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Quote from Odylg:
Quote from Miles:
To answer the question you're going to ask: No.

I find myself wondering what the question would've been

Any question.
I run this here hotel of an evening
Sounds about right
Edit history:
Odylg: 2015-12-28 09:19:32 pm
I run this here hotel of an evening
Sorry, my phone is dumb...
getting there...
Okay, so I woke up to a random thought. Would it be possible to randomize actual rooms in MP? As in, every door you opened could be any room in the game? I realize this could cause multiple dead ends throughout the adventure. Theoretically though, you could write some sort of algorithm to prevent this from happening. I'm thinking, that any room with only one entry/exit would be flagged and only used with big rooms with multiple exits. I haven't thought this through to maturity, but it could be a cool spin on the already cool random pickup scheme.

I see this as an evolution to a truly custom map scheme. We could piece together challenge maps and compete to beat them in a timely order. Imagine going trough one door in Magamoor, and coming out on the far side of Phendrana Drifts. It could be cool aesthetically, and even mechanically, if done right.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, random rooms would be cool to start. Planned rooms would be better in the long run. We could challenge people to: Can you you get from point A to point B without bombs? or space jump? etc.?
Seems unlikely, based on the description of this video:

Edit history:
Aruki: 2016-01-03 06:31:23 am
Aruki: 2016-01-03 06:28:09 am
The idea's been brought up before but I think it's off the table due to how difficult it would get to make everything work properly in new positions (eg the rooms wouldn't necessarily fit together anymore) and possibly for other reasons that I don't remember.

It's also actually rather difficult to move rooms around. The rooms are stored in world space in the files, so to move a room you have to actually individually move every component of the room (the geometry, the collision, each script object, etc). There's also some hidden difficulties you wouldn't think of immediately - for instance the collision uses an octree internally for fast collision tests and the original data doesn't work properly if the collision mesh has been rotated, so you have to reorder some of the data in the tree, and etc.
getting there...
Okay, cool, thanks for the response. I had doubts that the random room thing was an original thought, but I hadn't seen it brought up on this forum yet. It stinks to hear that it seems out of reach right now. Maybe someday a tool set can be written to pretty much automize the whole process. As you said, it sounds like it is pretty complicated. In any case, I would hope that custom rooms are a thing before random rooms are anyway.
I run this here hotel of an evening
Quote from BioSpark:
Seems unlikely, based on the description of this video:


That is pretty damn cool. Speaking of Echoes...
I’ve been having some trouble with the Echoes part of the 3.0 Randomizer. It usually seems to “randomize” with no problem. No error given or anything. Same when rebuilding. But then I try to load up the game and it crashes (dolphin) or doesn’t get past the black screen (wii).
I re-dumped mp2.iso thinking maybe it was caused by pak files previously used in an older randomizer version since mp2.iso itself runs fine. Tried again, same result.
Once it got stuck on “Setting up Pickup Data” during the randomization. After a bit it said “System.OutOfMemoryException”, then a seed number, then the chosen exclusions. That one oddly enough loads fine. HUD Popup Removal works, though things aren’t actually randomized.
That and area elevators don’t work:


The vid is sideways because my phone is dumb -_-

Each time I test something that actually loads I start a new game, so it shouldn't be a corrupted save file or anything like that.
And it only does this with Echoes. The first Prime hasn't given me any issues.

I’m still using the randomizer script to dump the iso, do I need to be doing it a different way? Or should I not be rebuilding with GCR?
What am I missing here?  Or is it an issue with the randomizer itself?

While I’m at it, is there still a way to ‘exclude all’ like with the earler version? Or would I have to put every exclusion (–e 0,1,2,3,4,5 etc)?
I'd like a version of the game with all of the items in their normal spots but the with HUD Popup removed.
I did that with Prime and it works well enough. Now if only i could get Echoes to cooperate.
IIRC MP2 has issues like that because the disc is damn near completely filled up just with the base game and the copied assets the randomizer creates push it over the limit. If you want to rebuild a new iso then I think using one of the settings (trimmed or untrimmed, don't remember specifically) fixes it. Failing that you could try deleting one of the music files. Not sure how that affects the game.
I run this here hotel of an evening
Tried trimming but it wasn't enough I guess; ended up deleting one of the multiplayer music files. Now it works. Thanks for the clarification and the workaround. Much appreciated
my umbrella goes directly to Bankai
if you've watched my streams, that's basically why the ending theme is different since i had the same problem and deleting music was the way to fix it.

looks like moving rooms around is really time consuming. it might work for a manual hack that moves things around but i can see why it wouldn't work for randomization.
Edit history:
Antidote: 2016-01-06 11:14:07 pm
Antidote: 2016-01-06 11:13:36 pm
Antidote: 2016-01-06 11:06:55 pm
If you're not burning it to DVD, removing the duplicates shouldn't affect the load times too much, but don't misunderstand, there will definitely be a slight increase. So that alone might help with such crashes.

