Metroid Co-Creator Yoshio Sakamoto: 'Other M being developed with the aim of the ideal form of the old Metroid'

tomatobob

Edit history:

tomatobob: 2010-02-18 07:11:28 am

2010-02-18 07:11:14 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

the last thing Nintendo wants when experimenting with a new direction in a series is easy backlash.

Counterpoint: Wind Waker and the DS Zeldas. Also Star Fox Adventures. Metroid Fusion and probably Prime as well.

TheGreenManalishi

Edit history:

TheGreenManalishi: 2010-02-18 07:26:00 am

2010-02-18 07:22:42 am

Fusion and Prime are bad examples, as the Metroid series had been dead (aside from Smash Bros.) for a decade, so it was an attempt at reboot as opposed to continuation. WindWaker (one word aiwebs_020

) was about as predictable as it could have been, considering the departure Majora's Mask was from Ocarina (they then abandonded the whole 'every 3D Zelda is distinct' and remade OOT in Twilight Princess, only with wolfiness).

Toozin

2010-02-18 07:28:36 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Except WW caused HUGE controversy for it's toonishness after every fan in the universe was screaming for "omg more oot link plz."

TheGreenManalishi

2010-02-18 07:35:57 am

Fans are stupid. We don't even know what we want, let alone what will make more revenue for the devs/publishers.

Chozoid

2010-02-18 08:15:18 pm

is it just me or does it seem like all hardcore fans of a long-standing video game series always want the new games to return to the old ways?

nate

2010-02-18 08:18:25 pm

seems natural to me.

Prime Hunter

2010-02-18 09:11:54 pm

Makes sense, seeing as the most loyal fans of a series probably like the series because of the mechanics of the older games they've played for years. Having new versions of that same type of gameplay means there's a good chance the new game will play like the old one they already love, which in the end means they will probably love the new one just as much if not more depending on what's added.

Too much of a change means you may lose what made the series great in those fans eyes, and in some cases turn them off completely from future installments. As for me, a natural evolution of gameplay mechanics as the series progresses, keeping just enough of what made the old games as great as long lasting as they have been, is probably the best way to keep everyone happy. Think of New Super Mario Bros Wii. as a perfect example of what I'm trying to say: New game that expands on the concepts and gameplay of the original NES line, but manages to keep things fresh and exciting at the same time.

Chozoid

2010-02-18 09:26:15 pm

Yeah, I agree that they need to keep what made the series great, but also, progress is essential for video games.

Idkbutlike2

2010-02-18 09:27:24 pm

Quote from Chozoid:

Yeah, I agree that they need to keep what made the series great, but also, progress is essential for video games.

Well what made the series great for the fans may be quite different from what the developers think made it great. Just throwing it out there...

Chozoid

2010-02-18 09:31:23 pm

I agree

Toozin

2010-02-18 09:31:51 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Except this is the information age and there is NO excuse for a developer not to be monitoring fan feedback.

I would be shocked if Nintendo reps weren't dropping in here from time to time. Maybe nate knows specifics.

arkarian

2010-02-18 09:34:00 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from TheGreenManalishi:

WindWaker (one word aiwebs_020

) was about as predictable as it could have been, considering the departure Majora's Mask was from Ocarina

er, what? i don't think anyone could have possibly predicted either of the two main changes in tww (the cel-shading and the ocean). if you're saying you did you're lying. :P

Chozoid

2010-02-18 09:35:34 pm

Well I don't know too much on Nintendo's relations with their fans but I'm pretty sure most companies would rather make a game that would sell high rather than one that would satisfy their harcore fans.

Opium

2010-02-18 09:43:20 pm

Not necessarily. Yes, they are a business and they are in it for the money, but they have lots of different games and are free to use different marketing strategies for each one. Some games are meant to appeal to as many people as possible, some simply aren't. The recent old-skool remakes made no apologies for their difficulty and they knew that most people wouldn't like them. They try different things with different games, it's almost a total crapshoot trying to guess where they'll take each series. Mario is totally generic so they can (and have) do whatever the hell they want with him, but when it comes to Zelda and Metroid I'm willing to bet that they put ALOT of thought into the direction they want to go in. If Other M takes metroid to a place that you don't like, it's not because someone messed up, it just simply wasn't what YOU wanted.

