R.I.P. Super Metroid

2004-09-26 11:50:54 pm

Quote from Yoshi348:

The only real difference in this category between emulators and consoles is that it doesn't take too much ingenuity to make a flawless movie that doesn't skip or jump, while it's downright impossible to do with a console.

for some people, 'impossible' is nothing ... i would agree with this only to a point, the point that someone becomes talented enough to make a video of a real game that does not 'skip or jump.' unfortunately, there are several people on this forum capable of making such a video, myself included. however, i'd like to think that, since i know how to make one, i also know how to tell when one's been made.

Yoshi348

2004-09-27 01:55:31 pm

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Ready and willing.

Yikes.

That's real skillz.

nate

2004-09-27 03:51:49 pm

and real expensive equipment and too much time, yeah.

elyscape

2004-09-27 08:12:23 pm

Quote from njahnke:

and real expensive equipment and too much time, yeah.

Actually, I imagine that, if you had enough time, you could (using cheap equipment, even) mod the SNES to have a device that would allow you to Save State... on the console. It wouldn't be that hard, either. Just dump the entirety of the RAM into some chip somewhere at the press of one button, and then shove it all back at the press of another button. I can imagine someone building one in their free time, even.

Yoshi348

2004-09-27 08:22:06 pm

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Ready and willing.

Yikes. Anyway, at least doing it on the emulator is significantly less work, and criminals and non-prankish hoaxsters tend to be lazy bastards more often than not.

elyscape

2004-09-27 08:30:04 pm

Quote from Yoshi348:

Yikes. Anyway, at least doing it on the emulator is significantly less work, and criminals and non-prankish hoaxsters tend to be lazy kraid more often than not.

Actually, I've thought about building something like my idea except for some random other system, the main prerequisite being that I own it. I sometimes get annoyed about having to do half an hour's work all over again when I make one freaking mistake. I'd use it for legitimite reasons only, of course.

nate

2004-09-27 08:42:44 pm

good, we have a fourth (by my count) way to cheat using consoles ... :/

elyscape

2004-09-27 08:44:00 pm

Quote from njahnke:

good, we have a fourth (by my count) way to cheat using consoles ... :/

What are the other three?

nate

2004-09-27 08:56:31 pm

you actually think i'm going to share that with the world? :P

GreenMamba

2004-09-27 09:02:44 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

I had a false hope you would.

elyscape

2004-09-27 10:04:32 pm

Quote from njahnke:

you actually think i'm going to share that with the world? :P

Well, PM/IRC, then? I'm mildly curious, and I pretty much suck at speed running stuff anyway.

Yoshi348

2004-09-27 10:06:56 pm

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Ready and willing.

Well, one uber obvious way would be with AR...

elyscape

2004-09-27 10:14:32 pm

Quote from Yoshi348:

Well, one uber obvious way would be with AR...

Well, yes. But does that allow Save State type things? Or are we talking about cheating in general?

[EDIT] On a side note, it'd be interesting to see someone make a fake speed run from scratch. That is, using sprites and such, actually build a movie. If someone could do that and make it actually act the way the game would.... that'd be freaking awesome. I'd have to give them a lot of money (translation: about $10). [/EDIT]

Laney

(user is banned)

2004-10-02 09:58:46 am

Uhm... Sorry elyscape, I can't follow your ideas...
Please explain it differently.

elyscape

2004-10-02 12:07:26 pm

Quote from Laney:

Uhm... Sorry elyscape, I can't follow your ideas...
Please explain it differently.

Which idea? The "Speed run from scratch" idea? Or one of my other ones?

SSJHibiki

2004-10-03 05:17:34 am

Meh, as long as you have fun speedrunning, I don't see the problem. When fusion came out on the ROM, I went through it pretty fast for a first run with no help (a little over three hours), but I gradually got the time lower and lower by just practicing and thinking up routes and tricks for getting through the areas faster.

