Samus in Smash Brothers

2004-05-05 07:57:12 pm

Umm...hello people!! It is clear that Link is the greatest fighter! I can endless combo with him all day long and i always use him.

tomatobob

2004-05-05 07:58:29 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

My best are:
Link, Samus, and Gannondorf. My preference is a character that has long range attacks hence Link and Samus as my top two, and Gannondorf's sheer power is just awesome.

Chet Rippo

2004-05-05 09:34:06 pm

Luigi is so great, because he has awesome arial attacks! His break dance move is also a good move to use.

chinchillax13514

2004-05-05 09:50:35 pm

About Luigi, my friend got a funny little snapshot from SSB Melee. Ok, Luigi was ducking down, and Peach was standing next to him. He managed to pause right during Peach's Smash A attack. She had the frying pan out, and it looked as if Luigi was her son or something like that, and he was getting punished. "No mama, no!!!" I wish I had a picture, it was funny.

SABERinBLUE

2004-05-05 10:09:45 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Stonefish:

What's with me and the female characters anyway?

Hey, I know how that is... I'm stuck playing as a girl in most games where there's the classic "guys are slow and strong, girls are fast and weak" crap going on, because it fits my style better. Not that there's anything wrong with playing as a girl, but imagine if I went online with my RAmarl in PSO. I would always be explaining that I am not, in fact, female.

Chet Rippo

2004-05-05 10:56:27 pm

Quote from chinchillax13514:

About Luigi, my friend got a funny little snapshot from SSB Melee. Ok, Luigi was ducking down, and Peach was standing next to him. He managed to pause right during Peach's Smash A attack. She had the frying pan out, and it looked as if Luigi was her son or something like that, and he was getting punished. "No mama, no!!!" I wish I had a picture, it was funny.

Well that reminds me about my picture...... It's Luigi standing by a piece of swiss cheese. Laughing

You may think it's stupid but it means more to me (mmmmmm..... cheese!)

Thanatos

2004-05-06 09:00:12 pm

Samus is a very good all around character, and probably my favorite.

Most powerful... it really depends on the match up, but against heavy combatants, peach wins due to her down a attack (dress spin?) - getting caught in the center of that is an easy 40 damage, and it can be done multiple times.

Over all, a well played fox is invincible. If one gets the timing of the reflector right, all ranged attacks are unable to be used, and fox is deadly with his incredible speed at attacks and ground speed.

SABERinBLUE

2004-05-07 05:25:49 pm

Cook of the Sea

Well, I know that Fox's run speed is slightly faster, but I think that Falco's downtime per attack is a bit better. And his jump speed may be faster, too. I'll have to check on that. Not to argue the T-word, but, in general, I think Falco is preferable to Fox. Granted, Fox's blaster not making the opponent flinch can be very useful, but it's a double-edged sword as well. The Falco Phantasm is shorter than the Fox Illusion, but I think the Fire Bird might be longer than the Fire Fox. I know that these differences in B-attack are trivial, but they can affect how you use the character.

By the way, I like to use C-Smashes when using Fox and Falco in Vs. It really adds to their speed advantage and downtime negation.

Chet Rippo

2004-05-08 11:05:19 pm

I don't use C-smashes very often, because, well I'm still in love with the original.

tomatobob

2004-05-09 02:56:20 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Yeah, I'm with ya there the original smash system is second nature to me the C smash seems unnatural to me.

SABERinBLUE

2004-05-09 09:33:16 pm

Cook of the Sea

Yeah, but it can be fun to juggle around with Falco with C. I do like the way you can charge them up in this game.

tomatobob

2004-05-12 11:22:30 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I prefere to chagre a smash when I can, I only really use the C stick if I need a quick and sring hit, usually when I use Link as I have a tendency to be in the fray with him, but with Samus I don't need it she moves faster and her progectiles can be used faster so I can stay on the outside of the fray.

LastDay

2004-08-04 08:44:03 pm

Link...
He has both ranged and melee attacks (haha, you cannot run!)
as well the cool shield which can be very useful at blockin good old superscope attack... and ofcourse newbie's attacks.

I also like his hookshot, thought it's a bit risky if your enemy dodges it.

I almost never use the bombs...well I do like holding one in hand when I'm invincible (star) and throw the bomb downwards, giving damage to all people around me.

and sometimes... I get the urge to "fly" over people, throw a bomb down, and land far away from others...but thats kinda hard.

