Single Segment - Allow Nova Beam Wallcrawl?

2015-07-03 01:16:59 am

Yes is the overwhelming tally. So, I guess it's allowed?

2015-07-03 01:50:39 am

I'm voting no even though I know my vote won't change the result.

Single segment has had a specific definition in this series for over a decade: no dying and no reloading saves. Why should it be different now just because there's a trick that lets you save time by dying and reloading a save?

If this were RTA then obviously I'd be all for it since there are no restrictions on dying or reloading saves in RTA.

tomatobob

2015-07-03 02:16:27 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Skull64:

Single segment has had a specific definition in this series for over a decade: no dying and no reloading saves. Why should it be different now just because there's a trick that lets you save time by dying and reloading a save?

I'm not too sure about that. Metroid games haven't had checkpoints before like Corruption does, dying was never really an option in a speedrun because it was a set back every time. In this case it isn't, you pop back to a checkpoint and continue on. If it doesn't effect the in game clock it seems like a standard death warp. Granted running these games has moved way beyond me but this seems fine to my scrub ass.

kirbymastah

2015-07-03 09:59:43 am

Quote from tomatobob:

Quote from Skull64:

Single segment has had a specific definition in this series for over a decade: no dying and no reloading saves. Why should it be different now just because there's a trick that lets you save time by dying and reloading a save?

I'm not too sure about that. Metroid games haven't had checkpoints before like Corruption does, dying was never really an option in a speedrun because it was a set back every time. In this case it isn't, you pop back to a checkpoint and continue on. If it doesn't effect the in game clock it seems like a standard death warp. Granted running these games has moved way beyond me but this seems fine to my scrub ass.

The IGT is affected. Barely, and not enough that anyone cares, but it is. As i mentioned before, the time between hitting the checkpoint (i.e. getting nova) and killing yourself is gone when abusing the checkpoint. Granted this is basically 0 if they simultaneously happen like in parax's video, and if they don't, nobody really cares about how quickly you kill yourself.

[quote="tomatobob"][quote="Skull64"]Single segment has had a specific definition in this series for over a decade: no dying and no reloading saves. Why should it be different now just because there's a trick that lets you save time by dying and reloading a save?[/quote]
I'm not too sure about that. Metroid games haven't had checkpoints before like Corruption does, dying was never really an option in a speedrun because it was a set back every time. In this case it isn't, you pop back to a checkpoint and continue on.[b] If it doesn't effect the in game clock it seems like a standard death warp[/b]. Granted running these games has moved way beyond me but this seems fine to my scrub ass.[/quote]

The IGT is affected. Barely, and not enough that anyone cares, but it is. As i mentioned before, the time between hitting the checkpoint (i.e. getting nova) and killing yourself is gone when abusing the checkpoint. Granted this is basically 0 if they simultaneously happen like in parax's video, and if they don't, nobody really cares about how quickly you kill yourself.

Hazel

2015-07-03 11:16:32 am

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

I just feel like it's really stupid to not allow something that saves time because it violates a rule put in place for a different reason entirely. If you consider the time it takes to die after activating the check to be "pausing" the in-game timer briefly, then that's completely legit and allowed in many runs on SDA. Sonic Adventure 2 for example uses glitches and also deaths to pause the in-game timer, and the time spent during that is not calculated in SDA timing. It's not "not single segment" because you died to save time in that game.

Again, not that we should be comparing this game to others. We should just make our own rules for it that make sense, and saying a speed trick isn't allowed in single segment does not make sense.

Aruki

2015-07-03 12:44:23 pm

The problem with reloading from checkpoints is that you can use it to redo sections of the game without it counting on the timer. This is pretty clearly a different thing entirely - the checkpoint spawns you further in the game, not earlier, and you only reload from it once. I think it would be really silly to disallow it on such a minor technicality.

JustinDM

2015-07-03 02:29:42 pm

So is that a yes from you, parax?

tomatobob

Edit history:

tomatobob: 2015-07-03 03:48:10 pm

2015-07-03 03:46:18 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from kirbymastah:

The IGT is affected. Barely, and not enough that anyone cares, but it is.