Eventually I reached a peak of about 1 hour and some odd minutes with most of the items collected (mostly due to a first period class where I had finished the entire semester's work in a couple of months, so I basically had an hour and a half of free time). I then jumped online to compare my time (any%) with others, and came to the conclusion that my best time was a whopping over ten minutes the best time.

Was I a little crushed? Yes, I couldn't really see how I could make my run faster (I was still new to speedrunning the Metroid games at the time)but I didn't really let it get to me. Afterwards I beat the game a few more times before trading it in (after realizing I would never get a top time and wanting to upload a virus to Adam, let it destroy his memory banks, and then blow him up with a power bomb, I saw no reason to keep the game any longer) and decided to just be happy with the progress I made.

Fast forward 2 more years, and I did the same thing. Beat the game on the ROM with no help, bought the real game, and slowly made progress. I eventually got my natural route time to a little over one hour, and then explored the Ridley before Kraid SB. Deja vu again, my best time was 42 minutes compared to a 29.

The moral of the story? Just play for fun and don't let other people ruin the game for you. You've done some pretty freaking amazing runs, and they will always be better than a time attack in terms of a showcase of pure human skills.

BTW, I'm new here. You all might have seen me talking/lurking in the IRC channel, but this is my first post on the forums. Hi! :D

Meh, as long as you have fun speedrunning, I don't see the problem. When fusion came out on the ROM, I went through it pretty fast for a first run with no help (a little over three hours), but I gradually got the time lower and lower by just practicing and thinking up routes and tricks for getting through the areas faster.

Eventually I reached a peak of about 1 hour and some odd minutes with most of the items collected (mostly due to a first period class where I had finished the entire semester's work in a couple of months, so I basically had an hour and a half of free time). I then jumped online to compare my time (any%) with others, and came to the conclusion that my best time was a whopping over ten minutes the best time.

Was I a little crushed? Yes, I couldn't really see how I could make my run faster (I was still new to speedrunning the Metroid games at the time)but I didn't really let it get to me. Afterwards I beat the game a few more times before trading it in (after realizing I would never get a top time and wanting to upload a virus to Adam, let it destroy his memory banks, and then blow him up with a power bomb, I saw no reason to keep the game any longer) and decided to just be happy with the progress I made.

Fast forward 2 more years, and I did the same thing. Beat the game on the ROM with no help, bought the real game, and slowly made progress. I eventually got my natural route time to a little over one hour, and then explored the Ridley before Kraid SB. Deja vu again, my best time was 42 minutes compared to a 29.

The moral of the story? Just play for fun and don't let other people ruin the game for you. You've done some pretty freaking amazing runs, and they will always be better than a time attack in terms of a showcase of pure human skills.

BTW, I'm new here. You all might have seen me talking/lurking in the IRC channel, but this is my first post on the forums. Hi!  :D

billygoten

2004-10-16 11:13:49 pm

I'm pretty new to this site, and comparatively, even speed running, but I've been a gamer for nearly all of my 21 years.

I've read and thought about this issue and I'd like to offer another viewpoint on the matter.

I would not agree that a near perfect emulation run does anything whatsoever to discredit any work in any form of the legit speed runners. As a computer programmer, it's fairly clear that emu speed runs and console runs are distinctly different areas. The value in console runs is the skill; the effort and thought and time. Using an emulator, although it may be valuable in its own right (someone stated as entertainment purposes only), but it's no way near the value of a run composed of blood, sweat, and tears.

The important thing to realize is that the awe in a legit run comes from the human, and in that, imperfect factor. The whole point is to do something so well and to overcome that imperfection as much as possible through thought and practice. The translation from the human element and the physical act of playing to the result is greatly removed when using an emulator. In that sense, it is easy to see an emu run as it truly is. With an emulator, you're manipulating 1s and 0s; nothing more. But <b>playing</b> the game is more than just manipulating 1s and 0s in that it is subject to human flaw inherent in the act of playing with no take-backs, the way the game is intended to be played.

Most people who won't recognize an emu run from a legit run don't know enough about speed runs to matter anyway. It's the gamers; the ones that have played this game and understand the way it works and who have looked up information about SM that matter the most.