Prime Hunter

Edit history:

Prime Hunter: 2010-02-19 12:30:19 am

2010-02-19 12:25:38 am

Quote from Chozoid:

Yeah, I agree that they need to keep what made the series great, but also, progress is essential for video games.

Well yeah, I didn't mean to say I don't agree with you there. That's more or less what I was trying to say with this:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

As for me, a natural evolution of gameplay mechanics as the series progresses, keeping just enough of what made the old games as great as long lasting as they have been, is probably the best way to keep everyone happy.

Build upon and expand what worked, take out/modify what didn't, and add something unexpected at the same time. See how fans react, and repeat the cycle for the next game. Obviously with Other M, Nintendo's leaning heavily towards that third part of that formula, but seeing as the last few games they've done haven't been as successful as they wanted, I understand why they're doing that from a developer perspective.

And I'll go along with what Opium said about Zelda and Metroid. They're apparently going in entirely new directions for each of the new Wii iterations because they feel it's time to shake things up a bit for both of them. Twilight Princess (the change back to OOT art and gameplay styles) and the Prime Trilogy (the changes between versions, and the added "security" against SBs based on what we've done here) in particular show that Nintendo pays attention to what the fans are doing and how they're reacting to their games. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon are their crown jewels right now, and when two of them aren't shining as brightly as they used to, that's major cause for alarm. If I were Nintendo, I'd put as much effort as possible into figuring out how to get Zelda and Metroid back up to the top form that fans know they can be, because the current direction for each of them hasn't been working.

At this time Nintendo still has enough points with me that I trust them enough to believe these new games will still be great with whatever changes they make to their formulas. (Doesn't hurt that I still found Twilight Princess, Spirit Tracks, Corruption, etc. to be great games in their own right, even if overall sales would suggest otherwise if I remember right.)

[quote="Chozoid"]Yeah, I agree that they need to keep what made the series great, but also, progress is essential for video games.[/quote]
Well yeah, I didn't mean to say I don't agree with you there. That's more or less what I was trying to say with this:

[quote="Prime Hunter"]As for me, a natural evolution of gameplay mechanics as the series progresses, keeping just enough of what made the old games as great as long lasting as they have been, is probably the best way to keep everyone happy.[/quote]
Build upon and expand what worked, take out/modify what didn't, and add something unexpected at the same time. See how fans react, and repeat the cycle for the next game. Obviously with Other M, Nintendo's leaning heavily towards that third part of that formula, but seeing as the last few games they've done haven't been as successful as they wanted, I understand why they're doing that from a developer perspective.

And I'll go along with what Opium said about Zelda and Metroid. They're apparently going in entirely new directions for each of the new Wii iterations because they feel it's time to shake things up a bit for both of them. Twilight Princess (the change back to OOT art and gameplay styles) and the Prime Trilogy (the changes between versions, and the added "security" against SBs based on what we've done here) in particular show that Nintendo pays attention to what the fans are doing and how they're reacting to their games. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon are their crown jewels right now, and when two of them aren't shining as brightly as they used to, that's major cause for alarm. If I were Nintendo, I'd put as much effort as possible into figuring out how to get Zelda and Metroid back up to the top form that fans know they can be, because the current direction for each of them hasn't been working.

At this time Nintendo still has enough points with me that I trust them enough to believe these new games will still be great with whatever changes they make to their formulas. (Doesn't hurt that I still found Twilight Princess, Spirit Tracks, Corruption, etc. to be great games in their own right, even if overall sales would suggest otherwise if I remember right.)

TheGreenManalishi

2010-02-19 04:27:31 am

Quote from arkarian:

Quote from TheGreenManalishi:

WindWaker (one word aiwebs_020

) was about as predictable as it could have been, considering the departure Majora's Mask was from Ocarina

er, what? i don't think anyone could have possibly predicted either of the two main changes in tww (the cel-shading and the ocean). if you're saying you did you're lying. :P

I meant it was predictable in the fact that it was a departure from MM, as MM was a departure from OOT.

Toozin

2010-02-19 05:02:22 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

It seems like you're misremembering the expectations and attitudes of the time.