I was thinking something along the lines of like Metroid 2's thing where saving/loading does weird things to the timer, where the clock becomes obviously unreliable. If the effect is super minor then I mean yeah, who cares really. As long as you're not dying and reloading a checkpoint over and over to optimize a part of the game. The only way anyone's getting away with abusing the system is with video editing and that's not a new issue.

kirbymastah

2015-07-03 05:53:15 pm

well, M2's timer is just flat out bad. It arbitrarily drops IGT seconds in transitions (i.e. if it's supposed to count up during a transition, it doesn't) :P

MLSTRM

Edit history:

MLSTRM: 2015-08-13 08:43:20 am

2015-08-13 08:30:45 am

I'm thinking it's time to bump this since it was never really decided either way?

As it stands, I think it should be allowed, since it doesn't act the same as a traditional death segmentation, you aren't repeating the same portion of the game to do it better.
However, at the moment on the leaderboards, the rules state: "The run must be single-segment; in other words the run must be done in one sitting, and dying or reloading saves is not allowed." - Which blanket bans the use of the Nova beam wallcrawl due to the mandatory death.

If all the people that are running the game think that it should be allowed, then we should let it happen, especially now since more people are actually going for it and achieving it in runs, and it's likely that it will only grow in usage not only for Any%, but for 100% also

TheOthin

2015-08-13 08:43:43 am

Ingame time is, by definition, not an exact match for real time. There are things it doesn't account for, and this is one of them. Although making a simple and consistent rule that doesn't allow simply retrying other parts of the game could be tricky, but if anything that's an argument against the accuracy of the ingame timer rather than against the legitimacy of the trick.

Skull64

2015-08-13 09:53:08 am

The way I see it (and I recognize that most of my opinions on timing are not shared with the rest of the community), there are three valid options.

Option 1: use the traditional definition of SS, which doesn't allow deaths or reloads for any reason.

Option 2: allow death warps, but switch to RTA.

Option 3: Allow the one specific death warp, but don't use the SS name.

The definition of "single-segment" has been abundantly clear for over a decade: no dying, no reloading from saves. The category you guys are all advocating for is not single-segment. If these are the rules you really want to use, I'll be happy to change the rules text to reflect that, but I will refuse to continue calling it single-segment.

MLSTRM

2015-08-13 10:26:43 am

Yeah that's fair enough skull, I agree with what you've said.

I personally think that the best solution is going to be some kind of middle ground, just because:
1) We're going for SS style runs, but allowing this deathwarp, breaking the segment
2) We're doing the runs RTA, but still want to compare using in-game time
3) We're doing the run in 2 "segments" due to the death, but it's not a segmented attempt in the same way real segmented runs are done.

Perhaps the best way to go is to take out the rule on deaths from the category, stop referring to it as SS, since its not really, but don't call it RTA since we're still using IGT.
I'm ok with leaving in the no reloading saves though, since it enforces a rough RTA timeframe onto the run, and we can still track both of RTA and IGT on the leaderboards.
Does this sound reasonable skull? (And everyone else feel free to contribute)

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-08-13 10:34:55 am

2015-08-13 10:29:41 am

Quote from Skull64:

The definition of "single-segment" has been abundantly clear for over a decade: no dying, no reloading from saves. The category you guys are all advocating for is not single-segment. If these are the rules you really want to use, I'll be happy to change the rules text to reflect that, but I will refuse to continue calling it single-segment.

I call absolute bullshit on this. The only reason we say no dying is because we're too lazy to say the full thing.

Keep in mind that Single Segment with Resets is recognized as a thing on SDA. I see no reason for this to not be considered SS.

EDIT: To clarify: Single Segment = you are not allowed to redo segments of the game for no time cost.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2015-08-13 10:39:43 am

2015-08-13 10:39:26 am

Are there any other (non-Metroid) games that have had this sort of conflict between IGT and death warps? If so, their example may be helpful.

Skull64

Edit history:

Skull64: 2015-08-13 11:03:18 am

2015-08-13 10:56:00 am

Quote from MLSTRM:

Does this sound reasonable skull? (And everyone else feel free to contribute)

That sounds pretty reasonable. But if we take out the rule on deaths, what prevents someone from dying in a different place and reloading from a different checkpoint? (If that is even something that can happen)

Quote from TheOthin:

Are there any other (non-Metroid) games that have had this sort of conflict between IGT and death warps? If so, their example may be helpful.

