idea.

Ok there's no salute smiley, so have a cookie instead. cookie

devonodev

2009-01-07 06:19:28 am

Devonodev: Other D

This is a really good idea. But I wouldn't want to be doing it.
Good Luck!

SleepingSeaweed

2009-01-07 10:58:03 am

I think it will be very hard to get this to work because of how different the tile sets are. If you're using custom made GFX then you will probably be building everything from scratch anyway, so it doesn't really matter if the rooms look glitchy at first. And since the method to keep the background information within the level data (rather than being read from a different location) is common knowledge by now, backgrounds won't be a problem either.

For group hacks (I also think there should be more of these) you would start with making sure all custom GFX files are imported, map them out to 16x16 blocks and then make a patch of it. Then people could start designing levels.

To me it seems like a better idea to make people realize how simple it really is to get custom graphic sets ready to make levels from. That way, the glitchy mess that appears whenever you change tile set or import custom graphics won't as easily scare hackers away from using them.

Tyjet66

2009-01-07 04:24:41 pm

What'd you say?

This sounds like an awesome idea, i would love to see it in action, although i regret that i'm not skilled enough to really help at all...

Crys

2009-01-07 04:50:39 pm

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

Quote from SleepingSeaweed:

I think it will be very hard to get this to work because of how different the tile sets are. If you're using custom made GFX then you will probably be building everything from scratch anyway, so it doesn't really matter if the rooms look glitchy at first. And since the method to keep the background information within the level data (rather than being read from a different location) is common knowledge by now, backgrounds won't be a problem either.

Well yes. There are different styles such as the zero mission/fusion style that uses one tile above the ground tile to make it stick out.

Also again this system is not meant to make it easier for the makers of the GFX. Only to speed it up in insertion time and not force the level designer to map out 16x16 blocks (Map16) for every file inserted.
And hell, under a system like this you might waste a lot of tile space in the GFX files for some types of tile sets. But I really want to see more custom/ripped GFX in hacks. And people who want to save space will have to fix up the files that could have more space. I can't make this do the work for you. I can only make an easier system.
This may limits some drawers/rippers but honestly setting up GFX in the way mzm does may look nice. But it won't be easy or fast to work with when level designing.
(And that would be another reason I don't like to hack mzm or fusion. More credits for the mzm/fusion hackers! :P )

Quote from Sadiztik Fish:

How can that be done? Every single tile from every tileset would need to be remade so that they all take the same box from the tilesheet. THEN every single tilesheet would need to be reorganised so that all slopes go together; all air tiles together, and so on. Then there's the problem that the tiletable has different white X positions for each tileset.

The green part is what I'm doing. While I still have to fix up the tiletable or as I call it map16. I don't need to make all from all areas match up. If you want a new GFX file for that area you just load it via the GFX editor and it will take up the same tiles as the last GFX file with out having to map it out. (You would also have to load a palette file.)

[quote="SleepingSeaweed"]
I think it will be very hard to get this to work because of how different the tile sets are. If you're using custom made GFX then you will probably be building everything from scratch anyway, so it doesn't really matter if the rooms look glitchy at first. And since the method to keep the background information within the level data (rather than being read from a different location) is common knowledge by now, backgrounds won't be a problem either. 
[/quote]
Well yes. There are different styles such as the zero mission/fusion style that uses one tile above the ground tile to make it stick out.

Also again this system is not meant to make it easier for the makers of the GFX. Only to speed it up in insertion time and not force the level designer to map out 16x16 blocks (Map16) for every file inserted.
And hell, under a system like this you might waste a lot of tile space in the GFX files for some types of tile sets. But I really want to see more custom/ripped GFX in hacks. And people who want to save space will have to fix up the files that could have more space. I can't make this do the work for you. I can only make an easier system.
This may limits some drawers/rippers but honestly setting up GFX in the way mzm does may look nice. But it won't be easy or fast to work with when level designing.
(And that would be another reason I don't like to hack mzm or fusion. More credits for the mzm/fusion hackers! :P )
[quote="Sadiztik Fish"]
[color=green]How can that be done? Every single tile from every tileset would need to be remade so that they all take the same box from the tilesheet.[/color] THEN every single tilesheet would need to be reorganised so that all slopes go together; all air tiles together, and so on. Then there's the problem that the tiletable has different white X positions for each tileset. [/quote]
The green part is what I'm doing. While I still have to fix up the tiletable or as I call it map16. I don't need to make all from all areas match up. If you want a new GFX file for that area you just load it via the GFX editor and it will take up the same tiles as the last GFX file with out having to map it out. (You would also have to load a palette file.)

Bioniclegenius

2009-01-07 10:09:02 pm

Fear Me! (Or else...)

Btw, are you rearranging those white xx boxes? Because I'm not sure how you'd do that. Also, do you want me to help at all? I can't do ASM, or hex, but I can rearrange the graphics for you.