R.I.P. Super Metroid

2004-08-08 11:23:35 am

soaking through

Quote from Ekarderif:

Emulated runs suck. Real runs rule. There's one exception to this: Sesshoumaru. I WANT MORE SESS.

Seriously though, Swordsman in Sable made a great analogy. I remember when that Super Mario 3 run was awesome. As soon as I learned it was cheated, I wiped it clean from my computer. But RS, she stays forever ;)

You do know the guy who did that SM3 run had it up on his website from the beginning, and never actually said it was real, right? It was never meant to be a show of skill, but instead was just for fun and was meant to be simply amusing and funny...

Your reaction seems a little hostile for the circumstances...

Goofyman_S

2004-08-09 11:27:01 pm

Quote from Izo:

Quote from Ekarderif:

Emulated runs suck. Real runs rule. There's one exception to this: Sesshoumaru. I WANT MORE SESS.

Seriously though, Swordsman in Sable made a great analogy. I remember when that Super Mario 3 run was awesome. As soon as I learned it was cheated, I wiped it clean from my computer. But RS, she stays forever ;)

You do know the guy who did that SM3 run had it up on his website from the beginning, and never actually said it was real, right? It was never meant to be a show of skill, but instead was just for fun and was meant to be simply amusing and funny...

Your reaction seems a little hostile for the circumstances...

He said that he used a tool-assisted emulator and over 30,000 re-records to make it as perfect as possible (his time and score have been outscored, though)

He never once made the remark that it was real. He even apologized for the confusion after people began to say it was fake and all. If they had read the site, wouldn't have happened.

[quote="Izo"][quote="Ekarderif"]Emulated runs suck. Real runs rule. There's one exception to this: Sesshoumaru. I WANT MORE SESS.

Seriously though, Swordsman in Sable made a great analogy. I remember when that Super Mario 3 run was awesome. As soon as I learned it was cheated, I wiped it clean from my computer. But RS, she stays forever ;)[/quote]

You do know the guy who did that SM3 run had it up on his website from the beginning, and never actually said it was real, right?  It was never meant to be a show of skill, but instead was just for fun and was meant to be simply amusing and funny...

Your reaction seems a little hostile for the circumstances...[/quote]

He said that he used a tool-assisted emulator and over 30,000 re-records to make it as perfect as possible (his time and score have been outscored, though)

He never once made the remark that it was real. He even apologized for the confusion after people began to say it was fake and all. If they had read the site, wouldn't have happened.

Yoshi348

2004-08-10 02:08:22 am

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Ready and willing.

Don't blame it too much on the people... this was mostly propagated through the internet in true chain letter form and the original warnings or link was lost either due to being taken out of context and/or intentional stripping by those people who want to make stories better, and hell with the reality.

sdwoodchuck

2004-08-10 03:53:59 am

Okay, I want to try and gain a little perspective on this, so keep with me on this. Please keep in mind that I don't mean this to be a debate or an argument, I'm really am trying to understand the circumstances.

The problem appears to be that tool-assisted speed runs are out-performing pure speed runs, and it makes the pure speed run look bad by comparison. These runs use savestates and/or slowdown to achieve what is vastly improbable for a real person to do. The argument seems to go: Even if these people never claim to be doing it legit, people who watch it don't know, and assume that it's real, so we lose credit.

RS, you did a video of a 2 item low percent run of the original Metroid, after reading about other low percent runs of the game. You used savestates to achieve what no normal person could probably achieve in the game, and as such, made everyone else's Metroid low percent runs look pretty awful by comparison. You say quite clearly that it is a technical demonstration though, and shouldn't really be compared.

My question is, is it really that different? Low percent runners take their work just as seriously as speed runners. I'm curious as to what the difference is that makes you so upset over this. Both your Metroid low percent, and these new Super Metroid speed runs state right from the beginning that they are technical demonstrations. What is it that is so much worse about the speed running demos?

Okay, I want to try and gain a little perspective on this, so keep with me on this.  Please keep in mind that I don't mean this to be a debate or an argument, I'm really am trying to understand the circumstances.

The problem appears to be that tool-assisted speed runs are out-performing pure speed runs, and it makes the pure speed run look bad by comparison.  These runs use savestates and/or slowdown to achieve what is vastly improbable for a real person to do.  The argument seems to go:  Even if these people never claim to be doing it legit, people who watch it don't know, and assume that it's real, so we lose credit.

RS, you did a video of a 2 item low percent run of the original Metroid, after reading about other low percent runs of the game.  You used savestates to achieve what no normal person could probably achieve in the game, and as such, made everyone else's Metroid low percent runs look pretty awful by comparison.  You say quite clearly that it is a technical demonstration though, and shouldn't really be compared.