Again: Removing duplicates will lower overall disc usage but WILL affect load times slightly!
MP2 is still a big game so don't go thinking that removing the duplicates will magically give you a GB of storage, at most you'll gain 1 or 2 hundred megs.

EDIT:
In regards to moving rooms: while it's probably not a goal of PWE, due to how URDE and hecl operate, collision, frustum culling octrees, etc. will need to be recalculated, so it's certainly possible to move rooms around and reorient them, however for a simple randomizer, it's WAY out of scope.

EDIT2:
To put how large MP2 is into perspective, currently a completely converted hecl project for MP2 is about 2.1GB, that's roughly DOUBLE the content of the game, and on top of that, the .blends are compressed to save space. Uncompressed, uncooked MP2 weighs in at a hefty 16GB. This size will increase slightly as more formats are added to the dataspec.
Edit history:
Aruki: 2016-01-07 03:35:58 am
PWE will be able to move rooms, yes. I was just explaining why it might not be as easy as it sounds.
Yeah, quite a bit of little technical details that makes it rather impractical for a randomizer.
Also, the duplicates I was talking about aren't the regular pak duplicates. The randomizer moves pickups between paks, which requires moving the resources used by those pickups into different paks, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't also remove assets from paks that they're no longer being used in, which results in more space being used up overall than the base game.
Edit history:
Antidote: 2016-01-07 08:28:39 am
Antidote: 2016-01-07 08:27:12 am
I wasn't referring to randomizer duplicates though, I was talking about duplicates in general ;P

That being said, perhaps the randomizer's pak functionality should be made a bit more intelligent?
ah ok, I thought you were responding to me but rereading I see you were just suggesting another way to reduce the filesize, so I think I misunderstood you. Sorry bout that.
Yeah moving rooms is a huge ordeal (as you can see in the video miles posted, he didn't rotate the 'shot collision' which is entirely separate from the 'actual collision') involving a crazy amount of stuff.

Also LOL @ that video. You could delete the GMFC Compound cutscene and free up 13% of the disc space.
Edit history:
Antidote: 2016-01-08 01:37:43 am
Antidote: 2016-01-08 01:35:42 am
Antidote: 2016-01-08 01:35:04 am
Quote from Baby Sheegoth:
Yeah moving rooms is a huge ordeal (as you can see in the video miles posted, he didn't rotate the 'shot collision' which is entirely separate from the 'actual collision') involving a crazy amount of stuff.

Also LOL @ that video. You could delete the GMFC Compound cutscene and free up 13% of the disc space.


Shot collision is still based on the same collision data, it's just the way the broadphase of physics engine handles projectiles that is different, (it only uses AROT afaict rather than also using the collision octree)

Collision in MP is a 3 stage process, first it checks to see where the object is in relation to the room (called the primary broadphase), it uses the AROT (ARea OcTree) to handle do this, after that it passes this to collision data which then loads up the appropriate node, from there it does a secondary broadphase which tells the engine which leaf it's in, after this it does a narrow phase using the actual collision vertices/edges/triangles which is what does the actual interactions between objects.

Shot collision completely bypasses either the primary or secondary broadphase, I'm pretty sure it's the secondary, though it's been a while since I looked at the code for it.
I'm pretty sure it's not the same collision data since projectiles in MP2/3 can collide with regular world models that don't have collision, which would be why it needs AROT to work properly. (I don't think that's the case in Prime 1 though.)
If the objects don't have collision data it's probably just using the AABB, I highly doubt they'd change the collision system all that much, especially adding a totally separate codepath for something that was already working extremely well.
Edit history:
KnopeX: 2016-02-01 06:52:38 am
The &&systemdata folder for Echoes is missing; GCRebuilder says the file "amb_x_elevator_lp_02.dsp" is missing, but this isn't in Echoes, only in Prime 1. I'm just blind to find the right systemdata folder? I know what i have to do with, so.. please help.

Edit: Nevermind, i have to ignore game.toc and delete multi-defbgm32.dsp and the Rebuilder rebuilds correctly.
I have a problem using the .EXE file. I double click it, it works, and i see the usage shown. But when i type ANYTHING in, it closes itself.

The folder that was inside the .ZIP download was a seperate folder from the extracted files from MP1. It's probably not the extraction, because it only closes after pressing a type-able key or [ENTER].
You need to run in it from command prompt.  Just type Randomizer.exe followed by the conditions you want.
Quote from Interslice:
You need to run in it from command prompt.  Just type Randomizer.exe followed by the conditions you want.

Do i have to change the directory? Do i have to type the directory into CMD?

When i don't do either, it says "Randomizer.exe is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.", so i'm still confused