Remember the Spaceworld... what was it, 2002? 2003? Somewhere around there... that famous Spaceworld trailer of OoT-style Link battling OoT-style Gannondorf in a technical demonstration of the Gamecube. Everyone - EVERYONE - expected that to be the next Zelda. When Toon Link was unveiled people were FLOORED. It came out of absolutely nowhere and like 75% of the fanbase was up in arms.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-02-19 06:23:10 am

Ah, touché, I had forgotton that the graphical style was, in the eyes of the fans, going to be similar to OOT, just higher res. But my point still stands - the 3D Zeldas are, apart from TP, very different from each other.

Prime Hunter

Edit history:

Prime Hunter: 2010-02-19 10:14:01 am

Prime Hunter: 2010-02-19 10:13:38 am

2010-02-19 10:11:32 am

Yeah, I think that was actually around 2000 or so, because wasn't it before the Cube came out in 01?

Regardless, even though I was relatively new to the ways of internet fanbases around that time period, I still remember the backlash from Toon Link's first appearance after the expectations that had grown from that demo. The farther back the demo was released, the more time for those expectations to grow into something they would never be, only making the outcry more pronounced.

Funny how three years after WW though, fans basically got what they had wanted for so long only to turn around and complain about it yet again. No wonder they're trying to do something new again for the series.

Edit: Yep, it was in 2000. Three years before WW came out, so probably about two years of for the fanbase to speculate based on this:

TheGreenManalishi

2010-02-19 10:30:54 am

But WW was one of the most delayed games of that gen, and the cel-shaded art style was announced fairly early in the 'Cubes lifespan, iirc.

Prime Hunter

2010-02-19 11:53:44 am

I honestly didn't remember that part, seeing as that was around the same time I was just starting to follow things like E3 and gaming news to the degree that I do now. Still, however long it was before Wind Waker was announced and everyone saw Toon Link, there was plenty of time for fans to speculate based on that 24 seconds of video. (Heck, even a few months is more than enough for a series like Zelda with a huge following.)

Opium

Edit history:

Opium: 2010-02-19 12:17:39 pm

2010-02-19 12:10:34 pm

I've been thinking about 'Other M being developed with the aim of the ideal form of the old Metroid' as well as the idea that nintendo analyzes the fans' reactions and tries to give them what they want. The 'ideal form of the old Metroid' in terms of critical acclaim was super metroid. Enough 'best games of all time' lists have come out by now for them to see that. It makes sense to return to the series' roots at this point. When the preview channel for MP3 came out and showed that mother brain (aurora) would be returning, it was a BIG surprise. It made old fans perk right up, and it made new fans want to know more about the pre-prime era.
I'm hoping that this game brings back many elements from super metroid, including: acrobatics, common sequence breaks, subscreen that allows turning off/on upgrades, open exploration, as well as bosses from that game that have never returned. That is what the fans really want right now. I'm also hoping that they are clever enough to inject a good story into it, a story that's compelling enough to breathe new life into the series and practically ensure that more games will come. So, basically for this game to be perfect, imo, it will achieve something old AND something new at the same time. Discuss.

I've been thinking about 'Other M being developed with the aim of the ideal form of the old Metroid' as well as the idea that nintendo analyzes the fans' reactions and tries to give them what they want.   The 'ideal form of the old Metroid' in terms of critical acclaim was super metroid.  Enough 'best games of all time' lists have come out by now for them to see that.  It makes sense to return to the series' roots at this point.  When the preview channel for MP3 came out and showed that mother brain (aurora) would be returning, it was a BIG surprise.  It made old fans perk right up, and it made new fans want to know more about the pre-prime era.   
I'm hoping that this game brings back many elements from super metroid, including: acrobatics, common sequence breaks, subscreen that allows turning off/on upgrades, open exploration, as well as bosses from that game that have never returned.  That is what the fans really want right now.  I'm also hoping that they are clever enough to inject a good story into it, a story that's compelling enough to breathe new life into the series and practically ensure that more games will come.  So, basically for this game to be perfect, imo, it will achieve something old AND something new at the same time.  Discuss.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-02-19 01:13:12 pm

Quote from Opium:

for this game to be perfect, imo, it will achieve something old AND something new at the same time. Discuss.

The same could be said for any established series.

Prime Hunter

2010-02-19 01:39:45 pm

Quote from Opium:

I'm hoping that this game brings back many elements from super metroid, including... bosses from that game that have never returned. That is what the fans really want right now..