My question is, is it really that different?  Low percent runners take their work just as seriously as speed runners.  I'm curious as to what the difference is that makes you so upset over this.  Both your Metroid low percent, and these new Super Metroid speed runs state right from the beginning that they are technical demonstrations.  What is it that is so much worse about the speed running demos?

Red Scarlet

2004-08-10 04:46:51 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I was just curious if it could be beaten at all with those 2 items, and I knew it would be too hard for me to try on my cart, so I simply did a test of it to bother. It is by no means fast, as shown through all my energy gathering and such.

No one has done low % runs yet on video either; my M1 thing was simply a 'lets find out if its even technically doable at all'. It wasn't pretty on purpose; as it was fake and never meant to be any sort of record, or entertainment.

All it is is a "how", and not a "how and fast and deceiving".

If that makes me a hypocrite, fine. I know the difference between just seeing if it is even possible to do at all from obliterating the competitive scene in a game.

Actually, Tim has tried doing the 2 percent on his cart (or MP version of M1), and got to Kraid I think.

CALFoolio

2004-08-11 01:07:04 pm

that sux =\

good thing there isn't a gc emulator out.

ajbolt89

2004-08-11 02:50:13 pm

lol no way

...yet. It's in the works.

Edit: Best sig ever, Cal.

sdkess

2004-08-11 06:32:01 pm

RS makes a similar point to one that I've discussed before at another site. Using save states and slomo as a tool for research or practice is a-ok by me. To use an analogy, I see it in a similar way to how scientists and medical students use cadavers. This is considered acceptable usage by almost everyone whereas mutilating a corpse for profit or fun (?) is not acceptable and is downright sick.

Similarly, you have to draw a line somewhere for acceptable usage of emulator features, and using save states and slomo to directly compete at the thing most popular among legit players (speed running) is dispicable. The aim of the tool assisted runners is the same as ours despite what they say. They want to produce an incredibly played run as do we. They just do it in ways that are unfair and generally not accepted in any competitive gaming community. These runs overshadow legit ones, and they devalue the hard work that people like RS put into this.

Personally, I don't blame RS one bit for retiring. I was tempted to do the same, but I decided against it since playing the classics still provides me with fun and satisfaction. I sincerely doubt that I'll work as hard to achieve though since "perfect" runs have already been attained and viewed by everyone else. It just isn't worth it.

RS makes a similar point to one that I've discussed before at another site. Using save states and slomo as a tool for research or practice is a-ok by me. To use an analogy, I see it in a similar way to how scientists and medical students use cadavers. This is considered acceptable usage by almost everyone whereas mutilating a corpse for profit or fun (?) is not acceptable and is downright sick.

Similarly, you have to draw a line somewhere for acceptable usage of emulator features, and using save states and slomo to directly compete at the thing most popular among legit players (speed running) is dispicable. The aim of the tool assisted runners is the same as ours despite what they say. They want to produce an incredibly played run as do we. They just do it in ways that are unfair and generally not accepted in any competitive gaming community. These runs overshadow legit ones, and they devalue the hard work that people like RS put into this.

Personally, I don't blame RS one bit for retiring. I was tempted to do the same, but I decided against it since playing the classics still provides me with fun and satisfaction. I sincerely doubt that I'll work as hard to achieve though since "perfect" runs have already been attained and viewed by everyone else. It just isn't worth it.

Swordsman in Sable

2004-08-12 01:38:46 am

Quote from sdkess:

To use an analogy, I see it in a similar way to how scientists and medical students use cadavers. This is considered acceptable usage by almost everyone whereas mutilating a corpse for profit or fun (?) is not acceptable and is downright sick.

Similarly, you have to draw a line somewhere for acceptable usage of emulator features, and using save states and slomo to directly compete at the thing most popular among legit players (speed running) is despicable.

Mmm, very well said.

CALFoolio

2004-08-13 01:50:55 pm

technically, medical research on a corpse is still wrong if the person or the family didn't consent to it.

imo, emu speed runs are fine if they're separated from non-emu runs.

ajbolt89

2004-08-13 02:15:03 pm

lol no way

Which for the most part they're not.

sdkess

2004-08-13 08:42:57 pm

Quote:

technically, medical research on a corpse is still wrong if the person or the family didn't consent to it.

True, although the word "cadaver" implies consent so I didn't think it was necessary to state it. I should have stuck with that word for the whole analogy to make that clear. My bad.

Quote:

imo, emu speed runs are fine if they're separated from non-emu runs.

A lot of legit gamers feel the same way although most of these people are not very involved in classic gaming. It will be interesting to see how these people react once their communities start to feel the effects of emulator runs. It reminds me of the old isolationists in the US from the World War 2 era. They didn't care much about the war since it wasn't "their" problem, but they changed their tune once Pearl Harbor got bombed.