I also like kirby and marth, sometimes I use jigglypuff and make the sleep move right before they hit me to "kill" them with 1 hit and then taunting like hell and dodging their ranged attacks ;)

I've often wondered what the sages will say for using The Legendary Master Sword to beat crap out of people in an arena :D

Phoenix

2004-08-05 06:51:41 pm

The top ten characters (based on statistics, and assuming both players are at equal skill) are in order:

Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco
Peach
Captain Falcon
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Mario

Yoshi348

2004-08-05 07:18:28 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Man, I'm almost tempted to mark that message for trolling. ;p

LastDay

2004-08-05 07:18:47 pm

well IMO the worst would be jigglypuff...

thought can fly darn long time without landing, and flies much faster than (he/she/it) runs.

I've played with all characters, and beaten all stars mode with them all... and none of them are overpowered or too weak, very well balanced game if you ask me.

*puts up his lewt avatar*

Phoenix

2004-08-06 12:50:20 pm

Which message? Mine? It's true. :)

I figured I'd post something with actual content instead opf complaining about yet another bumping of a several months old thread.

Yoshi348

2004-08-06 03:10:40 pm

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Ready and willing.

Heh. It's just that you make it REALLY unclear what statistics you're talking about, plus there's lots of anti-tier discussion in the first pages of the thread. But that was so long ago...

Phoenix

2004-08-06 05:34:33 pm

Yeah. Well, I'm a firm believer in tiers. The statistics are basically priority, speed and damage of attacks. I mean, a fast attack that does 18% and a slow attack that does 18% damage, which would you say was best?

Now if a character has ten fast attacks with good speeds, and another guy has only four of them, wouldn't you say one character is better than the other?

Tier list is taking all this to the extreme. Analyzing to the maximum every single attack of all the characters, compare to recovery time, ablity to stay in the air, the priority of their attacks, how good they are at wavedashing, how much damage they can take, how good they are at edgehogging, the speed at which they run, etc, etc.

Then they compare these characters against each other, and come up with a fairly good ranking list.

Tierlists doesn't mean one character will always be able to beat another, it's just a measure of the statisticla power of each character. You can't be a newbie choosing Sheik and hope to beat expert Mr. Game and Watch players, but if you're really really really good (playing in tournaments against other great people all around the world and stuff) and you face a guy of equal skill, in 99 cases out of a hundred, the Sheik player WILL beat the Mr. Game and Watch player. The gaps aren't huge by any means, but they are there. Some characters are simply better than others. No game has ever been perfectly balanced.

Of course, you rarely, if ever face someone with the exact equal skill, so most of the time, the best player will win regardless of character (assuming he's used to playing that character). And of course, you as a person might be better with Ganondorf than you are with Fox for example (that would be me) and you will do better in fights when you play as Ganondorf than you would had you played with Fox. This doesn't mean Ganondorf is a statistically better character than Fox, it just means you're better with Ganondorf.

And on another note, I prefer a Character Ranking Project instead of a Tier list. A CRP compares each character to another and gives a point for which one of them would have a bigger chance of winning. This works out better, because one character may haev awesome counters against another, but doesn't do as well versus others (as is the case with Roy vs. Marth. Roy will beat Marth in a 1on1, but Marth is much higher up on the Tier list. In this case, Roy would perhaps have a 60% chance against Marth, but much lower chances against other characters, while Marth would only have 40% against Roy but much higher against others). Soul Calibur 2 experts use this system, and it's working pretty good. Then for fun you can add upp all the percentages and crown a best character (in this case Cervantes) and a worst character (Yunsung).

Yeah. Well, I'm a firm believer in tiers. The statistics are basically priority, speed and damage of attacks. I mean, a fast attack that does 18% and a slow attack that does 18% damage, which would you say was best?

Now if a character has ten fast attacks with good speeds, and another guy has only four of them, wouldn't you say one character is better than the other?

Tier list is taking all this to the extreme. Analyzing to the maximum every single attack of all the characters, compare to recovery time, ablity to stay in the air, the priority of their attacks, how good they are at wavedashing, how much damage they can take, how good they are at edgehogging, the speed at which they run, etc, etc.

Then they compare these characters against each other, and come up with a fairly good ranking list.

