Reverse Boss Order in 0:43! (played in realtime)

2009-06-23 01:55:38 pm

Here is another goodie, the probaby most challenging and entertaining run form that exists for this game: Reverse Boss Order (short RBO)!

It features a new route optimized for minimal backtracking and item collection, that even skips the entire Maridia clean-up (something that was done only in TAS runs before), resulting in a extremely close Lower Norfair run and Ridley fight, both of which were literally survived by milliseconds. It also shows many rare speed-tricks, some of them only applicable for this specific route. Game completion is a low 0:43 (43:13).

Played to 100% in realtime, but with savestates for consistency and heavy luck manipulation, without which surviving would not be possible in this conditions. Recorded on Snes9x 1.43 v12 on the NTSC/(JU) ROM.

Enjoy!

Thread title:

attachment:

Saturn - SM RBO in 43 - Savestate run v1.zip

Tonski

Edit history:

Tonski: 2009-06-23 03:14:52 pm

2009-06-23 03:09:11 pm

This Snesx9 link isn't working to me.

EDIT:
Got it now..

EDIT:
Ok how come every time I use a SNES9X emulator to play movies it stops after a while even if I don't press pause and it just doesn't play anymore? If I use fast-forward it MIGHT or MIGHT NOT start playing again but this inconsistency of being able to watch a speedrun on this emulator it really annoying, I can't enjoy this run this way.

072

2009-06-23 07:45:33 pm

coral to complement blue

To be honest, I'm not really impressed. In fact, I'm a little annoyed by all of these "savestate-only" runs people have been doing lately. Both types of runs (realtime and TAS) are entertaining for their respective reasons. Realtime runs show playing skill, while TAS show extreme, inhuman speed; this type of run shows neither of those, so really, what's the point? It just comes off as cheating to me. RBO in particular is entertaining for its difficultly and need for consistency.

I can understand if you're just curious about the theoretical human limit, but what's with showcasing it as a run? (A challenging one, even!)

Opium

2009-06-23 08:44:13 pm

Quote from 072:

To be honest, I'm not really impressed. In fact, I'm a little annoyed by all of these "savestate-only" runs people have been doing lately. Both types of runs (realtime and TAS) are entertaining for their respective reasons. Realtime runs show playing skill, while TAS show extreme, inhuman speed; this type of run shows neither of those, so really, what's the point? It just comes off as cheating to me. RBO in particular is entertaining for its difficultly and need for consistency.

I can understand if you're just curious about the theoretical human limit, but what's with showcasing it as a run? (A challenging one, even!)

You should probably post your rules and requirements somewhere, otherwise everyone is just going to keep doing what they want to. How is everyone supposed to avoid annoying you if they aren't completely sure what your guidelines are?

namespoofer

2009-06-23 09:10:01 pm

Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.

Quote from Opium:

You should probably post your rules and requirements somewhere, otherwise everyone is just going to keep doing what they want to. How is everyone supposed to avoid annoying you if they aren't completely sure what your guidelines are?

..Smacked!!

Saturn - This is the time limit you think for the RBO? Assuming it is considering the words "heavy savestates". Just seems like :43 is not right. :S

072

2009-06-23 09:17:48 pm

coral to complement blue

Opium, if you don't want to annoy me, treating my opinion like an opinion is a good start. I don't recall ordering Saturn to follow my guidelines.

Saturn

2009-06-23 10:06:19 pm

Tonski:
No idea why the emulator doesn't work for you, sorry.

072:
Main reason I do them is to show entertaining runs that still have the natural limitations of human skill and reflexes, showing various speed tricks that could be of use for future speedrunner, and as you said, to give a good picture of the theoretical limit in this conditions. Another good thing about savestate runs is that they can be recorded in a relatively short amount of time (just a day or two for me), while still showing decent quality that would otherwise take months/years to achieve. That's basicly it.

Spoofer:
Please keep in mind that it's still played in realtime, with human limitations that are much slower than what you can do in pure TASes. As mentioned in the first post, the heavy savestate abuse was mainly done for optimal item drop manipulation, not to optimize the moves themself, which I intentionally prefer to keep as realistic to my unassisted SS runs pace-wise as possible. Of course the time can be improved by a more skilled speedrunner if he manages to get the same luck and consistency, but not by much more (2-3 minutes at most). Feel free to give it a try yourself to see. Smile

Tonski:
No idea why the emulator doesn't work for you, sorry.