I don't know of any such instances.

But as a side note, I'll say that every time I have attempted to discuss what other games' communities have done with their timing conundrums, I have been shot down by comments such as "I don't care what they do in other games."

TheMG2

2015-08-14 01:03:16 am

I still see the category as single segment and think it can still be referred to as such.

Aruki

2015-08-14 11:13:26 am

Quote from Skull64:

The way I see it (and I recognize that most of my opinions on timing are not shared with the rest of the community), there are three valid options.

Option 1: use the traditional definition of SS, which doesn't allow deaths or reloads for any reason.

Option 2: allow death warps, but switch to RTA.

Option 3: Allow the one specific death warp, but don't use the SS name.

The definition of "single-segment" has been abundantly clear for over a decade: no dying, no reloading from saves. The category you guys are all advocating for is not single-segment. If these are the rules you really want to use, I'll be happy to change the rules text to reflect that, but I will refuse to continue calling it single-segment.

I call bullshit on this too. It is absolutely still SS. Death abuse has not been considered a separate category to any extent for AGES and SS with resets has also been a thing for ages. The entire reason those limitations were removed from those categories was because they were overly restrictive and there was no good reason for them to exist. IMO to take this trick and say it prevents a run from being considered single-segment requires you to ignore the entire reason why the segmentation rules exist in the first place! The purpose for them is to prevent you from redoing a section of the game over and over during a "single-segment" run, and that does not apply in the slightest when we're talking about a situation where A. the death/reload is unavoidable, B. is only performed once, C. barely resets the timer, if at all, D. warps you forward in the game instead of backwards, and E. is still faster IGT even if the death/reload is completely factored out.

Quote from Skull64:

That sounds pretty reasonable. But if we take out the rule on deaths, what prevents someone from dying in a different place and reloading from a different checkpoint? (If that is even something that can happen)

Easy. You ban intentional deaths that are done for the purpose of redoing parts of the game in order to optimize them. I think that's a pretty clear rule and it doesn't ban tricks that have no valid reason to be banned.

[quote="Skull64"]The way I see it (and I recognize that most of my opinions on timing are not shared with the rest of the community), there are three valid options.

Option 1: use the traditional definition of SS, which doesn't allow deaths or reloads for any reason.

Option 2: allow death warps, but switch to RTA.

Option 3: Allow the one specific death warp, but don't use the SS name.

The definition of "single-segment" has been abundantly clear for over a decade: no dying, no reloading from saves. The category you guys are all advocating for is not single-segment. If these are the rules you really want to use, [u]I'll be happy to change the rules text to reflect that, but I will refuse to continue calling it single-segment[/u].[/quote]

I call bullshit on this too. It is absolutely still SS. Death abuse has not been considered a separate category to any extent for AGES and SS with resets has also been a thing for ages. The entire reason those limitations were removed from those categories was because they were overly restrictive and there was no good reason for them to exist. IMO to take this trick and say it prevents a run from being considered single-segment requires you to ignore the entire reason why the segmentation rules exist in the first place! The purpose for them is to prevent you from redoing a section of the game over and over during a "single-segment" run, and that does not apply in the slightest when we're talking about a situation where A. the death/reload is unavoidable, B. is only performed once, C. barely resets the timer, if at all, D. warps you [i]forward[/i] in the game instead of backwards, and E. is [i]still[/i] faster IGT even if the death/reload is completely factored out.

[quote="Skull64"]That sounds pretty reasonable. But if we take out the rule on deaths, what prevents someone from dying in a different place and reloading from a different checkpoint? (If that is even something that can happen)[/quote]

Easy. You ban intentional deaths that are done for the purpose of redoing parts of the game in order to optimize them. I think that's a pretty clear rule and it doesn't ban tricks that have no valid reason to be banned.

Skull64

2015-08-15 04:09:51 pm

Alright I guess you guys are right. I have added a sentence declaring that this is allowed. Let me know if you think I should change the wording.