Tierlists doesn't mean one character will always be able to beat another, it's just a measure of the statisticla power of each character. You can't be a newbie choosing Sheik and hope to beat expert Mr. Game and Watch players, but if you're really really really good (playing in tournaments against other great people all around the world and stuff) and you face a guy of equal skill, in 99 cases out of a hundred, the Sheik player WILL beat the Mr. Game and Watch player.  The gaps aren't huge by any means, but they are there. Some characters are simply better than others. No game has ever been perfectly balanced.

Of course, you rarely, if ever face someone with the exact equal skill, so most of the time, the best player will win regardless of character (assuming he's used to playing that character). And of course, you as a person might be better with Ganondorf than you are with Fox for example (that would be me) and you will do better in fights when you play as Ganondorf than you would had you played with Fox. This doesn't mean Ganondorf is a statistically better character than Fox, it just means you're better with Ganondorf.

And on another note, I prefer a Character Ranking Project instead of a Tier list. A CRP compares each character to another and gives a point for which one of them would have a bigger chance of winning. This works out better, because one character may haev awesome counters against another, but doesn't do as well versus others (as is the case with Roy vs. Marth. Roy will beat Marth in a 1on1, but Marth is much higher up on the Tier list. In this case, Roy would perhaps have a 60% chance against Marth, but much lower chances against other characters, while Marth would only have 40% against Roy but much higher against others). Soul Calibur 2 experts use this system, and it's working pretty good. Then for fun you can add upp all the percentages and crown a best character (in this case Cervantes) and a worst character (Yunsung).

LastDay

2004-08-07 11:06:07 pm

well I don't really believe that...

moves hit in different ways, some hit from up, some from down, some from back...

also which way the targets flies, and what stage is it...

also what items you get?

smaller characters are harder to hit but many statics ingore that fact and just say they are fast or weak...

lets say..hmm pikachu is tall enough to be hit with many things but small enough to dodge much when crouched.
how do you calculate that?
"yay dach 61.013436% dodge omg" ?

also when you said that other char has 10 fast attacks with good speed (fast with speed???) well anyway... and other has 4...
maybe I have 10 fast speed attacks but I like to use only one of them.... Wink

or maybe I have 4 and use them all.

There's no way to calculate it IMO.

It's like those Intelligence tests.
think about it.
computer can calculate many different things, but it can't find it's own food...(if it would need it)

worms can find their own food and they know when they are hungry but know nothing of calculations, nor need them.

well I don't really believe that...

moves hit in different ways, some hit from up, some from down, some from back...

also which way the targets flies, and what stage is it...

also what items you get?

smaller characters are harder to hit but many statics ingore that fact and just say they are fast or weak...

lets say..hmm pikachu is tall enough to be hit with many things but small enough to dodge much when crouched.
how do you calculate that?
"yay dach 61.013436% dodge omg" ?

also when you said that other char has 10 fast attacks with good speed (fast with speed???) well anyway... and other has 4...
maybe I have 10 fast speed attacks but I like to use only one of them....  :wink:
or maybe I have 4 and use them all.

There's no way to calculate it IMO.

It's like those Intelligence tests.
think about it.
computer can calculate many different things, but it can't find it's own food...(if it would need it)

worms can find their own food and they know when they are hungry but know nothing of calculations, nor need them.

Yoshi348

2004-08-08 01:38:48 am

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Ready and willing.

I was wondering that myself in a bit more coherent way... how do you assign a objective value to, say, Yoshi's ability to never get knocked out of his double jump? I just didn't want to complain because you were sane about it.

Phoenix

2004-08-08 03:59:32 am

Quote:

smaller characters are harder to hit but many statics ingore that fact and just say they are fast or weak...

It's not ignored.

Quote:

moves hit in different ways, some hit from up, some from down, some from back...

This is accounted for.

Quote:

also what items you get?

The tiers are based on 1on1 matches with no or very few items. Finding a Hammer or a Starman in the middle of a fight can make even Pichu kick Sheik's ass. So items aren't part of the statistics. Tiers shouldn't really be applied to four-man melee with very high items for example. The more items you have, the more luck is involved. More players also changes teh game, since now you can kind of stay in the back wait for the other guys to start fighting and attack when they're busy. Or perhaps wait for a good items or a Pokéball to throw or something. In 1on1 without items, it's just character vs. character.

Quote:

but I like to use only one of them.... or maybe I have 4 and use them all.

This has to do with you as a player not the charcater as a whole. Maybe someone likes to use Sheik and do nothing but his/her neutral A attacks. Naturally that wouldn't be very successful. This doesn't mean the character sucks, it means the player does.