To be honest, I simply owned SM and played it only a few times before I began speed running. I began speed running partly amused by the prospect of beating the game without the Grappling Hook and partly just to see how fast I could beat the game with no other catches. I was surprised to find out later that my very fastest run was crushed not only in speed, but in another area as well - It was Red Scarlet's 100% run a while back that came in at around :59 (I think).

This wasn't disheartening in the least. It was awe-inspiring. Between Red Scarlet and Smokey, I've been inspired to continue, and I'm closing in on some good numbers.

You guys shouldn't be too concerned with emus. I can imagine how I'd feel, and although it would bother me a little bit, it would be much more important to me to know that there are players out there who watch your video and go tell everyone how awesome you are. It's great to think that I've watched you two play and thought "Man, I'll never be able to do that" and now I find a lot of it second nature.

I can see some value in a perfect emulation run, but that can never match my initial response to seeing Scarlet's 100% video (and note this applies to Smokey and everyone else who works hard on legit Metroid runs).

From a post I made on March 7, 2004 : "Red Scarlet is my hero forever".

I'm pretty new to this site, and comparatively, even speed running, but I've been a gamer for nearly all of my 21 years.

I've read and thought about this issue and I'd like to offer another viewpoint on the matter.

I would not agree that a near perfect emulation run does anything whatsoever to discredit any work in any form of the legit speed runners. As a computer programmer, it's fairly clear that emu speed runs and console runs are distinctly different areas. The value in console runs is the skill; the effort and thought and time. Using an emulator, although it may be valuable in its own right (someone stated as entertainment purposes only), but it's no way near the value of a run composed of blood, sweat, and tears.

The important thing to realize is that the awe in a legit run comes from the human, and in that, imperfect factor. The whole point is to do something so well and to overcome that imperfection as much as possible through thought and practice. The translation from the human element and the physical act of playing to the result is greatly removed when using an emulator. In that sense, it is easy to see an emu run as it truly is. With an emulator, you're manipulating 1s and 0s; nothing more. But <b>playing</b> the game is more than just manipulating 1s and 0s in that it is subject to human flaw inherent in the act of playing with no take-backs, the way the game is intended to be played.

Most people who won't recognize an emu run from a legit run don't know enough about speed runs to matter anyway. It's the gamers; the ones that have played this game and understand the way it works and who have looked up information about SM that matter the most.

To be honest, I simply owned SM and played it only a few times before I began speed running. I began speed running partly amused by the prospect of beating the game without the Grappling Hook and partly just to see how fast I could beat the game with no other catches. I was surprised to find out later that my very fastest run was crushed not only in speed, but in another area as well - It was Red Scarlet's 100% run a while back that came in at around :59 (I think).

This wasn't disheartening in the least. It was awe-inspiring. Between Red Scarlet and Smokey, I've been inspired to continue, and I'm closing in on some good numbers.

You guys shouldn't be too concerned with emus. I can imagine how I'd feel, and although it would bother me a little bit, it would be much more important to me to know that there are players out there who watch your video and go tell everyone how awesome you are. It's great to think that I've watched you two play and thought "Man, I'll never be able to do that" and now I find a lot of it second nature.

I can see some value in a perfect emulation run, but that can never match my initial response to seeing Scarlet's 100% video (and note this applies to Smokey and everyone else who works hard on legit Metroid runs).

From a post I made on March 7, 2004 : "Red Scarlet is my hero forever".

nate

2004-10-16 11:43:45 pm

consider yourself lucky - you can count yourself in the ranks of the invincible.

Red Scarlet

2004-10-17 02:38:04 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Like I said countless times..before last October (wow crap that was a whole year ago now) I knew almost nothing 'advanced' about the game, what with my owny ~2:30 100% I got in 2002, the last time I played the game before 10/03. You don't have to be uber good to become ok.

It's not that hard to do the stuff I do, told you guys. Idea

Good luck with what you go for in the game.