"Sequence breaking" (SPLIT) [locked]

nn12000

2006-02-10 09:05:32 pm

Mister ...

Heh, I wish I could beat the game in 24 minutes. that would own.

Sorry, but I'm using the GBA Cartridge Zero mission, and unless I use my Digital Camera to take pics, than sorry, no proof. But I'm sure I could work something out...
On the easy 90%, I managed to defeat Ridley before Kraid. Not uncommon, but it's the first time I've ever really sequence breaked. All I was trying to do was get high jump, then I realized, oops.

Thread title:

BioSpark

2006-02-10 09:12:09 pm

Quote from nn12000:

On the easy 90%, I managed to defeat Ridley before Kraid. Not uncommon, but it's the first time I've ever really sequence breaked.

I dont consider it a sequence break, considering that Nintendo intended for people to be able to get to Ridley early, although it is hard to find out how.

transience

2006-02-10 09:12:17 pm

twenty eight fifty

before saber or some of my other purist brethren move in for the kill, i will mention that it's not much of a "sequence break" when the sequence is programmed in (in this case, a missile block). the zipskip would be a sequence break, but an alternate route is something else.

edit: too late. that's what i get for going to buy some fritos.

nn12000

2006-02-10 09:18:44 pm

Mister ...

Ok, so it's not really a sequence break, I kinda consider it to be one because the Chozo's guide you to Kraid, then Ridley. I can't believe that I beat Ridley with only 4 energy tanks though, then again, it was easy mode.

One thing that I LOVED was killing Kraid with 3 super Missiles. (or however many it takes.)

BioSpark

2006-02-10 09:19:53 pm

I was thinking, didnt Nintendo also intend to make infinite bomb and wall jumping possible? Its fairly easy to figure out that it was possible to do those, so I believe Nintendo put those tricks in on purpose. This would also mean that some of the things on this site are not sequence breaks, but perhaps I'm wrong.

transience

2006-02-10 09:27:45 pm

twenty eight fifty

i have mentioned this to several people before, and i know nate is somewhat on my side - you'd have to be god damn stupid to leave a game as open as super metroid and not realize how easy it was to go out of sequence. the difference is that super metroid is apathetic towards following the sequence, while zero mission encourages you to go out of sequence.

nn12000

2006-02-10 09:42:08 pm

Mister ...

And I do agree, Following those damned Chozo Statues pinpoints kinda annoys the hell outta me. So, I figured that I would try to do it my way, since it was easy mode, no time run, since you get the same ending no matter what.

As for proof of my times, I'll have to redo Normal and Hard modes, since I 'deleted' my file to go for the Gold.

Ok, I've seen the video's for it, and I still cannot pull it off. How do you get past that first Pirate without being detected? I just can't do it. One thing that I'm going to try on another Easy run, have the pirates chase you the whole time, but try to not take damage. SHould prove difficult.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-10 09:43:44 pm

yeah i agree, SM is the very first metroid game that people started to SB. heck, you can use a reset glitch to collect all the items all over again! talk about too much sequence breaking. ZM is just something that can "encourage" you to SB, since most of the tricks you pull off in this game are harder than seen in SM. And it could also have something to do with how short ZM is.

Dark Knight: I agree, maybe in the beta stages, they had some rooms and possibly bosses that required to pull off a Infinite bomb jump. Maybe the Beta Kraid required a IBJ, and possible the Croc they were originally going to put in the game could of had a room that needed a single wall jump. One thing i dont get is, if Nintendo knew about sequence breaking, (as seen in Super Metroid)then why did they put the same tricks in ZM? Like the single wall jump, the IBJ. I mean, when i first got ZM, i didnt know about SB, and after the first few days, i started doing the single wall jump (but not the IBJ), and i didnt even know it was a SB trick! Its not that hard to find out these tricks Nintendo. Unless you just wanted to spoil us :o

yeah i agree, SM is the very first metroid game that people started to SB. heck, you can use a reset glitch to collect all the items all over again! talk about too much sequence breaking. ZM is just something that can "encourage" you to SB, since most of the tricks you pull off in this game are harder than seen in SM. And it could also have something to do with how short ZM is.

Dark Knight: I agree, maybe in the beta stages, they had some rooms and possibly bosses that required to pull off a Infinite bomb jump. Maybe the Beta Kraid required a IBJ, and possible the Croc they were originally going to put in the game could of had a room that needed a single wall jump. One thing i dont get is, if Nintendo knew about sequence breaking, (as seen in Super Metroid)then why did they put the same tricks in ZM? Like the single wall jump, the IBJ. I mean, when i first got ZM, i didnt know about SB, and after the first few days, i started doing the single wall jump (but not the IBJ), and i didnt even know it was a SB trick! Its not that hard to find out these tricks Nintendo. Unless you just wanted to spoil us :o

Chanoire

2006-02-10 10:12:18 pm

...