Quote:

how do you assign a objective value to, say, Yoshi's ability to never get knocked out of his double jump?

Of course there's no inherent objective value in moves unless they're purely damaging, but the people who decide this (which is basically big groups of expert players) take a look at Yoshi's double-jump or Pikachu's ducking, see how useful it is against attacks, how much it can help against common moves, how much use you can have of it yourself. Then after thorough examination it's decided how good it actually is, and how much better/worse it makes the character.

Obviously this isn't foolproof. Some moves may not be as impressive first, and it's not worth much but then some really good player comes along that uses it in a great way. Then the move is reevaluated and the characters position in the tier list as well. This is why the tier list is updated every now and then - because everything in the game is continuously being tested and tried in tons of different ways by tons of different players. But ever since the first tier list there has been very few big changes. People have mostly switched places from one tier to the immediate above or below.

[quote]smaller characters are harder to hit but many statics ingore that fact and just say they are fast or weak... [/quote]
It's not ignored.

[quote]moves hit in different ways, some hit from up, some from down, some from back... [/quote]
This is accounted for.

[quote]also what items you get? [/quote] The tiers are based on 1on1 matches with no or very few items. Finding a Hammer or a Starman in the middle of a fight can make even Pichu kick Sheik's ass. So items aren't part of the statistics. Tiers shouldn't really be applied to four-man melee with very high items for example. The more items you have, the more luck is involved. More players also changes teh game, since now you can kind of stay in the back wait for the other guys to start fighting and attack when they're busy. Or perhaps wait for a  good items or a Pokéball to throw or something. In 1on1 without items, it's just character vs. character.

[quote]but I like to use only one of them.... or maybe I have 4 and use them all. [/quote] This has to do with you as a player not the charcater as a whole. Maybe someone likes to use Sheik and do nothing but his/her neutral A attacks. Naturally that wouldn't be very successful. This doesn't mean the character sucks, it means the player does.

[quote]how do you assign a objective value to, say, Yoshi's ability to never get knocked out of his double jump?[/quote]
Of course there's no inherent objective value in moves unless they're purely damaging, but the people who decide this (which is basically big groups of expert players) take a look at Yoshi's double-jump or Pikachu's ducking, see how useful it is against attacks, how much it can help against common moves, how much use you can have of it yourself. Then after thorough examination it's decided how good it actually is, and how much better/worse it makes the character.

Obviously this isn't foolproof. Some moves may not be as impressive first, and it's not worth much but then some really good player comes along that uses it in a great way. Then the move is reevaluated and the characters position in the tier list as well. This is why the tier list is updated every now and then - because everything in the game is continuously being tested and tried in tons of different ways by tons of different players. But ever since the first tier list there has been very few big changes. People have mostly switched places from one tier to the immediate above or below.

LastDay

2004-08-08 05:14:56 am

Weird statement, like pichu couldn't beat Sheik...
any char can beat any...

now to think of it... I have to admit.

those calculations would be correct...
but only if you had all players CP and somehow they had 100% even AI but different characters.

but there's no way to calculate human's intelligence.

taking 2 characters is like taking 2 creatures without brains.
now if the other is a bit stronger...then it is.
btu as long there's no differences like other hits 100% per hit and other 1% there's no real difference if both are humans...

So I'd say "worst" can beat "best" unless it's arena with no hazards, no items and (some weird way) 2 CP that would be 100% same level.

so yeah U can calculate it.
but as long the differences aren't HUGE it really doesn't matter.

Izo

2004-08-08 10:37:12 am

soaking through

Quote from LastDay:

So I'd say "worst" can beat "best" unless it's arena with no hazards, no items and (some weird way) 2 CP that would be 100% same level.

No hazards- Final Destination

No items- Turn them off

100% same level- I think you've got the wrong idea here. They don't just pit characters against each other. They look at the characters long and hard, analyse their moves, their speed, and their basic mechanics, and then judge it based on that, assuming that the characters are fighting in the situation detailed above.

Phoenix

2004-08-08 10:48:52 am

Of course any character can beat any character, if on player is better than the other. I've never said otherwise.

AI players don't use every move and trick available to them in the right way, even at level 9, so pitting two computers against each other isn't a good way to compare either.

Level 9 players are stupid anyway. Play against Ness at level 9 on Jungle Japes and watch him commit suicide within a few seconds as long as you don't move.