Separating the two types of runs is an acceptable solution though since it's clear that emu runs are not going away. The emu people have improved in this area although they have not always been so forthcoming which has often caused me to wonder about their motives. At best they've been irresponsible in their distribution. I'd rather not discuss details though since it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.

[quote]technically, medical research on a corpse is still wrong if the person or the family didn't consent to it.[/quote]
True, although the word "cadaver" implies consent so I didn't think it was necessary to state it. I should have stuck with that word for the whole analogy to make that clear. My bad.

[quote]imo, emu speed runs are fine if they're separated from non-emu runs.[/quote]
A lot of legit gamers feel the same way although most of these people are not very involved in classic gaming. It will be interesting to see how these people react once their communities start to feel the effects of emulator runs. It reminds me of the old isolationists in the US from the World War 2 era. They didn't care much about the war since it wasn't "their" problem, but they changed their tune once Pearl Harbor got bombed.

Separating the two types of runs is an acceptable solution though since it's clear that emu runs are not going away. The emu people have improved in this area although they have not always been so forthcoming which has often caused me to wonder about their motives. At best they've been irresponsible in their distribution. I'd rather not discuss details though since it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.

Goofyman_S

2004-08-14 04:46:27 am

Quote from CALFoolio:

that sux =\

good thing there isn't a gc emulator out.

Actually, there is one in progress: http://www.dolphin-emu.com/index.php

GSGold

2004-08-20 06:19:47 pm

Quote from RS Bulleta:

"how and fast and deceiving".

Wow, sometime when I wasn't looking, emulators vids were ment to just deceive people into thinking they're legit.

Bladegash

2004-08-23 06:43:50 pm

Quote from GSGold:

Quote from RS Bulleta:

"how and fast and deceiving".

Wow, sometime when I wasn't looking, emulators vids were ment to just deceive people into thinking they're legit.

Someone doesn't know the definition of 'emulator.' >_>

Yoshi348

2004-08-23 09:44:45 pm

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Ready and willing.

Well, yeah, but that's refering to the... nevermind. This is getting to be a crapshoot. Unless you have mind reading powers, it's hard to tell whether when the video made the rounds, the creator was trying to pass it off as real, or somebody else stripped off the disclamer to make it more interesting. (If you don't think people in transit don't do that crap, you don't know modern urban legendry.)

Daniel, Lord Bahamut

2004-09-23 02:14:44 am

Mega Flare

You know, I've been watching the run in question, and I find nothing that sets it apart from any legit run currently available. No new tricks are used; it's basically the same moves/route anyone else would use, only faster. Faster, yes, but not more impressive in any way. Console runs require real skill; emu runs only require vast amounts of free time coupled with a lack of social life.

Bladegash

2004-09-26 05:40:18 pm

Emulator runs can still be considered legitimate, though it depends on the emulator used now, it seems.

Ekarderif

2004-09-26 07:58:00 pm

Like, Sess doesn't really use the emulator for any bullshitting. Each segment he pulls is done in one continuous fluid with no induced slowdowns. Granted there are slowdowns but that's just because VBA is kinda lame :P. He used save-states to figure out battle tactics as well, but anyone can do that. So basically, go Sess :D. Speaking of which, where the hell is he?

nate

2004-09-26 07:59:10 pm

we're not sure.

and b.gash, how do you define legitimate?

Bladegash

2004-09-26 08:03:39 pm

I believe a Zelda run or two on SDA was done using the Collector's Edition, which is just an emulator playing those games, and I'd define those as legtitmate.

nate

2004-09-26 08:10:26 pm

ah, gotcha. thanks for the clarification.

GreenMamba

2004-09-26 08:40:10 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

Quote from Ekarderif:

Speaking of which, where the hell is he?

He tends to disappear and reappear. It's like he knows we're talking about him, and, all of a sudden, poof, he appears.

Yoshi348

2004-09-26 09:21:08 pm

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Ready and willing.

SDA specifically said in it's rules list (which seems to have vanished) that "official" emulators are allowed. That's kind of arbitary when it's put like that, but if this reasoning still holds, the whole problem was that emulator movie files don't have any record of slowdown in them. Slowdown depends entirely on what system you have, and your settings. However, on most "official" emulators, there is no slowdown, and each player using the emulator has the same system and settings.

Of course, the category of illigitimate that's covered here doesn't fall under that. However, it'd be deemed illigitimate even if someone managed to cheat the same way on a console; it's too easy to tell it's perfect. The only real difference in this category between emulators and consoles is that it doesn't take too much ingenuity to make a flawless movie that doesn't skip or jump, while it's downright impossible to do with a console.

Radix

2004-09-26 11:49:28 pm

Quote from Yoshi348:

SDA specifically said in it's rules list (which seems to have vanished)

If by vanished you mean, where it's always been then sure.