I'm actually playing through SM: Redesign right now for the first time, and that is a good point. Spore Spawn, Crocomire, Phantoon, and Draygon for instance, have never been seen again. Croc had a "cameo" of sorts in ZM since it looks like they planned on including him at one point, but other than that nothing for these guys. Even Kraid hasn't really been seen again since then, only in ZM where he was a piece of cake. (On a small side note, when I got to him in Redesign I was laughing so much at myself. I go in thinking, oh, this is the same Kraid I've known for years. Simple! Three deaths later... d'oh!

I finally took him down at that point, but that was just barely from what I remember. There's one way to shatter someone's confidence.) It would be nice to see what they could do with these battles in a 3D realm.

But one of the main things I hope they do, although I'm trying to figure out how they'd do this as far as the storyline goes, is bring Metroids back to the spotlight and make us fear them again! That's something none of the 3D games really did. The closest thing we have are the Fusion Metroids from Prime, and even they aren't up to that same level of terror that the original three games gave us.

Obviously a big one from your list that is a key element is the open exploration. It's kind of hard to do that if the story is going to be as important as they say, but if they can pull this off somehow a lot of fans will be pleased I'll bet.

[quote="Opium"]I'm hoping that this game brings back many elements from super metroid, including... [i][b]bosses[/b][/i] from that game that have never returned.  That is what the fans really want right now..[/quote]
I'm actually playing through SM: Redesign right now for the first time, and that is a good point. Spore Spawn, Crocomire, Phantoon, and Draygon for instance, have never been seen again. Croc had a "cameo" of sorts in ZM since it looks like they planned on including him at one point, but other than that nothing for these guys. Even Kraid hasn't really been seen again since then, only in ZM where he was a piece of cake. (On a small side note, when I got to him in Redesign I was laughing so much at myself. I go in thinking, oh, this is the same Kraid I've known for years. Simple! Three deaths later... :doh_orig: I finally took him down at that point, but that was just barely from what I remember. There's one way to shatter someone's confidence.) It would be nice to see what they could do with these battles in a 3D realm.

But one of the main things I hope they do, although I'm trying to figure out how they'd do this as far as the storyline goes, is bring Metroids back to the spotlight and make us fear them again! That's something none of the 3D games really did. The closest thing we have are the Fusion Metroids from Prime, and even they aren't up to that same level of terror that the original three games gave us.

Obviously a big one from your list that is a key element is the open exploration. It's kind of hard to do that if the story is going to be as important as they say, but if they can pull this off somehow a lot of fans will be pleased I'll bet.

Opium

2010-02-19 02:07:37 pm

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Obviously a big one from your list that is a key element is the open exploration. It's kind of hard to do that if the story is going to be as important as they say, but if they can pull this off somehow a lot of fans will be pleased I'll bet.

I think it is possible to have alot of story and be non-linear at the same time. I can't explain exactly how, I just have to trust in the genius of the amazingly talented people who are creating this game. Perhaps the cut scenes will reveal info in a way that's clear enough to relay info, yet vague enough to account for what may or may not have happened earlier. Kinda like the way in ZM when the chozo ghost gives you varia even though you skipped it earlier. Actually ZM is designed flawlessly for things like that - adding secret alternative paths for those who skipped screw attack or power bombs. Maybe they can do that kind of clever accomodation, only this time with elements of the story instead. So basically the same story would end up being told, but perhaps in a slightly different order depending on how badly you fuck up the sequence. When I marvel at how nothing was overlooked in ZM despite the many different sequences you could take, I know it's possible.

[quote="Prime Hunter"]
Obviously a big one from your list that is a key element is the open exploration. It's kind of hard to do that if the story is going to be as important as they say, but if they can pull this off somehow a lot of fans will be pleased I'll bet.[/quote]

I think it is possible to have alot of story and be non-linear at the same time. I can't explain exactly how, I just have to trust in the genius of the amazingly talented people who are creating this game.  Perhaps the cut scenes will reveal info in a way that's clear enough to relay info, yet vague enough to account for what may or may not have happened earlier.  Kinda like the way in ZM when the chozo ghost gives you varia even though you skipped it earlier. Actually ZM is designed flawlessly for things like that - adding secret alternative paths for those who skipped screw attack or power bombs.  Maybe they can do that kind of clever accomodation, only this time with elements of the story instead.  So basically the same story would end up being told, but perhaps in a slightly different order depending on how badly you fuck up the sequence. When I marvel at how nothing was overlooked in ZM despite the many different sequences you could take, I know it's possible.