072:
Main reason I do them is to show entertaining runs that still have the natural limitations of human skill and reflexes, showing various speed tricks that could be of use for future speedrunner, and as you said, to give a good picture of the theoretical limit in this conditions. Another good thing about savestate runs is that they can be recorded in a relatively short amount of time (just a day or two for me), while still showing decent quality that would otherwise take months/years to achieve. That's basicly it.

Spoofer:
Please keep in mind that it's still played in realtime, with human limitations that are much slower than what you can do in pure TASes. As mentioned in the first post, the heavy savestate abuse was mainly done for optimal item drop manipulation, not to optimize the moves themself, which I intentionally prefer to keep as realistic to my unassisted SS runs pace-wise as possible. Of course the time can be improved by a more skilled speedrunner if he manages to get the same luck and consistency, but not by much more (2-3 minutes at most). Feel free to give it a try yourself to see. :smile:

namespoofer

2009-06-23 10:36:44 pm

Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.

Quote from Saturn:

Feel free to give it a try yourself to see. Smile

Haha stop dipping into my coke supply.

And I knew it wasn't to optimize move styles.. still some moves were really impressive in realtime, savestate or not. >.>

Guardian Garr

Edit history:

Guardian Garr: 2009-06-24 04:15:49 am

2009-06-24 03:30:55 am

I personally use save states to optimize my real runs and to learn how to do a new stunt. A lot of the times, it takes me forever. Such as Shine Sparking then dashing across the giant metroid spike room before Draygon. That took me so many tries because I thought you had to wall jump really quickly. As far as I am concerned, which is mentioned, this is just to get a decent grasp on a real run. Save states are borderline cheating. I would never go as far as saying they are cheating.

All they do is let you reset to a previous position to do the same thing repetitively, with the restriction of your own capabilities, to eventually get it right. Luck Manipulation isn't cheating, but using Save States is just a short cut. Same as speeding up a game, it is a shortcut. I personally don't want to wait for 3 minutes to say the password on Earthbound. I would rather have it take 20 seconds. It saves the time you have in your life as far as I am concerned. Would you rather learn the route via saves or save states? Saves being 5-10 minutes per run just to get to the one part that you need work on, or would you rather save in front of that spot and save yourself a countless amount of hours? Even if the spot only requires you to leave and come back, you are saving a hell of a lot of time.

I guess that isn't the point though. I would still not call this cheating. In a TAS, sure it is in its own league, but they use Save States there as well. As far as I am concerned, slowing the game down is just the same as saving it wherever you want. I also believe Opium was being sarcastic. I personally see no reason to give a shit on how you feel about something that you only get annoyed by. If you get enough people to agree, than I guess people/me should say otherwise.

EDIT:
Also, you can't really believe something that one person says. Hotarubi could have easily used save states, not saying he did, but do you realize how easy it is to splice together Super Metroid? The door transitions are perfect for it. You just have to make sure you don't gain or lose anything if you decide to do it. Hotarubi is really good, and he can't truly prove it until he can get it on SDA. Not trying to toot my own horn here, but if I practiced for a while, I could beat Hotarubi's time by quite a long shot. Depending on what tricks I use of course.

I personally use save states to optimize my real runs and to learn how to do a new stunt. A lot of the times, it takes me forever. Such as Shine Sparking then dashing across the giant metroid spike room before Draygon. That took me so many tries because I thought you had to wall jump really quickly. As far as I am concerned, which is mentioned, this is just to get a decent grasp on a real run. Save states are borderline cheating. I would never go as far as saying they are cheating.

All they do is let you reset to a previous position to do the same thing repetitively, with the restriction of your own capabilities, to eventually get it right. Luck Manipulation isn't cheating, but using Save States is just a short cut. Same as speeding up a game, it is a shortcut. I personally don't want to wait for 3 minutes to say the password on Earthbound. I would rather have it take 20 seconds. It saves the time you have in your life as far as I am concerned. Would you rather learn the route via saves or save states? Saves being 5-10 minutes per run just to get to the one part that you need work on, or would you rather save in front of that spot and save yourself a countless amount of hours? Even if the spot only requires you to leave and come back, you are saving a hell of a lot of time.

I guess that isn't the point though. I would still not call this cheating. In a TAS, sure it is in its own league, but they use Save States there as well. As far as I am concerned, slowing the game down is just the same as saving it wherever you want. I also believe Opium was being sarcastic. I personally see no reason to give a shit on how you feel about something that you only get annoyed by. If you get enough people to agree, than I guess people/me should say otherwise.