Walljumping is hardly the definition of sequence breaking. Some of the built-in shortcuts require single wall jumping. Why would you assume that all of this was somehow unintentional? They also clearly accounted for the bombjumping in that they made a totally arbitrary barrier preventing you from proceeding without the power grip. One of these days I'll figure out why; my best guess is for the Tourian escape, which would be a bitch without either power grip or highjump. Oh, I forgot to mention getting to the ship without speed booster, which takes bomb jumping.

IBJ is in one of the demo clips in SM, so it was hardly unknown. And you're taught how to walljump in SM, even though you only need it for two items at the most and both can be gotten with bombjumping. I think the existence of walljumping, which is needed for at most two items, proves the willingness of the SM developers to have their game rearranged on the fly. Actually, I think the blue gate near the bubble room in particular proves that, given its proximity to the wave beam, and also that there's a single pack of power bombs after Crocomire.

On what do you base your assumption that SM was the first Metroid to be broken? I'm sure people were doing weird things with the original Metroid long before that.

...

Walljumping is hardly the definition of sequence breaking.  Some of the built-in shortcuts require single wall jumping.  Why would you assume that all of this was somehow unintentional?  They also clearly accounted for the bombjumping in that they made a totally arbitrary barrier preventing you from proceeding without the power grip.  One of these days I'll figure out why; my best guess is for the Tourian escape, which would be a bitch without either power grip or highjump.  Oh, I forgot to mention getting to the ship without speed booster, which takes bomb jumping.

IBJ is in one of the demo clips in SM, so it was hardly unknown.  And you're taught how to walljump in SM, even though you only need it for two items at the most and both can be gotten with bombjumping.  I think the existence of walljumping, which is needed for at most two items, proves the willingness of the SM developers to have their game rearranged on the fly.  Actually, I think the blue gate near the bubble room in particular proves that, given its proximity to the wave beam, and also that there's a single pack of power bombs after Crocomire.

On what do you base your assumption that SM was the first Metroid to be broken?  I'm sure people were doing weird things with the original Metroid long before that.

transience

2006-02-10 10:16:36 pm

twenty eight fifty

two logical reasons:

1 - it is extremely easy to die in the lava before ice beam without power grip. (right after the barrier, in fact.) even top-notch players can mess this up, and it's one of the more fun rooms in a morph ball run.

2 - it takes a good walljumper to do suitless without gripping.

spineshark

2006-02-10 10:24:24 pm

in the name of justice!

I absolutely hate the idea of fighting MB without power grip, as I still firmly believe you'd be doomed as soon as you got hit at all.

Metroid 1 doesn't even have most of what I'd consider a "sequence"...the only real break that comes to mind outside of wall-standing is the hella-useful Tourian without Ridley. Though it's been a few months since I've played and all.

I thought Suitless Samus' grip was inherent...is it really tied to whether or not you have the item?

Yoshi348

2006-02-10 10:24:33 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from transience:

2 - it takes a good walljumper to do suitless without gripping.

I nominate to take that out of context and freak everyone out.

Chanoire

2006-02-10 10:32:55 pm

Well, I don't know if I'd assume that the suitless part would necessarily lack the ability to grip. Obviously her abilities are different sans suit, i.e., crawling.

To clarify, I have no trouble seeing the need for the gripping ability. It's the absolute barrier without any known workaround whatsoever that gets me, as opposed to a more natural-seeming thing which could be bypassed by a sufficiently suicidal runner. I mean, SM probably was not intended to be completable without gravity suit, but it's not like there's an arbitrary barrier around Maridia that disappears after you get it.

transience

2006-02-10 10:40:03 pm

twenty eight fifty

Quote from Spine Shark:

I absolutely hate the idea of fighting MB without power grip, as I still firmly believe you'd be doomed as soon as you got hit at all.

if you've got hijump and some skills, you can just from the lava straight onto MB's platform. not sure about without hijump, as i don't do that very often.

Quote from Spine Shark:

I thought Suitless Samus' grip was inherent...is it really tied to whether or not you have the item?

i imagine it is programmed as inherent since there's no way to get there otherwise. you would need a cheating device to check, and while i don't have one i'm pretty sure you would have it inherently.

Quote from Yoshi, the perverted one:

I nominate to take that out of context and freak everyone out.

i approve.

Quote from Chanoire:

To clarify, I have no trouble seeing the need for the gripping ability.

i can verify that it is 100% unneeded (see: morph ball run), but the fact of the matter is that your average player is not a freak of nature and the games of today do their best to keep you from a position that is certain death no matter what. whether you agree or not is up to you, but i do not think this line of thinking is unreasonable. if it were me, i would have placed the power grip before bombs and forced the player to get it in a more traditional way.

[quote="Spine Shark"]I absolutely hate the idea of fighting MB without power grip, as I still firmly believe you'd be doomed as soon as you got hit at all.[/quote]

if you've got hijump and some skills, you can just from the lava straight onto MB's platform. not sure about without hijump, as i don't do that very often.

[quote="Spine Shark"]I thought Suitless Samus' grip was inherent...is it really tied to whether or not you have the item?[/quote]

i imagine it is programmed as inherent since there's no way to get there otherwise. you would need a cheating device to check, and while i don't have one i'm pretty sure you would have it inherently.

[quote="Yoshi, the perverted one"]I nominate to take that out of context and freak everyone out.[/quote]

i approve.

[quote="Chanoire"]To clarify, I have no trouble seeing the need for the gripping ability.[/quote]

i can verify that it is 100% unneeded (see: morph ball run), but the fact of the matter is that your average player is not a freak of nature and the games of today do their best to keep you from a position that is certain death no matter what. whether you agree or not is up to you, but i do not think this line of thinking is unreasonable. if it were me, i would have placed the power grip before bombs and forced the player to get it in a more traditional way.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-10 10:42:57 pm

Chaniore, I knew that there were some sequence breaking tricks in the original Metroid, i just said that the TRUE sequence breaking started in Super Metroid. I do have to say though that you may be right that the single wall jumps were MEANT to be in the game. They probably wanted us to use for the speed runs, like unlocking that gallery photo of Samus in her jump suit, that you can get by beating the game under 2 hours. Single Wall jump is easy anyway. But i know for a fact that IBJ wasn't meant to be put in ZM. For example, would Nintendo want you to use the IBJ for the Varia early? It was meant to be used with high jump and power grip. And since ZM works like SM, (speed wise, and control wise) the IBJ was put in both games. Since the compatibility and speed were timed right to set each bomb off right. If Nintendo meant to put this ability in the game, they should of just out it in Fusion. But since the bombs set off every 3-4 seconds, the morph ball wont last that long in the air

That would be cool if someone found a way to bypass that big root that blocks the rest of Norfair off. But since you can't speed boost it, or get any of those beetle things in the room (since oyu can't carry them room after room) It hasent been done. But i did hear that one guy said he passed the root, he said it just wasnt there. But if were possible to bypass it, it would have already been done.
It didn't take long to learn about sequence breaking in '86, i saw a website that showed a magizine of Metroid 1 sequence breaking tricks, like the door warp, and doing those other tricks. It was published in '87. Unless someone did a glitch or used
AR, it can't be done. (so far)

Edit: wow, lots of posts in the past 5 minutes, oh yea, this post is to reply to Chaniore on the top of the page, with his big paragraph. If oyu dont understand what im saying

Chaniore, I knew that there were some sequence breaking tricks in the original Metroid, i just said that the TRUE sequence breaking started in Super Metroid. I do have to say though that you may be right that the single wall jumps were MEANT to be in the game. They probably wanted us to use for the speed runs, like unlocking that gallery photo of Samus in her jump suit, that you can get by beating the game under 2 hours. Single Wall jump is easy anyway. But i know for a fact that IBJ wasn't meant to be put in ZM. For example, would Nintendo want you to use the IBJ for the Varia early? It was meant to be used with high jump and power grip. And since ZM works like SM, (speed wise, and control wise) the IBJ was put in both games. Since the compatibility and speed were timed right to set each bomb off right. If Nintendo meant to put this ability in the game, they should of just out it in Fusion. But since the bombs set off every 3-4 seconds, the morph ball wont last that long in the air

That would be cool if someone found a way to bypass that big root that blocks the rest of Norfair off. But since you can't speed boost it, or get any of those beetle things in the room (since oyu can't carry them room after room) It hasent been done. But i did hear that one guy said he passed the root, he said it just wasnt there. But if were possible to bypass it, it would have already been done. 
It didn't take long to learn about sequence breaking in '86, i saw a website that showed a magizine of Metroid 1 sequence breaking tricks, like the door warp, and doing those other tricks. It was published in '87. Unless someone did a glitch or used 
AR, it can't be done. (so far)