EDIT:
Also, you can't really believe something that one person says. Hotarubi could have easily used save states, not saying he did, but do you realize how easy it is to splice together Super Metroid? The door transitions are perfect for it. You just have to make sure you don't gain or lose anything if you decide to do it. Hotarubi is really good, and he can't truly prove it until he can get it on SDA. Not trying to toot my own horn here, but if I practiced for a while, I could beat Hotarubi's time by quite a long shot. Depending on what tricks I use of course.

Quietus

2009-06-24 04:46:11 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

The difference is that his were recorded on a console, using the original hardware. He doesn't have the luxury of save-states and stuff.

Guardian Garr

2009-06-24 05:10:41 am

Quote from Quietus:

The difference is that his were recorded on a console, using the original hardware. He doesn't have the luxury of save-states and stuff.

Either way. Like I said, I never accused him of doing so. Just saying if he had used an emulator, he could have easily done the same thing.

Quietus

2009-06-24 06:23:33 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Yes, with his consistency for tricks, he could easily achieve his 0:49 100%, and no doubt beat it some more.

Reeve

2009-06-24 08:32:45 am

Quote from Tonski:

Ok how come every time I use a SNES9X emulator to play movies it stops after a while even if I don't press pause and it just doesn't play anymore?

This happens to me too only with Super Metroid, the other games work perfectly and never crashed. The game stops and the sound repeat the same note till the game starts again, but it only happens when i'm playing the movie. Don't know why but i already saw a lot of movies and even Saturn smvs, and i imagine that all the movies he does he uses the same emulator. But some movies work and some doesn't. I'm using Snes9x 1.43 v15 but i already downloaded the same version he was using and it doesn't work for me. When i was trying to watch NameSpoofer latest RBO this happened too, so i tried other versions and i had the same problem but with Snes9x 1.43 v14 the game stopped less times and when topped it was for a short time, so i could watch the movie.

Try other verions of the emulator, maybe you find one that works for you.

[quote="Tonski"]
Ok how come every time I use a SNES9X emulator to play movies it stops after a while even if I don't press pause and it just doesn't play anymore?
[/quote]

This happens to me too only with Super Metroid, the other games work perfectly and never crashed. The game stops and the sound repeat the same note till the game starts again, but it only happens when i'm playing the movie. Don't know why but i already saw a lot of movies and even Saturn smvs, and i imagine that all the movies he does he uses the same emulator. But some movies work and some doesn't. I'm using Snes9x 1.43 v15 but i already downloaded the same version he was using and it doesn't work for me. When i was trying to watch NameSpoofer latest RBO this happened too, so i tried other versions and i had the same problem but with Snes9x 1.43 v14 the game stopped less times and when topped it was for a short time, so i could watch the movie.

Try other verions of the emulator, maybe you find one that works for you.

Smokey

2009-06-24 09:14:49 am

Regardless of anything, these savestate-only vids are quickly done to show the theoretical human limit, while also being a tremendous guide available to any potential speedrunner out there.

I don't see any harm to see Saturn genuinely come here to show this to the community.

Quietus

2009-06-24 11:11:23 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I also noticed that Saturn used the same method as me to clear the early Super Missile room: [noembed][url= me, me![/url][/noembed]

Obob1

2009-06-26 02:39:59 pm

The shinespark through the Craterian gauntlet was pretty badass, especially with getting your life to be 29 to end it early. I don't recall seeing that in any previous runs.

Sneaky Paradox

2009-06-27 10:49:54 pm

Quit making these and get back to that Redesign TAS, Saturn :D...

Was a really nice speedrun.

Tonski

2009-06-28 09:28:40 am

Quote from Sneaky Paradox:

Quit making these and get back to that Redesign TAS, Saturn :D...

This. :D

Das

2009-07-08 07:12:43 am

Word.

Yeah,That was amazing.

I'm trying it myself now TAS style,
But even with savestates it's hard as hell >.>

BlackDays

Edit history:

BlackDays: 2009-07-12 11:52:19 pm

2009-07-12 11:43:03 pm

Hmm... There's a playback issue for me. For whatever reason, as soon as you land on Zebes and try to open the first door, you miss with your shot and you never make it past the ship landing room.

EDIT: Never mind. There was a problem on my end. Fixed.