Edit: wow, lots of posts in the past 5 minutes, oh yea, this post  is to reply to Chaniore on the top of the page, with his big paragraph. If oyu dont understand what im saying

transience

2006-02-10 10:46:52 pm

twenty eight fifty

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

Chaniore, I knew that there were some sequence breaking tricks in the original Metroid, i just said that the TRUE sequence breaking started in Super Metroid.

by "true" sequence breaking, do you mean "easy" sequence breaking, such as walljumping to get wave beam? a sequence break is, well, breaking the game in a way that lets you go out of sequence. metroid's got that for sure.

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

But i know for a fact that IBJ wasn't meant to be put in ZM.

...?

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-10 10:51:38 pm

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

But i know for a fact that IBJ wasn't meant to be put in ZM.

...?[/quote]

I meant to say that the developers put in this trick by mistake. They made the speed of this game fast enough for us to lay each bomb on top of eachother. Since it only take a second for each bomb to explode.

transience

2006-02-10 10:58:49 pm

twenty eight fifty

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

I meant to say that the developers put in this trick by mistake. They made the speed of this game fast enough for us to lay each bomb on top of eachother. Since it only take a second for each bomb to explode.

i.. you think.. accidental.. despite 15% endings.. and its existence in previous games.. no.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-10 11:01:00 pm

Dont remind me about the COOLEST ending. OH crud! now im thinking about Samus... awsome... 15%...gallery...photo.......

Chanoire

2006-02-10 11:13:53 pm

At least you're thinking now, which must be an improvement.

Why on earth would the IBJ be accidental when they had experience removing it from Fusion?

Quote from Cracklingdarksamus:

I do have to say though that you may be right that the single wall jumps were MEANT to be in the game. They probably wanted us to use for the speed runs, like unlocking that gallery photo of Samus in her jump suit, that you can get by beating the game under 2 hours.

Maybe? Probably? Tell me how you're supposed to use [url=www.pwrsrc.net/~charlie/suitless_shortcut.png]this[/url] shortcut without it.

Quote:

Edit: wow, lots of posts in the past 5 minutes, oh yea, this post is to reply to Chaniore on the top of the page, with his big paragraph. If oyu dont understand what im saying

Nice gender assumption there. Goes with the spelling. Rolling Eyes

transience

2006-02-10 11:33:40 pm

twenty eight fifty

you should know that there are no girls on the internet, sha-nwa.

Chanoire

2006-02-10 11:42:04 pm

Yeah, yeah, I keep forgetting, what with the mirror and all.

The 'r' is pronounced, by the way.

Yoshi348

2006-02-10 11:46:36 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Just realized this is the time topic, and this has nothing to do with posting your times. I'll split it so you can resume the owning.

Cracklingdarksamus

2006-02-11 12:00:10 am

aww crud, i made a HUGE post that was supposed to reply to Chan's post. I'll just post it here, but in simple, short words

Why on earth would the IBJ be accidental when they had experience removing it from Fusion?

Chanoire: What i said in the other topic was, it is based off of speed. ZM has a faster default speed and fusion has a slower one. And since a bomb is set off in 1 second excact, the timing the bomb jump takes to reach the air will take 0.5 nano secs. And since it takes a second for a bomb to explode, it will keep going in a pattern.

So my point is the bombs that fusion has takes 4 seconds to explode, and 1.4 secs for the ball to reach the air. So that wouldnt give it self enough time. So its set by speed. fusion is slower, ZM is faster. It doesnt have to do anything with "expereince" by removing it from fusion. If they made the game faster, they might have a chance of getting the IBJ

Chanoire

2006-02-11 12:28:21 am

And your post proves it was accidental how?

I can't believe you think the programmers are so stupid they made Fusion too slow to manage the bomb jumping that was already in the series (and have you noticed how slow the bomb jump is in SM compared to ZM?) and then continued to be so stupid that they didn't realize they were putting it back in. Have you noticed how freaking hard it is to sequence break Fusion? The one significant break results in a message telling the player that that was anticipated and blocked. Given how everything goes to pieces if you do things out of order, you can bet that they blocked bomb jumping deliberately, and likewise with single wall jump. Fusion was intended to be linear, and it is. ZM was obviously intended to have multiple routes -- unless you think the shaft to Ridley is accidental too -- and bomb jumping fits right in with that. The alternate route of getting to the ship in the Tourian escape if you don't have speed booster, for example.